C450 AMG
02-12-2015, 09:46 PM
#76
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Benyl, there precisely is the rub. It's called a Mercedes AMG,or to be more precise a Mercedes AMG Sport. It has many AMG components and MB themselves describe it as a "true AMG".
However many c63 owners are understandly miffed that MB are producing "cheap" Amgs which may dilute the brand.
However many c63 owners are understandly miffed that MB are producing "cheap" Amgs which may dilute the brand.
Big difference. But it will be a great car. I don't necessarily think anyone with a C450 is a poser, unless he refers to his car as an AMG. I highly doubt any would.
02-12-2015, 09:56 PM
#77
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I think the c450 will be one of the best Mercedes Benz' built... On that I think most of us agree
Looking forward to test driving it, may replace our aging Infiniti g35x
Looking forward to test driving it, may replace our aging Infiniti g35x
02-12-2015, 10:28 PM
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I think someone else missed the point.....
You believe this is "nothing more than a gimmick"? Obviously you don't see the inherent superiority and precision of one sculptor vs. many. I don't have the time or energy to explain it either. Everyone can have an opinion, so I don't fret that. But, please, use some restraint when you post uniformed dribble on an enthusiasts forum.
You believe this is "nothing more than a gimmick"? Obviously you don't see the inherent superiority and precision of one sculptor vs. many. I don't have the time or energy to explain it either. Everyone can have an opinion, so I don't fret that. But, please, use some restraint when you post uniformed dribble on an enthusiasts forum.
Please explain to me exactly what the technician/assembler can do to make that engine a unique piece? Every component is precision engineered by mechanical/automotive engineers... the assembler is just putting the pieces together.
Now if there were parameters that he had to tweak during assembly to customise the engine to match something or the other, then that becomes something special.
I want to buy new C63 but not because the engine is assembled by one technician. That doesn't even register on my radar.
Be an enthusiast, but there really is no need to be a fanboy.
02-12-2015, 11:18 PM
#79
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Please explain to me exactly what the technician/assembler can do to make that engine a unique piece? Every component is precision engineered by mechanical/automotive engineers... the assembler is just putting the pieces together.
Now if there were parameters that he had to tweak during assembly to customise the engine to match something or the other, then that becomes something special.
Now if there were parameters that he had to tweak during assembly to customise the engine to match something or the other, then that becomes something special.
The Nissan GT-R's motor is assembled the same way and as a result, each engine has a different horsepower/torque output. They typically turn out to be underrated (i.e., more power than advertised).
I have read that the same is true for the AMG motors (a byproduct of being hand-built).
02-12-2015, 11:40 PM
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I'm not the poster you were addressing but the assembly of the engine is 100% a unique and critical process.
The Nissan GT-R's motor is assembled the same way and as a result, each engine has a different horsepower/torque output. They typically turn out to be underrated (i.e., more power than advertised).
I have read that the same is true for the AMG motors (a byproduct of being hand-built).
The Nissan GT-R's motor is assembled the same way and as a result, each engine has a different horsepower/torque output. They typically turn out to be underrated (i.e., more power than advertised).
I have read that the same is true for the AMG motors (a byproduct of being hand-built).
Even then, there really is no reason why an assembler's skill should have any bearing on the performance on the engine.
I'd love to hear a good explanation to the contrary. I don't have an axe to grind on this subject. I'm neither a fanboy nor a hater.
02-12-2015, 11:49 PM
#81
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02-13-2015, 12:55 AM
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CLA45 AMG
BMW does offer several options for the 335i M Sport line, such as M tuned suspension, sport tuned transmission and an M Performance power pack which adds a tune to up the 335i engine power.
The only difference is, with the C450, the above options are standard.
Your lack of knowledge of both the MB and BMW brands is exactly this MB AMG Sport marketing had bet on, else people like you would not have bought into this "true AMG" deal.
02-13-2015, 01:29 AM
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CLA45 AMG
I'm just trying to understand why that should happen. Unless the tolerances on the parts allow for large variations, the power output of the engine should be well controlled.
Even then, there really is no reason why an assembler's skill should have any bearing on the performance on the engine.
I'd love to hear a good explanation to the contrary. I don't have an axe to grind on this subject. I'm neither a fanboy nor a hater.
Even then, there really is no reason why an assembler's skill should have any bearing on the performance on the engine.
I'd love to hear a good explanation to the contrary. I don't have an axe to grind on this subject. I'm neither a fanboy nor a hater.
Maybe you are buying a C Class because you value that MB badge? Or maybe you value the extra effort?
The same are true for an AMG model, the hand built engine, the signed badge, all the performance designed into a car that carries an AMG logo.
