zibby43

I don't know why you're getting so bent out of shape. I'm just trying to have a discussion. You can disagree without getting nasty. I didn't last 1,704 posts here by being a jerk, especially to new members that have been around less than a month and have less than 30 posts.

Bespoke is a term that fits perfectly with the concept of custom-built engines.

Strafe1

Zibby....just leave what_the_deuce and trueblue_ips alone. They are trolling and have been openly criticized for their lack of AMG knowledge, as well as their "think they know-it-all" attitudes on not only this forum, but the mercedescla forums and the AMG PL forums for several days now. These two have grade school level knowledge of these cars and trying to educate them is proving fruitless. It's not their substantial lack of factual information that is the problem, it's their persistent argument using misinformation and disrespecting those of us that are trying to teach them what separates AMG's from non-AMG's. Imagine that....newbies trying to tell avid, career AMG owner's that they know better.....

what_the_deuce

I didn't mean to come across as nasty but if you try and go through my posts on this topic then you may notice that my bottom line had been that people should learn to look past the marketing BS. But clearly people seem to care more about the "one man one engine" more than what the engine actually delivers.

Lastly, let me clarify the concept of bespoke. If you order your car with your own choice of colour and options, then that car is certainly bespoke. But if the engine in that car is the same as every other C63, then you certainly cannot call that engine bespoke. Now if there were some spec items of that engine that could be tailored to your order, then you can call that a bespoke engine.

AMG engines are hand-made but not bespoke.

I would hope what one says carries more weight than how many posts one has accumulated.

what_the_deuce

WTF!

Keep your blinkers on mate.

Will617

A lot of true passion for AMG here, thread lightly.

trueblue_ips

strafe, patronising or what?
You're going to "educate" me in the ways of AMG LOL.

I'm not a troll. Just a guy who is open minded and hasn't been brainwashed by the hand-built rubbish.

ace10

When one finds themselves at the bottom of a hole, armed only with a shovel, it is generally best to simply stop digging.

You sir, are in a very deep one, and your shoveling skills appear to be exemplary.

Clearly you possess no knowledge or even basic understanding of cars, the marketing of cars, the manufacturing of cars, owner loyalty, and (on topic) AMG. If talking out one's **** was art, you would be Picasso.

Strafe1

NOT open minded. If you were, you would have understood by now that the reason you are blasted on every AMG enthusiast forum is because you don't listen to the feedback, or see the corruption of your information/thinking.

dtc100

Exactly, if he were even slightly open minded, he would have seen the value of a hand built engine. Maybe to him not as important a value as the actual numbers the engine cranks out, but its value is clear because extra effort is put into it, and it certainly is not BS.

Of course marketing is always a part of any sales. If engine being hand made is a "marketing BS", what else is not a "marketing BS"? I'd like to know about it.

trueblue_ips

dtc100, I'm not disputing the value, or more to the point the prestige, of a hand built engine. What I'm disputing is that an MB AMG one is hand built.

It's a cheap gimmick. Lovely though an AMG is, especially the c450, it's not super car terroritory where you pay several hundred thousand $.

ace10

Do you even bother to read what you're writing? It's pure gibberish.

zibby43

I 100% agree regarding your interpretation of bespoke.

However, I was using it in a broader sense, considering that the AMG motors are built/assembled by hand in an industry in which virtually all other motors are made on an assembly line (including the S55 in the new M3/M4).

Even if we were to operate entirely within the bounds of your definition, the vast majority of AMG cars are ordered by customers (including mine). In this country's smaller markets, the only way to acquire an AMG car is by placing a "custom" order through the dealer.

In my case, my car, along with the the motor, is "bespoke" or custom-made to/for me because I chose the configuration.

Secondly, caring about the "one man, one engine" motto and appreciating what these cars can truly do are not mutually exclusive. I track this car. I modify it. I didn't just buy it because of that motto. That said, I still acknowledge that is nice to have something a bit more unique in an era of mass-produced everything.

