diamondblak05

I don't need to drive one to the track to figure that one out. It has been proven time and time again by auto magazines and tv shows that AMGs are poor handling cars at the track. It doesn't take a genius or someone who tracks their car to know that 5 seconds is an eternity.

E55 PWR

If you are talking about Tracking M3s... the new one is the LAST M3 you should be tracking, it too is a super fast grocery getter. If you want a real track car, get an E46 M3 SMG2 and lighten then hell out of it, or buy the PROPER M3 and buy the king of all track cars the E36 M3. That is still by far the best handling and best overall packaged M3 ever made and at the rate BMW is going it probably always will be. If you want a great track car, get a nicely modded out E36 M3 for sub $10k and race the hell out of it. Thats a true track car and a true M3.

This whole debate of "Oh but new M3 is better on the track"... gimme a freaking break, only 5% of M3 owners will ever even go to the track, even less AMG guys. In the REAL WORLD AMG is far more usable and is faster by a substantial amount, it sounds cooler, looks cooler, and is more practical... not to mention it has a good 50-75HP in potentail HP just corked up waiting to be released where as M3 is probably close to maxed out from the factory being as high strung as it is... all it takes is a sane man to see which is the better option (and thats coming from a M3 diehard).

C63 FTW

AWDman

on the money e55 on the money. i may be looking at an e36 today.
for the $$$ you would spend for a e92m3 or c63, you can buy a warrantied w211 e55 PLUS a lotus elise!!!! ($50K + $25K)

there's a thread on m3 forum regarding cams and an addtnl 50 hp for the e92m3. i think it's possible as the tq peak is low and there's prob power to be had up high by sacrificing some down low.

Fifth Ring

Why not? If you like fast cars and driving fast, I think you should try it. Find a local club that does track days. It will totally open your eyes (and your wallet) and change the way you drive, it will change how your look at cars and car reviews.

Here's the typical progression:

1. First track event. Totally stock car, rented helmet. ($300)

2. Second track event. Upgraded tires and brake pads ($1,500).

3. Fifth track event. New suspension, track-only wheels and tires, big brake kit, maybe harnesses. ($7,000). You're fast now, but the problem is your car kind of sucks for day to day driving!

4. Tenth track event. You finally see the folly in making your street car into a track car, so you buy a track beater, restore the daily driver close to stock. ($7,000). What's funny is that most track beaters cost less than the money you put into ruining your daily driver, and the track beater is SLOWER than the modded-out street car (old 944s, Miatas, E30 BMWs), but by now you are not motivated by outright speed - you're in it for the education. And lo you discover that a lighter, simpler track beater doesn't use up tires, fuel and brakes the way your two-ton street car did.

5. Twentieth track event. Track beater is sold and you have a full-on, stripped, caged race car. ($20,000).

I'm at step 4 and loving it. I have a 20 year old 944 with a whopping 158 HP, no antilock brakes, no stability control, no airbags, but it is a blast to drive.

I have no interest in cars like the M3 or the Nissan GTR. They're neither fish nor fowl. They are too nice to beat at the track (the very idea of hustling seat heaters and a sat navigation system around a racetrack is absurd), and too harsh to drive to work every day. I see my self evolving to the point where my next daily driver will completely suit my needs for comfortable, efficient, all-weather transportation -- a small, diesel SUV?

jtc55

really?

just b/c u have track experience u think ur the king of stoplight races? yeah right.

i've had my share of stoplight races so i'll have no problem going up against u in the M3 while i'm in the C63.

hope u like the rear of the C63 cause that's all u'll be seeing

jtc55

ur 110% correct.

buy an elise lotus (or modify a small, lightweight 2-seater) if u want to brag about a track car.

Fifth Ring

I think what he was saying is that he's not going to race you.

chiphomme

As well as someone debating that somehow having a car that does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds versus 4.3 seconds makes it a better real world vehicle.
The C63 appears to falling short in the driveability comparison too. In fact the only thing it seems to do better than the M3 is brute acceleration.
After reading and seeing several reviews it appears the M3 is the better great all around car.

CynCarvin32

Are you too wound up in your street racing to comprehend what people write? I said I would pull alway normally and let you blast off like a child showing people how manly you are by zooming off to the next stoplight. We will all be very impressed believe me. I will feel so inadequate when you get there before I can manage.

I am saying I don't street race, I don't care if you are faster to 60 than me, and I don't care if I see the back of your car. I passed that stage many years ago after driving my first fast car for a bit.

Driving a car is a bit more dynamic than MASH RIGHT FOOT TO FLOOR.

CynCarvin32

At least someone picked that up!

thought I was pretty clear... maybe not!?!

Fifth Ring

I guess it's all in marketing and consumer impressions. The whole 0-60 obsession has created cars designed around that speed range. So if you have a transmission that upshifts from 2 to 3 at 55 MPH (creating a brief hiccup) manufacturers will change gearing to move the shift past 60. Ridiculous.

I think 1/4 mile is a much better indication of overall power.

