***Calling all exhaust experts***
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
***Calling all exhaust experts***
I am planning on doing my exhaust in the next couple months and have been researching all sorts of info. I have to admit that exhaust design is probably my weakest link when it comes to cars, I know very little.
So far my plan is as follows:
Kleemann headers
Magnaflow X pipe
Metal cats (300 cell)
Eisenmann muffler, Supersprint muffler, stock AMG muffler (I am going to choose one of the 3)
So then I got the idea of possibly going with true dual exhaust but was unsure if it would be wise, hence the post.
I'm hoping that the exhaust guru's on this site can point me in the right direction: dual exhaust or single exhaust, 2.5" or 3", etc...
Keep in mind that I may be going F/I or with the 55 swap in the future and no CEL's + being able to pass DEQ is a must
TIA
So far my plan is as follows:
Kleemann headers
Magnaflow X pipe
Metal cats (300 cell)
Eisenmann muffler, Supersprint muffler, stock AMG muffler (I am going to choose one of the 3)
So then I got the idea of possibly going with true dual exhaust but was unsure if it would be wise, hence the post.
I'm hoping that the exhaust guru's on this site can point me in the right direction: dual exhaust or single exhaust, 2.5" or 3", etc...
Keep in mind that I may be going F/I or with the 55 swap in the future and no CEL's + being able to pass DEQ is a must
TIA
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
Well you definitely do not want a true dual exhaust. It has been proven time and time again to be the lowest power output. And in my opinion the worst sounding. The x pipe though takes care of that. Placement on the x pipe as close to the engine as possible acts like another collector. If you are going to do a resonator delete and use the stock muffler then you are collecting after the cats anyway with a y pipe. The x pipe is still going to improve sound. As far as size goes there is a formula for this. 2.2 cfm per hp and 115 cfm per square inch. So for 400 hp you will need 7.65 square iches. So dual exhaust you will need 2.25 inch exhaust roughly.
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From: Land of mountains, cheese, chocolate and watches
12' W204 C63 AMG coupe "T-Rex", 12' W451 Smart Fortwo Pulse (99' W202 C43 AMG + Ultima Can-Am sold)
After your headers and cells, I think you will need a nice X pipe leading to a Y and resonator delete, then single pipe to the rear to the standard AMG rear muffler. Keep that one. The engineers have done some design around that. Let you ECU adapt and learn for a while and the car will rip IMHO
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
Well you definitely do not want a true dual exhaust. It has been proven time and time again to be the lowest power output. And in my opinion the worst sounding. The x pipe though takes care of that. Placement on the x pipe as close to the engine as possible acts like another collector. If you are going to do a resonator delete and use the stock muffler then you are collecting after the cats anyway with a y pipe. The x pipe is still going to improve sound. As far as size goes there is a formula for this. 2.2 cfm per hp and 115 cfm per square inch. So for 400 hp you will need 7.65 square iches. So dual exhaust you will need 2.25 inch exhaust roughly.
http://www.evosport.com/images/produ...xhaust_005.jpg
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
All production cars mercedes makes join at some point that I know of. The Black Series joins in resonatoror or in h pipe as do most of the current dual outlet exhaust. There is a difference between true dual and a joined exhaust. Xpipes and h pipes join the cylinder banks. True dual would never join. A lot of times people looking for a louder exhaust remove the resonator and replace it with an xpipe. I do this quite often. On your car your exhaust joins in the resonator and stays that way until the tips coming out of the muffler.
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
All production cars mercedes makes join at some point that I know of. The Black Series joins in resonatoror or in h pipe as do most of the current dual outlet exhaust. There is a difference between true dual and a joined exhaust. Xpipes and h pipes join the cylinder banks. True dual would never join. A lot of times people looking for a louder exhaust remove the resonator and replace it with an xpipe. I do this quite often. On your car your exhaust joins in the resonator and stays that way until the tips coming out of the muffler.
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98 C43, 15 Alfa 4C LE, 18 Tesla Model 3 DM Perf, 08 Duc S1000, 02 Duc 998, 98 Duc 748, 01 Miata
Your rear tow hook is over on the right side where you would want your other set of tips. I would just stick with a 3" single exhaust off of a Y pipe.
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From: PDX
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I do appreciate your input though
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From: REHOBOTH BEACH DE
88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
All production cars mercedes makes join at some point that I know of. The Black Series joins in resonatoror or in h pipe as do most of the current dual outlet exhaust. There is a difference between true dual and a joined exhaust. [b]Xpipes and h pipes join the cylinder banks. True dual would never join.[b] A lot of times people looking for a louder exhaust remove the resonator and replace it with an xpipe. I do this quite often. On your car your exhaust joins in the resonator and stays that way until the tips coming out of the muffler.