02-13-2015, 09:44 AM
#84
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I find this thread interesting to say the least. Audi has been very successful with the S4. Mercedes sees a market and they are going after it. There is no harm in that.
02-13-2015, 10:40 AM
#85
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The C450 does not sit between the CLA45 and the C63, just like the 335i M Sport or the M235i does not sit between the 1M and M3.
BMW does offer several options for the 335i M Sport line, such as M tuned suspension, sport tuned transmission and an M Performance power pack which adds a tune to up the 335i engine power.
The only difference is, with the C450, the above options are standard.
Your lack of knowledge of both the MB and BMW brands is exactly this MB AMG Sport marketing had bet on, else people like you would not have bought into this "true AMG" deal.
BMW does offer several options for the 335i M Sport line, such as M tuned suspension, sport tuned transmission and an M Performance power pack which adds a tune to up the 335i engine power.
The only difference is, with the C450, the above options are standard.
Your lack of knowledge of both the MB and BMW brands is exactly this MB AMG Sport marketing had bet on, else people like you would not have bought into this "true AMG" deal.
02-13-2015, 11:21 AM
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02-13-2015, 11:50 AM
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CLA45 AMG
Likewise the 3 Series is successful without letting people to believe the M sport model is a "real M car".
MB went too far to mislead ignorant buyers into thinking they are buying a C450 as a true AMG model.
Time will tell how much it will impact the true AMG sales. I would think a lot of the AMG Sport sales will take away from the AMG sales, especially if the buyers believe they have bought a true AMG model.
A C450 sell will not be counted as an AMG sell. I wonder if AMG has been a willing participant in this marketing scheme, or is it MBUSA only?
Last edited by dtc100; 02-13-2015 at 11:57 AM.
02-13-2015, 12:22 PM
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Successful without misleading people into thinking the S4 is a "real RS".
Likewise the 3 Series is successful without letting people to believe the M sport model is a "real M car".
MB went too far to mislead ignorant buyers into thinking they are buying a C450 as a true AMG model.
Time will tell how much it will impact the true AMG sales. I would think a lot of the AMG Sport sales will take away from the AMG sales, especially if the buyers believe they have bought a true AMG model.
A C450 sell will not be counted as an AMG sell. I wonder if AMG has been a willing participant in this marketing scheme, or is it MBUSA only?
Likewise the 3 Series is successful without letting people to believe the M sport model is a "real M car".
MB went too far to mislead ignorant buyers into thinking they are buying a C450 as a true AMG model.
Time will tell how much it will impact the true AMG sales. I would think a lot of the AMG Sport sales will take away from the AMG sales, especially if the buyers believe they have bought a true AMG model.
A C450 sell will not be counted as an AMG sell. I wonder if AMG has been a willing participant in this marketing scheme, or is it MBUSA only?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vRHquosTg6I&autoplay=1
Last edited by PeterUbers; 02-13-2015 at 12:26 PM.
02-13-2015, 12:33 PM
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CLA45 AMG
I am talking about the pitch made that the C450 is a true AMG. I thought MBUSA made such claim and some posters here used that as proof the C450 is a real AMG model, because "MB said so".
02-13-2015, 12:44 PM
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2012 GL550
Why not save your money and buy a GM SS or Ford RS? All those performance cars are now built on assembly lines, and some can run circles around a C Class.
Maybe you are buying a C Class because you value that MB badge? Or maybe you value the extra effort?
The same are true for an AMG model, the hand built engine, the signed badge, all the performance designed into a car that carries an AMG logo.
Maybe you are buying a C Class because you value that MB badge? Or maybe you value the extra effort?
The same are true for an AMG model, the hand built engine, the signed badge, all the performance designed into a car that carries an AMG logo.
It adds cachet to the brand without actually offering anything of substance.
I'd rather have a plaque of the engineers who designed the engine. But that wouldn't go down as well... showing geeks obsessing over computer screens and then running out to the production floor to put the plaque on.
It's much better to have the men in overalls with power tools to finish the assembly, then put the plaque on and send the engine on its way. It's brilliant. But it is just fluff.
02-13-2015, 01:36 PM
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CLA45 AMG
The reason I'm planning to buy a C63S is pretty much all of the above. But the point I was making in my first post was that the hand-built side of the AMG engine is nothing more than a brilliant marketing ploy.
It adds cachet to the brand without actually offering anything of substance.
I'd rather have a plaque of the engineers who designed the engine. But that wouldn't go down as well... showing geeks obsessing over computer screens and then running out to the production floor to put the plaque on.
It's much better to have the men in overalls with power tools to finish the assembly, then put the plaque on and send the engine on its way. It's brilliant. But it is just fluff.
It adds cachet to the brand without actually offering anything of substance.