I also love the comparison tests showing 30 to 50 MPH when the comparison includes auto transmission and manual transmission cars. The autos downshift and accelerate quickly, and the manual transmission cars bog their way. What useful data does that generate?

Fifth Ring

Only one way to settle it. STREET RACE!!!! _________

CynCarvin32

You mean a 1992 325is with a 1998 M3 motor? Ya its pretty fun and light! Far faster than a lotus too!

Does not mean you cant expect a C63 to drive well. If we all expect a car only to go quickly the 60's would be back and we could all drive Roadrunners and crash and die once we had to stop and turn.

BMW M cars have always been better than AMG cars and AMG tried to close the gap with the C63. They did but they also went to far I think and lost the composure needed with the 450 hp.

We all sit here and say the MB rides better so the handling vs. ride trade off was the deciding factor. This time the C63 drives WORSE and it rides a lot WORE than the E90/E92 M car. So the key thing everyone loved about the C32, ride, is now gone and we still have the bad chassis dynamics.

Until people demand a new level of car AMG wont build what we want. I credit them for trying but they missed the peg.

Fifth Ring

I think AMG has two missions. The C class has to take on the M3, but all the other AMGs are "independent" meaning that they do not need to take on or match anything else. As a result, they are leaders in their respective classes. I wonder if they ought to give up on trying to be an M3 and proudly proclaim the car as a more livable sports sedan. Soften up the suspension and calm down the stying!

CynCarvin32

I see that point loud and clear. Trouble is they have given up the good ride and kept that out of control feel. So MB has a nice ride in their sporty car and it handles very well. Same with the Audi. If those two companies can get it right AMG should be able as well.

The E46 did not have a bad ride. It was just as firm as a C55. In reality the C55 was a better match to the E46 M3 than the C63 is to the E92 M3. So maybe AMG went backwards in reality? Maybe they tried to hard?

ZedStyle

0.01% of people who buy either car will ever push them hard enough for the difference between them to be apparent, and the odds of both cars pulling up to the same stop light and both being driven by people immature enough to want to race for 300 yards to the next light are miniscule, so basically it comes down to the reason why most people buy cars like this... "which one do i think will make me look cooler".

Fifth Ring

Ack!!! Too much honesty!

This is why MB gradually made all C-class (W203) look like the AMG. It's better to look good than to feel good!

chiphomme

I just think they're both really fast and arguing over acceleration numbers gets tedious. It isn't like we're comparing a C63 to 325i.

MikTrebla09

Just wanted to throw this into the mix for the sake of conversation:

R&T recently tested the E92, resulting were the following:

0-60mph - 4.1 sec
Lateral accel. - .98g
60-0 braking - 112ft

1/4 mile at 12.5 @ 114.8 mph

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

It's really interesting to see how this whole debate has wrung out. At first the M3 was completely disregarded as a total failure, but as the magnifying glass fixes itself on the C63, all isn't as dominant as it seems. One thing is for sure, the battle is closer than ever.

Too much bench racing though guys. Some of the comments are just ridiculous. Stoplight racing a C63 would be silly. If you want a stoplight racer then bring yourself over to the E55 forums and you can save yourself some money and frustration when you get yourself reamed by a 55k.

jtc55

my BAD i misread ur post.

bottom line is different strokes for different folks.

here in chicagoland, we have pretty much straight highways and roads so for me i want a car that has a lot of torque for the "seat of the pants" thrill.

i know street racing is silly and childish, my wife tells me all the time , but if there's healthy competition next to me at a light and he wants to go, who am i to refuse

CynCarvin32

If those figures prove correct the C63 better get the full 507 hp and not the 450 it has now.

.98g? good lord thats CaymannS territory.

Im just sad because the first round of reviews said the C63 was so much better than the M3 and now that its hitting the market the tune has changed 100%.

Oh well!

CynCarvin32

Agreed that it is different strokes for different folks. Your location likely is a big part of it. I dont have long straight roads with light traffic around. The sad reality is i have traffic everywhere and a C180 would get me to work just as quickly.

I can see the fun of a 600hp barge in the large open space some people have around. But I like on top of a big hill so I like going around corners even if its not at the limit of grip (to busy to do that out here).

And with that traffic street light stoplight fun often ends in a big mess. For me its not worth risking someone elses wife, kids, dad etc to get to the next light first.

There is a guy on here and MYMBOnline who runs around my area in his E350 taping his endless races against people on busy 2-3 lane wide roads with a 35 mph speed limit. Hes doing this at 100+ and he just goes out at night to find people to "run." That stuff pisses me off because he could so easily take out an entire family at that speed on these streets -- and this is just his way of filling hes free time. This is what happens when daddy buys his son/daughter a nice car without taking the time to instill values and a moral compass at the same time. Fine give your kids nice things but make sure they are not juvenile idiots. The best part? This kid is lame enough to post it all on youtube so that when he does kill someone the court can watch his 20-50 races and create a nice case for his long term jail stay.

MercedesFTW

Werd.

SolidGranite

Couldn't have said it better myself.

BTW, love your stable!