"H" and "X" pipes have been used for many, many years on dual exhausts.
They assist in scavenging on normally aspirated V type engines.
It does not "join" the dual pipes into one.
Why?
Because after the cross over connection of the "H" or "X", two distinct and separate pipes still exist !!!!
Applying your logic then the addition of a crossover pipe for scavenging would not make it a dual exhaust?
I had headers on my max performance Hemi that actually had the individual down pipe from one bank go under the engine to the collector on the opposite bank...all for the purpose of more efficient scavenging.
If you join into a "Y" then into cats, silencers, resonators, mufflers , whatever you want to call the exhaust components then it's not a dual exhaust.
So to sum up, commingling of exhaust gases do not define the type of exhaust.
Two in and two out of any component= dual exhaust
Two in and one out = single exhaust.
Also the cross over pipes won't really benefit a boosted engine as scavenging isn't that applicable.
I run a dual exhuast on my twin turbo M103 ( one down pipe and cat for each set of 3 cylinders ) and there was a power increase on the dyno.
And yes the CLK63 BS and the G55 have dual exhausts
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
Your understanding of a dual exhaust is not quite correct.
"H" and "X" pipes have been used for many, many years on dual exhausts.
They assist in scavenging on normally aspirated V type engines.
It does not "join" the dual pipes into one.
Why?
Because after the cross over connection of the "H" or "X", two distinct and separate pipes still exist !!!!
Applying your logic then the addition of a crossover pipe for scavenging would not make it a dual exhaust?
I had headers on my max performance Hemi that actually had the individual down pipe from one bank go under the engine to the collector on the opposite bank...all for the purpose of more efficient scavenging.
If you join into a "Y" then into cats, silencers, resonators, mufflers , whatever you want to call the exhaust components then it's not a dual exhaust.
So to sum up, commingling of exhaust gases do not define the type of exhaust.
Two in and two out of any component= dual exhaust
Two in and one out = single exhaust.
Also the cross over pipes won't really benefit a boosted engine as scavenging isn't that applicable.
I run a dual exhuast on my twin turbo M103 ( one down pipe and cat for each set of 3 cylinders ) and there was a power increase on the dyno.
And yes the CLK63 BS and the G55 have dual exhausts
"H" and "X" pipes have been used for many, many years on dual exhausts.
They assist in scavenging on normally aspirated V type engines.
It does not "join" the dual pipes into one.
Why?
Because after the cross over connection of the "H" or "X", two distinct and separate pipes still exist !!!!
Applying your logic then the addition of a crossover pipe for scavenging would not make it a dual exhaust?
I had headers on my max performance Hemi that actually had the individual down pipe from one bank go under the engine to the collector on the opposite bank...all for the purpose of more efficient scavenging.
If you join into a "Y" then into cats, silencers, resonators, mufflers , whatever you want to call the exhaust components then it's not a dual exhaust.
So to sum up, commingling of exhaust gases do not define the type of exhaust.
Two in and two out of any component= dual exhaust
Two in and one out = single exhaust.
Also the cross over pipes won't really benefit a boosted engine as scavenging isn't that applicable.
I run a dual exhuast on my twin turbo M103 ( one down pipe and cat for each set of 3 cylinders ) and there was a power increase on the dyno.
And yes the CLK63 BS and the G55 have dual exhausts
So Kleemann headers to X pipe to cats to dual mufflers (all mandrel bent, 2.5" SS pipe), does this sound about right for the best performing exhaust for my car?
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98 C43, 15 Alfa 4C LE, 18 Tesla Model 3 DM Perf, 08 Duc S1000, 02 Duc 998, 98 Duc 748, 01 Miata
First off, I don't think anyone plans on using their tow hook. However, when it isn't there, the next choice is going to be a rear control arm.
There is not going to be a benefit to dual exhaust unless you are pushing enough air that a readily available pipe size won't be big enough. Plenty of fast F-bodies run single 3" or 3.5" exhausts. All a dual exhaust is doing is adding weight, which is the enemy of performance. However, if you are after the style, then nothing wrong with that.
There is not going to be a benefit to dual exhaust unless you are pushing enough air that a readily available pipe size won't be big enough. Plenty of fast F-bodies run single 3" or 3.5" exhausts. All a dual exhaust is doing is adding weight, which is the enemy of performance. However, if you are after the style, then nothing wrong with that.