I'd rather have a plaque of the engineers who designed the engine. But that wouldn't go down as well... showing geeks obsessing over computer screens and then running out to the production floor to put the plaque on.
It's much better to have the men in overalls with power tools to finish the assembly, then put the plaque on and send the engine on its way. It's brilliant. But it is just fluff.
But I can offer several benefits of a hand built engine with a signed badge.
1) A hand built engine, like all things hand made, tends to be more valuable than its counterpart built on assembly line, because of the extra effort put into it.
2) A piece of artifact is alway more valuable with an authentic signature on it. It tells a story.
3) If an engine is hand built, one can assume the engine builder has more training and is more experienced, a master engine builder as they say, than a bunch of workers on the engine assembly line trained to handle one particular installation, and go from one model to the next, among maybe 10 to 20 different engine types, some designed for minivans, other for pickup trucks, family sedans, SUVs, and with performance engines in the mix.
4) The testing and troubleshooting are more focused at only the limited number of the performance engines, without the distraction from the demand of other non-performance products.
5) The master builder is not rushed because there is not the usual pressure of a moving assembly line coming at you and you are clocked for every move you make.
The bottom line, it is a unique aspect of the AMG models other popular performance brands do not offer. It adds certain exclusivity, and exclusivity can be a good thing.
It is in part marketing ploy, sure, but not all of it, when extra effort is made and the product is backed by a real person behind it.
Last edited by dtc100; 02-13-2015 at 01:39 PM.
02-13-2015, 01:42 PM
#92
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You are contradicting yourself. What benefit would a plaque of the design engineer on the engine do? Itself does not make more power, compared to the same engine without the plaque.
But I can offer several benefits of a hand built engine with a signed badge.
1) A hand built engine, like all things hand made, tends to be more valuable than its counterpart built on assembly line, because of the extra effort put into it.
2) A piece of artifact is alway more valuable with an authentic signature on it. It tells a story.
3) If an engine is hand built, one can assume the engine builder has more training and is more experienced, a master engine builder as they say, than a bunch of workers on the engine assembly line trained to handle one particular installation, and go from one model to the next, among maybe 10 to 20 different engine types, some designed for minivans, other for pickup trucks, family sedans, SUVs, and with performance engines in the mix.
4) The testing and troubleshooting are more focused at only the limited number of the performance engines, without the distraction from the demand of other non-performance products.
5) The master builder is not rushed because there is not the usual pressure of a moving assembly line coming at you and you are clocked for every move you make.
The bottom line, it is a unique aspect of the AMG models other popular performance brands do not offer. It adds certain exclusivity, and exclusivity can be a good thing.
It is in part marketing ploy, sure, but not all of it, when extra effort is made and the product is backed by a real person behind it.
But I can offer several benefits of a hand built engine with a signed badge.
1) A hand built engine, like all things hand made, tends to be more valuable than its counterpart built on assembly line, because of the extra effort put into it.
2) A piece of artifact is alway more valuable with an authentic signature on it. It tells a story.
3) If an engine is hand built, one can assume the engine builder has more training and is more experienced, a master engine builder as they say, than a bunch of workers on the engine assembly line trained to handle one particular installation, and go from one model to the next, among maybe 10 to 20 different engine types, some designed for minivans, other for pickup trucks, family sedans, SUVs, and with performance engines in the mix.
4) The testing and troubleshooting are more focused at only the limited number of the performance engines, without the distraction from the demand of other non-performance products.
5) The master builder is not rushed because there is not the usual pressure of a moving assembly line coming at you and you are clocked for every move you make.
The bottom line, it is a unique aspect of the AMG models other popular performance brands do not offer. It adds certain exclusivity, and exclusivity can be a good thing.
It is in part marketing ploy, sure, but not all of it, when extra effort is made and the product is backed by a real person behind it.
So much for hand built exclusivity
Don't get me wrong ... 100k is disposable for me otherwise id never touch an amg, but it's sad how they depreciate
02-13-2015, 01:48 PM
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CLA45 AMG
Who knows, without a hand built engine, our AMGs could depreciate even faster. So here is another benefit of the hand built engine
02-13-2015, 01:53 PM
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02-13-2015, 02:01 PM
#95
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Successful without misleading people into thinking the S4 is a "real RS".
Likewise the 3 Series is successful without letting people to believe the M sport model is a "real M car".
MB went too far to mislead ignorant buyers into thinking they are buying a C450 as a true AMG model.
Time will tell how much it will impact the true AMG sales. I would think a lot of the AMG Sport sales will take away from the AMG sales, especially if the buyers believe they have bought a true AMG model.
A C450 sell will not be counted as an AMG sell. I wonder if AMG has been a willing participant in this marketing scheme, or is it MBUSA only?
