Destaggering Tires on C36
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Super Member
Joined: Aug 2009
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From: Oakland
W210 DRFT BNZ
Destaggering Tires on C36
Back from autocross. Nice reminder of how much of a boat the W202 really is.
Onto business: the wheel setup itself will remain staggered at 18x8.5 and 18x9.5, but the tires need to be equal or nearly equal section widths. My car plows like a hog. So bad, it is embarrassing.
I assume not many of us AMG W202 owners track these cars, which is totally understandable, and would explain the lack of concern (that and people proudly running 265's in the rear).
So! Knowing im running stock springs on #1 pads in the front and only moderate lowering in the rear, what is the widest size I can use all around to completely avoid rubbing issues in hard cornering?
I was thinking 245. The rear tire should stretch that mildly to help with stability\tire roll. Any thoughts?
Onto business: the wheel setup itself will remain staggered at 18x8.5 and 18x9.5, but the tires need to be equal or nearly equal section widths. My car plows like a hog. So bad, it is embarrassing.
I assume not many of us AMG W202 owners track these cars, which is totally understandable, and would explain the lack of concern (that and people proudly running 265's in the rear).
So! Knowing im running stock springs on #1 pads in the front and only moderate lowering in the rear, what is the widest size I can use all around to completely avoid rubbing issues in hard cornering?
I was thinking 245. The rear tire should stretch that mildly to help with stability\tire roll. Any thoughts?
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
Back from autocross. Nice reminder of how much of a boat the W202 really is.
Onto business: the wheel setup itself will remain staggered at 18x8.5 and 18x9.5, but the tires need to be equal or nearly equal section widths. My car plows like a hog. So bad, it is embarrassing.
I assume not many of us AMG W202 owners track these cars, which is totally understandable, and would explain the lack of concern (that and people proudly running 265's in the rear).
So! Knowing im running stock springs on #1 pads in the front and only moderate lowering in the rear, what is the widest size I can use all around to completely avoid rubbing issues in hard cornering?
I was thinking 245. The rear tire should stretch that mildly to help with stability\tire roll. Any thoughts?
Onto business: the wheel setup itself will remain staggered at 18x8.5 and 18x9.5, but the tires need to be equal or nearly equal section widths. My car plows like a hog. So bad, it is embarrassing.
I assume not many of us AMG W202 owners track these cars, which is totally understandable, and would explain the lack of concern (that and people proudly running 265's in the rear).
So! Knowing im running stock springs on #1 pads in the front and only moderate lowering in the rear, what is the widest size I can use all around to completely avoid rubbing issues in hard cornering?
I was thinking 245. The rear tire should stretch that mildly to help with stability\tire roll. Any thoughts?
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05 c55 silver, 98 Imperial Red C43
^^ 
Please do if you love doing it. Id rather see people track w\e they have then have them go out and be another M3 owner(no offense). W202s have lots of potential
Even stock, it handles decent. No offense but it might be you
Running larger wheels on stock suspension only makes it worse tho. I would suggest getting stiffer shocks and springs, but before you do put your stock wheels back on and get to know your car a bit better.
And for your info, staggered is way better when it comes to handling. I run 225 in front and 265 in the rear on stiffer suspension and my car handles so much better then it did when it was stock.
U know you are a good driver when you can take any car and handle it at its limit. Until then just take it slow and learn with what you have. Going out there and buying an M3 for example just coz it already handles awesome wont make you a good driver in the long run.
Please do if you love doing it. Id rather see people track w\e they have then have them go out and be another M3 owner(no offense). W202s have lots of potential
Even stock, it handles decent. No offense but it might be you
Running larger wheels on stock suspension only makes it worse tho. I would suggest getting stiffer shocks and springs, but before you do put your stock wheels back on and get to know your car a bit better.
And for your info, staggered is way better when it comes to handling. I run 225 in front and 265 in the rear on stiffer suspension and my car handles so much better then it did when it was stock.
U know you are a good driver when you can take any car and handle it at its limit. Until then just take it slow and learn with what you have. Going out there and buying an M3 for example just coz it already handles awesome wont make you a good driver in the long run.
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From: SCV SoCal
2002 CLK430
I’m a fan of tire temps telling me what the suspension is doing. If you have a pyrometer, post the numbers. If not, you may want to buy one. A pyrometer will pay for itself in no time. Most everything else is guesswork. I’m also a fan of making one change at a time or copying someone else’s setup – provided theirs works.