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From: REHOBOTH BEACH DE
88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
Possibly the comment made by the poster about dual exhaust losing power was a reference to small 4 cylinder engines.
AMG has always had performance dual exhausts which gain power...
Your proposed setup will gain you HP and more importantly torque....
Also if the poster tries to further define his belief of a "true" dual exhaust not commingling exhaust gas for scavenging via an "x" or "h" pipe then perhaps he should tell Borla that they have it all wrong !!
"Part Name: Exhaust System
Brand: Borla
Model: 350Z
Chassis:
- RWD, Automatic or Manual Transmission, 2 Door
Part Number: B25140045
Description: BORLA TRUE DUAL CAT-BACK EXHAUST SYSTEM -- Install Dyno Tuned Power, High Quality T304 Stainless Steel, Mandrel Bent Piping, With H Pipe, Single Round Rolled Angle-Cut Phantom Tip, Split Rear Exit, Produces A 7-15% Horsepower Increase, Better Fuel Economy And A Distinctive Performance Sound, Backed With Borla's 1,000,000 Mile Warranty!,
"
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From: REHOBOTH BEACH DE
88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
First off, I don't think anyone plans on using their tow hook. However, when it isn't there, the next choice is going to be a rear control arm.
There is not going to be a benefit to dual exhaust unless you are pushing enough air that a readily available pipe size won't be big enough. Plenty of fast F-bodies run single 3" or 3.5" exhausts. All a dual exhaust is doing is adding weight, which is the enemy of performance. However, if you are after the style, then nothing wrong with that.
There is not going to be a benefit to dual exhaust unless you are pushing enough air that a readily available pipe size won't be big enough. Plenty of fast F-bodies run single 3" or 3.5" exhausts. All a dual exhaust is doing is adding weight, which is the enemy of performance. However, if you are after the style, then nothing wrong with that.
Guess they didn't want to build a Camaro or Firebird
AMG has used dual exhausts on Euro builds since the M117...just look at the tri-Y headers that weren't available in the USA due to emissions standards.
Go through the old pre merger AMG catalogues and Technical manuals and you'll see the dual exhaust upgrades...
Wonder why GM went with a "true" dual exhaust on the C6 ??
Of course you must know the real reason that the F-bodies had a dual merged via Y to single exhaust?
Only due to chassis configuration and ground clearance.
Dual exhausts go back a very long time to the flathead Ford V8...
Emissions requirements caused the y-pipe single exhaust and single cat configuration mainly due to the cost of adding another converter on the production line.
Weight wasn't the reason as it was a pure cost decision on production cars.
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From: North NJ
2002 C32 AMG, 2013 GLK 350/4, 2015 E63S AMG Wagon
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
Headers to cats to X pipe to dual mufflers. Here is a picture of the SLK55 dual Supersprint setup. http://www.supersprint.com/public/images/29563.jpg 2.5" should be more than enough. It will be loud. Your neighbors appreciate if you use something like this http://www.supersprint.com/public/images/30605.jpg in place of the X pipe.
Not trying to be a D!CK but I could care less what my neighbors think
That picture you posted of the SLK55 Supersprint setup up is pretty much exactly what I was thinking, if only they made a kit for my C43
So now we have determined the pipe diameter what about the mufflers? I was thinking about buying another AMG muffler as I LOVE the sound and the added bonus of the "///// AMG" logo on the tips. The other 2 options I was thinking about was the Supersprint or Eisenmann mufflers. Eisenmann is RIDICULOUSLY expensive and the Supersprint is about the same price as an AMG muffler but I would need to buy 2 of them. Obviously the cheapest route would be to buy another AMG muffler but again I really don't care about cost as I am looking to get maximum performance.
What about the cats, I was thinking about going with Metal'Cats as I have heard good things. I was planning on going with 300 cell so I could have maximum flow but still pass DEQ.
What do you guys think??
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98 C43, 15 Alfa 4C LE, 18 Tesla Model 3 DM Perf, 08 Duc S1000, 02 Duc 998, 98 Duc 748, 01 Miata
So are you stating that AMG has got it all wrong by installing "true" dual exhausts on the new C63 ?
Guess they didn't want to build a Camaro or Firebird
AMG has used dual exhausts on Euro builds since the M117...just look at the tri-Y headers that weren't available in the USA due to emissions standards.
Go through the old pre merger AMG catalogues and Technical manuals and you'll see the dual exhaust upgrades...