Likewise the 3 Series is successful without letting people to believe the M sport model is a "real M car".
MB went too far to mislead ignorant buyers into thinking they are buying a C450 as a true AMG model.
Time will tell how much it will impact the true AMG sales. I would think a lot of the AMG Sport sales will take away from the AMG sales, especially if the buyers believe they have bought a true AMG model.
A C450 sell will not be counted as an AMG sell. I wonder if AMG has been a willing participant in this marketing scheme, or is it MBUSA only?
There is nothing wrong with advertising a AMG Sport package, but MB is quite clear that it isn't an AMG. Are certain aspects like a "true AMG"? Yes. We see that there are components in this car that are tuned by AMG...important parts. But it isn't an AMG. We all know how an AMG's nomenclature is meant to be, and you can sure as hell bet the person driving off in his C450 AMG Sport knows this as well.
Now if that person wants to be a poser and call his car an AMG, he is a loser. Pure and simple.
AMGs have started this slippery slope with, no offense, the CLA45. If anyone wants to get mad at "diluting" the brand, it is that car, and the A45. A 4 banger, yeah yeah I know, tuned by AMG in a FWD based car at a low price point was the beginning of the end. The growth brought on my the outrageous C63 in '08 is what truly captured the imagination of AMG and made the brand blow up.
02-13-2015, 02:13 PM
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You are contradicting yourself. What benefit would a plaque of the design engineer on the engine do? Itself does not make more power, compared to the same engine without the plaque.
But I can offer several benefits of a hand built engine with a signed badge.
1) A hand built engine, like all things hand made, tends to be more valuable than its counterpart built on assembly line, because of the extra effort put into it.
2) A piece of artifact is alway more valuable with an authentic signature on it. It tells a story.
3) If an engine is hand built, one can assume the engine builder has more training and is more experienced, a master engine builder as they say, than a bunch of workers on the engine assembly line trained to handle one particular installation, and go from one model to the next, among maybe 10 to 20 different engine types, some designed for minivans, other for pickup trucks, family sedans, SUVs, and with performance engines in the mix.
4) The testing and troubleshooting are more focused at only the limited number of the performance engines, without the distraction from the demand of other non-performance products.
5) The master builder is not rushed because there is not the usual pressure of a moving assembly line coming at you and you are clocked for every move you make.
The bottom line, it is a unique aspect of the AMG models other popular performance brands do not offer. It adds certain exclusivity, and exclusivity can be a good thing.
It is in part marketing ploy, sure, but not all of it, when extra effort is made and the product is backed by a real person behind it.
But I can offer several benefits of a hand built engine with a signed badge.
1) A hand built engine, like all things hand made, tends to be more valuable than its counterpart built on assembly line, because of the extra effort put into it.
2) A piece of artifact is alway more valuable with an authentic signature on it. It tells a story.
3) If an engine is hand built, one can assume the engine builder has more training and is more experienced, a master engine builder as they say, than a bunch of workers on the engine assembly line trained to handle one particular installation, and go from one model to the next, among maybe 10 to 20 different engine types, some designed for minivans, other for pickup trucks, family sedans, SUVs, and with performance engines in the mix.
4) The testing and troubleshooting are more focused at only the limited number of the performance engines, without the distraction from the demand of other non-performance products.
5) The master builder is not rushed because there is not the usual pressure of a moving assembly line coming at you and you are clocked for every move you make.
The bottom line, it is a unique aspect of the AMG models other popular performance brands do not offer. It adds certain exclusivity, and exclusivity can be a good thing.
It is in part marketing ploy, sure, but not all of it, when extra effort is made and the product is backed by a real person behind it.
Yes, there is cost added due to the individual assembly process, but that's done purely to create uniqueness for the sake of being unique. The term "master" builder is pure unadulterated marketing. It's a guy putting together precision engineered components. An automated line would achieve the same thing.
It is my opinion (and you don't have to agree with it), there really is no other reason to do it other than creating a little extra brand cachet. And as we can see from this discussion, it clearly works!
As for the product being backed by a real person... well, if you end up having an issue with the engine, trust me, it is not going back to the "master". It will end up with their failure analysis group, and if they do find a genuine issue, it will get forwarded to the appropriate team. Even if it is an assembly issue, it will be down to the parameters set by the assembly engineers. I'm afraid the job of the "master" is to simply follow the guidelines he's given.
02-13-2015, 03:36 PM
#98
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These engines are assembled to perfection, and are analyzed through and through.
02-13-2015, 03:53 PM
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CLA45 AMG
Obviously the AMG engine builders are picked from the better and more experienced workers, given more training and are hopefully paid more so not to screw up as often.