Everything else being equal, the front is too stiff. I have no idea what sized tires you’re running, but lets assume 225/45-17 fronts and 245/40-17 out back. The first change I’d make is to increase the front tire pressure. I’d take it back out and see what that buys. From there I’d start decreasing the rear tire pressure. If it still plows and you still have the OE springs, I’d have the OE front springs tested, and compare those numbers against the H&R front springs. The softest of the two would go back in. Still plows? Test the OE rears against the H&R rears. The stiffer of those two would go back in. Still plows? New rear sway bar bushings. At this point, it sounds like the front needs more grip, but that could be due to a bad footprint. A pyrometer would tell you all about the footprint.
Everything else being equal, the front is too stiff. I have no idea what sized tires you’re running, but lets assume 225/45-17 fronts and 245/40-17 out back. The first change I’d make is to increase the front tire pressure. I’d take it back out and see what that buys. From there I’d start decreasing the rear tire pressure. If it still plows and you still have the OE springs, I’d have the OE front springs tested, and compare those numbers against the H&R front springs. The softest of the two would go back in. Still plows? Test the OE rears against the H&R rears. The stiffer of those two would go back in. Still plows? New rear sway bar bushings. At this point, it sounds like the front needs more grip, but that could be due to a bad footprint. A pyrometer would tell you all about the footprint.
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From: Bay Area,Ca
98 c43-sold, 05 Audi A4 avant
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From: Oakland
W210 DRFT BNZ
Well I'm certainly not a technically experienced driver, and to that I admit openly. I've only done less than half of a dozen autocross days and haven't even seen track yet. The fact that I placed poorly is pretty much only my own fault. But all of this is outside of the scope of my question.
I do it for the fun. And it is not much fun the way the suspension is currently setup. This was my setup for most of the event:
225/45R17 @ 40PSI with stock springs on Bilstein Sport
245/40R17 @ 45PSI with (what looks like a Koni Blue spring) on Bilstein Sport
ASR is permanently wired off. Throttle AND brake assist do not interfere at any point, I'd like to make that clear. Not even ABS.
So at this point I suppose what makes the most sense is to keep my larger wheel set as the touring set and use the smaller 17x7.5 + 17x8.5 set for autocross as its probably lighter as well.
Will be looking into a pyrometer as well.
I do it for the fun. And it is not much fun the way the suspension is currently setup. This was my setup for most of the event:
225/45R17 @ 40PSI with stock springs on Bilstein Sport
245/40R17 @ 45PSI with (what looks like a Koni Blue spring) on Bilstein Sport
ASR is permanently wired off. Throttle AND brake assist do not interfere at any point, I'd like to make that clear. Not even ABS.
So at this point I suppose what makes the most sense is to keep my larger wheel set as the touring set and use the smaller 17x7.5 + 17x8.5 set for autocross as its probably lighter as well.
Will be looking into a pyrometer as well.
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From: Hotlanta
AMG
What tires are you running?
Something else to consider: swap the rear tires with the fronts (they should fit fine) for more meat up front.
Good luck and have fun!
Something else to consider: swap the rear tires with the fronts (they should fit fine) for more meat up front.
Good luck and have fun!
Last edited by Chappy; Jun 7, 2010 at 08:18 PM.
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From: Sacramento
AMG C43, 1999
The W202 chassis wants to understeer because the car wants to roll too much in the front and in the rear. So it helps to add stiffness to the front end with stiffer springs and larger swaybar. If you can't do these things then adding or replacing the swaybar rubber end mounts with Delrin bushings, of which I have made several sets over the years.
The same with the rear you can increase the stiffness against roll by replacing the swaybar end links with a solid end link with rod end bearings. I have also made several sets of these over the years.
With the set-up I have with larger swaybars, custom shocks and stiffer springs my car is a blast at the track. It steers well and the roll is reduced by by the changes I have made. Another change to make for Autocross is to set the front toe, to toe-out. This will allow your car to roll into the corners of the slower Auto-X course and not push the front end so much. Also run as much neg camber you can run using using the MB stock camber/caster bolt kits.
I would also recommend running 245/40 tires on each corner until you find the set-up you want. Then you could try going to bigger rear tires if your driving and set-up also for the change.
Jeff
The same with the rear you can increase the stiffness against roll by replacing the swaybar end links with a solid end link with rod end bearings. I have also made several sets of these over the years.
With the set-up I have with larger swaybars, custom shocks and stiffer springs my car is a blast at the track. It steers well and the roll is reduced by by the changes I have made. Another change to make for Autocross is to set the front toe, to toe-out. This will allow your car to roll into the corners of the slower Auto-X course and not push the front end so much. Also run as much neg camber you can run using using the MB stock camber/caster bolt kits.
I would also recommend running 245/40 tires on each corner until you find the set-up you want. Then you could try going to bigger rear tires if your driving and set-up also for the change.
Jeff
Last edited by speedybenz; Jun 8, 2010 at 12:10 AM.