Wonder why GM went with a "true" dual exhaust on the C6 ??
Of course you must know the real reason that the F-bodies had a dual merged via Y to single exhaust?
Only due to chassis configuration and ground clearance.
Dual exhausts go back a very long time to the flathead Ford V8...
Emissions requirements caused the y-pipe single exhaust and single cat configuration mainly due to the cost of adding another converter on the production line.
Weight wasn't the reason as it was a pure cost decision on production cars.
Guess they didn't want to build a Camaro or Firebird
AMG has used dual exhausts on Euro builds since the M117...just look at the tri-Y headers that weren't available in the USA due to emissions standards.
Go through the old pre merger AMG catalogues and Technical manuals and you'll see the dual exhaust upgrades...
Wonder why GM went with a "true" dual exhaust on the C6 ??
Of course you must know the real reason that the F-bodies had a dual merged via Y to single exhaust?
Only due to chassis configuration and ground clearance.
Dual exhausts go back a very long time to the flathead Ford V8...
Emissions requirements caused the y-pipe single exhaust and single cat configuration mainly due to the cost of adding another converter on the production line.
Weight wasn't the reason as it was a pure cost decision on production cars.
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From: Norcal
43
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From: North NJ
2002 C32 AMG, 2013 GLK 350/4, 2015 E63S AMG Wagon
I thought you wanted the X pipe as close to the headers as possible?
Not trying to be a D!CK but I could care less what my neighbors think
That picture you posted of the SLK55 Supersprint setup up is pretty much exactly what I was thinking, if only they made a kit for my C43
So now we have determined the pipe diameter what about the mufflers? I was thinking about buying another AMG muffler as I LOVE the sound and the added bonus of the "///// AMG" logo on the tips. The other 2 options I was thinking about was the Supersprint or Eisenmann mufflers. Eisenmann is RIDICULOUSLY expensive and the Supersprint is about the same price as an AMG muffler but I would need to buy 2 of them. Obviously the cheapest route would be to buy another AMG muffler but again I really don't care about cost as I am looking to get maximum performance.
What about the cats, I was thinking about going with Metal'Cats as I have heard good things. I was planning on going with 300 cell so I could have maximum flow but still pass DEQ.
What do you guys think??
Not trying to be a D!CK but I could care less what my neighbors think
That picture you posted of the SLK55 Supersprint setup up is pretty much exactly what I was thinking, if only they made a kit for my C43
So now we have determined the pipe diameter what about the mufflers? I was thinking about buying another AMG muffler as I LOVE the sound and the added bonus of the "///// AMG" logo on the tips. The other 2 options I was thinking about was the Supersprint or Eisenmann mufflers. Eisenmann is RIDICULOUSLY expensive and the Supersprint is about the same price as an AMG muffler but I would need to buy 2 of them. Obviously the cheapest route would be to buy another AMG muffler but again I really don't care about cost as I am looking to get maximum performance.
What about the cats, I was thinking about going with Metal'Cats as I have heard good things. I was planning on going with 300 cell so I could have maximum flow but still pass DEQ.
What do you guys think??
Performance wise, I didn't really gain much at the track. My car was already highly modified but the sound improved even more. I run without the cats but 300 cell is a good choice for the cats. Here is one place you can get these: http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/...ytic-Converter
Regarding the mufflers, not sure abouts yours but on some AMG mufflers the tips are slanted where one tip is sticking out a bit more than the other one. If that's the case, fitting a second AMG muffler may be not what you want without some tip re-welding. Otherwise, AMG mufflers are of good quality with high flow design.
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
I didn't care about the neighbors too and have the X pipe. They love me anyway.
Performance wise, I didn't really gain much at the track. My car was already highly modified but the sound improved even more. I run without the cats but 300 cell is a good choice for the cats. Here is one place you can get these: http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/...ytic-Converter
Regarding the mufflers, not sure abouts yours but on some AMG mufflers the tips are slanted where one tip is sticking out a bit more than the other one. If that's the case, fitting a second AMG muffler may be not what you want without some tip re-welding. Otherwise, AMG mufflers are of good quality with high flow design.
Performance wise, I didn't really gain much at the track. My car was already highly modified but the sound improved even more. I run without the cats but 300 cell is a good choice for the cats. Here is one place you can get these: http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/...ytic-Converter
Regarding the mufflers, not sure abouts yours but on some AMG mufflers the tips are slanted where one tip is sticking out a bit more than the other one. If that's the case, fitting a second AMG muffler may be not what you want without some tip re-welding. Otherwise, AMG mufflers are of good quality with high flow design.