Also, I agree that the content a member provides to the community is the best way to evaluate the member's worth to the forum.

It's just that I am a moderator on another forum (a much larger forum) and 99% of the time, those with lower post counts (but high "post rates" early on) are much more likely to break the forum rules/act as trolls. Someone that has been around 7 years doesn't suddenly turn into a "troll." Not saying that you are, just explaining why I always consider length of membership/post count. These factors are the grains of salt I take with that "new" member's posts.

zibby43

I had no idea that they were suddenly active on those other forums as well. I wonder how the hell they got into the PL. As a mod, that's a big-time red flag.

I completely agree that it is annoying to see non-AMG owners trying to "educate" those of us that have owned, driven, and tracked these cars for years.

When I was in the position to buy my first AMG, I kept my mouth shut and read far more than I posted. What the hell did I have to offer when I didn't even own an AMG in the first place? I guess I could've proved that I could read whatever I found on the internet haha.

-=Hot|Ice=-

The Nissan GT-R's engine is hand built as well. Must be marketing too. Get over yourselves, please.

what_the_deuce

That is actually a very good point about low production volume. And the brand cachet point is all that I wanted to emphasise.

But people seem to think the hand-built nature of it somehow makes the engine superior. And if you try and point out that it is superior only in the most superficial sense, then that's blasphemy.

And because I haven't bought the AMG yet then I must be intellectually inferior on issues of commonsense. Jeez!

dtc100

A gimmick implies not having much value, yet you seem to admit there is value.

In modern days the term hand built or hand made are often universally associated with value.

What satisfy you that an engine is hand built? Does the engine builder have to start by collecting a pile of rocks, bake them in the oven, extract metals, and go from there?

what_the_deuce

Fair enough on the point of length of membership. The reason I joined this forum is because I'm looking to buy the W205 C63S.

And I also agree on the uniqueness the hand built engine affords to the AMG line up. I did not dispute that. I only stated that it is a marketing master stroke. Pure and simple. Do not make it out to be something it is not.

InfinityWind

Me, and I believe most will agree with you that hand build has a marketing spin, but I disagree that it’s superficial. Let me ask you a question.... will you trust a robot to operate on yourself or a loved one, or you'll find a specialist surgeon who did the same surgery hundred of times before?

For me hand build means that the product is unique, build by an expert who does the same thing over and over again, and he/she are accountable for what they do. Cars from F1 to Aston Martin are hand build, luxury watches, NASA rockets and space shuttles, even my Ducati has a yellow mark indicate that it was checked by a human.

I believe that MB commitment for hand build AMG engines is significant, and they are doing for the right reason. So why no to using it as a marketing tool?

For the past 25 years I work for some of the world largest advertising agencies, on accounts such as Ford, IBM, Nissan, Coca Cola and others. I know how to recognize marketing spin when its not backed up. In this case it is.

trueblue_ips

I'm not active in other AMG forums and certainly not not the PL.
Strafe, you are just looking to create trouble for some reason and wind people up.

trueblue_ips

Dtc100, that's my point entirely. What does hand built mean? It doesnt really mean anything. This is not one master craftsman creating something that is unique. all of the engine parts will be made by machine. It's just a cheap marketing ploy used by MB to mimick more expensive brands like RR.

what_the_deuce

trueblue... i really don't know what you are on about. I wouldn't say that MB are trying to mimic other brands.

PeterUbers

PeterUbers

^^^thats the problem

what_the_deuce

I'm afraid there's a whole lot of research ongoing to automate surgery. Not only that, the same applies to flying an aircraft, driverless cars, etc etc. Because most accidents and errors have a human element to it. But that is beside the point.

I've already explained before why accountability of the builder is irrelevant. So, please explain to me how precision engineered components can be assembled in a unique way?

Strafe1

Sorry if I implied they were POSTING on the other forums....they are not, I don't believe. What's happening is the posts these two are making on this forum are being slammed and commented on by AMG owners on those other forums I mentioned. They, like me, read and post on all of these forums. Sorry for the confusion.