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From: On a rock
92 AMG 190E EVO2DTM, 240T Turbo Benz, 84 AMG 190E, 560SEC-TT, 95 C36 & a BHG 98 C230
I am planning on running my C36 at the auto-x for fun. (I have a Turbo Miata for class racing) I set up my rear camber at 1/2 Negative and the front at 1/4 Degree Negative (would like more) with 1/8" toe out (I will set this at the track). I have a stag. set of 18" on the car. Front pressure I will run is 38 psi and rear 30 psi. If you set the rear too high it will understeer like a *****. I also have Bils Sports F & R. Right now I have on the car Toyo RA1s but I ordered a set of 18" Hoosier A6s and are awaiting thier arrival. Gotta wait one more month because our track is being used by the carnival as a fairground. (Sucks!!)
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From: Oakland
W210 DRFT BNZ
I am planning on running my C36 at the auto-x for fun. (I have a Turbo Miata for class racing) I set up my rear camber at 1/2 Negative and the front at 1/4 Degree Negative (would like more) with 1/8" toe out (I will set this at the track). I have a stag. set of 18" on the car. Front pressure I will run is 38 psi and rear 30 psi. If you set the rear too high it will understeer like a *****. I also have Bils Sports F & R. Right now I have on the car Toyo RA1s but I ordered a set of 18" Hoosier A6s and are awaiting thier arrival. Gotta wait one more month because our track is being used by the carnival as a fairground. (Sucks!!)
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From: Seattle, WA
C55
Your handling was probably improved via stiffer suspension, not the staggered set up.
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From: Bay Area, CA
W202 C43 AMG
im at the track at least twice a month (with an s2000, not my c43...yet) and can comment:
i'd recommend the speedybenz (penske shocks with gc/eibach setup) if you can afford it.
if not, something like bilstein sports with h&r springs would be fine too.
run both 245's in the front and in the rear. i'd recommend doing this on your 17's. this is often referred to as a square setup and is very effective for road racing / auto-x.
staggered = understeer. end of story.
happy driving!
i'd recommend the speedybenz (penske shocks with gc/eibach setup) if you can afford it.
if not, something like bilstein sports with h&r springs would be fine too.
run both 245's in the front and in the rear. i'd recommend doing this on your 17's. this is often referred to as a square setup and is very effective for road racing / auto-x.
staggered = understeer. end of story.
happy driving!
Last edited by TunerPlayground; Jun 17, 2010 at 11:18 AM.
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
im at the track at least twice a month (with an s2000, not my c43...yet) and can comment:
i'd recommend the speedybenz (penske shocks with gc/eibach setup) if you can afford it.
if not, something like bilstein sports with h&r springs would be fine too.
run both 245's in the front and in the rear. i'd recommend doing this on your 17's. this is often referred to as a square setup and is very effective for road racing / auto-x.
staggered = understeer. end of story.
happy driving!
i'd recommend the speedybenz (penske shocks with gc/eibach setup) if you can afford it.
if not, something like bilstein sports with h&r springs would be fine too.
run both 245's in the front and in the rear. i'd recommend doing this on your 17's. this is often referred to as a square setup and is very effective for road racing / auto-x.
staggered = understeer. end of story.
happy driving!
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From: Frederick MD
83 500SEC, 87 300D, 02 C32(x2), 02 C320T (x2), 03 C320T4, 03 C320T, 03 E55, 05 E320CDI, 06 E320CDI
good to see someone else doing autocross with a 202. I have toyo RA-1's 235/255 on and yes that sucker plows hard lol, but the alignment is still needing to be tweaked, Id like to run 255/245's at all 4 corners, but first I need to modify the front fenders a bit to get them to fit. sitting on bilstein sports/ h&r super sport springs as well.
Jeff, when I get more time to play with the car and set it up right, I'd definitly be interested in hearing more on what youve found out that works.
I have been waiting for almost 2 months on new pads for the C36 and I missed taking it to our last two autocrosses. I took the 500SEC instead and man, what fun that car is, even managed to squeak out a Mercedes FTD at one of them. heres a vid from that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlX8oQhZt10
and and earlier one of the C36 for comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5cfH...eature=channel
Jeff, when I get more time to play with the car and set it up right, I'd definitly be interested in hearing more on what youve found out that works.
I have been waiting for almost 2 months on new pads for the C36 and I missed taking it to our last two autocrosses. I took the 500SEC instead and man, what fun that car is, even managed to squeak out a Mercedes FTD at one of them. heres a vid from that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlX8oQhZt10
and and earlier one of the C36 for comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5cfH...eature=channel
Last edited by johnhef; Jul 21, 2010 at 09:56 PM.