Thanks for your input
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From: Columbus, Oh
07 Daytona 675, 05 C55, 00 ML55
That sounds awesome but I would do that minus the cats lol. Kleemann headers with the downpipes to x pipe with straight pipes to dual mufflers. Then you should get some electronic cutouts so when you go FI it will be nasty.
The setup I have on my car is vrp hems with custom SS downpipes with race cats for primaries to x pipe(in place of the secondary cats) with straight pipe to the muffler. Its sounds real nice, and at WOT its fookin loud!
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From: REHOBOTH BEACH DE
88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
If you've ever worked in product development, you would know the power of styling. They put dual exhausts on those cars because people like you associate dual exhaust with high performance. Why does the C43 have a single exhaust pipe if dual would have really opened it up? Why do huge HP Toyota Supra's run a single exhaust if giving it a dual exhaust would really give them the edge? Why did Chevy run a single to dual side tips on the F body? When you can give some better evidence that dual is better other than what a style driven manufacturer puts on, then you'll have a point.
If so then post your empirical data, primarily dyno pulls that show a dual exhaust lessens power output.
If you've work in manufacturing or production cost control then perhaps you realize that the installation of a merged exhaust on a V8 has to do with cost control.
One cat is less expensive then two cats.
I already commented on the F body and the one pipe was run due to the chassis design..if you would read and comprehend you wouldn't repeat the already answered question.
Supra is an inline engine which may or may not benefit on two distinct downpipes depending on the design.
We are addresing a V configuration.
How about AMG performance options that go back to the premerger days...
I've more then proved my point so why not show me what you've learned in your "product development "
What you don't understand is that although a single versus dual performance exhaust system may make the same peak power the dual provides more torque at lower RPM's..didn't your "product development" experience know that ???
Perhaps AMG and BMW "M" car aftermarket exhausts from the likes of Stillen and Akrapovic ( http://www.akrapovic.com/typo3conf/e..._m3_en_web.pdf http://dinancenter.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=3 ) should have consulted with you for their incorrect exhaust system product development ???
Now time to prove your less then correct point !!!
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
Well that settles it RBYCC
I DEFINITELY want more torque down low so dual exhaust it is...
So my other question is X pipe before the cats or after? I thought you wanted the X pipe as close to the headers as possible but the Supersprint design shows the X pipe after the cats.
I DEFINITELY want more torque down low so dual exhaust it is...
So my other question is X pipe before the cats or after? I thought you wanted the X pipe as close to the headers as possible but the Supersprint design shows the X pipe after the cats.
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From: REHOBOTH BEACH DE
88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
Well that settles it RBYCC
I DEFINITELY want more torque down low so dual exhaust it is...
So my other question is X pipe before the cats or after? I thought you wanted the X pipe as close to the headers as possible but the Supersprint design shows the X pipe after the cats.
I DEFINITELY want more torque down low so dual exhaust it is...
So my other question is X pipe before the cats or after? I thought you wanted the X pipe as close to the headers as possible but the Supersprint design shows the X pipe after the cats.
Down stream of the cats presents no problem.
Important that you use a high flow spun metal cat as a good bit of your power gain is with the more efficient cat.
Magnaflow makes a nice universal unit that is about $120.00 each.
I run two on my M103-12V twin turbo.
My state tests emissions at idle and last inspection HC=140 CO (%)=0.02.
http://www.car-sound.com/02product/universal/599.asp
Ed A.
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From: PDX
1999 C43, 2008 P30 E63, 2014 SQ5, 2024 Model Y Performance
The x-pipe typically is installed where it can fit..
Down stream of the cats presents no problem.
Important that you use a high flow spun metal cat as a good bit of your power gain is with the more efficient cat.
Magnaflow makes a nice universal unit that is about $120.00 each.
I run two on my M103-12V twin turbo.
My state tests emissions at idle and last inspection HC=140 CO (%)=0.02.
http://www.car-sound.com/02product/universal/599.asp
Ed A.
Down stream of the cats presents no problem.
Important that you use a high flow spun metal cat as a good bit of your power gain is with the more efficient cat.
Magnaflow makes a nice universal unit that is about $120.00 each.
I run two on my M103-12V twin turbo.
My state tests emissions at idle and last inspection HC=140 CO (%)=0.02.
http://www.car-sound.com/02product/universal/599.asp
Ed A.
Thanks for the input
