SebringSilver

I think SINCITY was talking about the cost of tunes in general, not specifically the MHP tune.

Sincity

Yes. That was my wishful thinking.

MarkoCL65

I have seen him take one for the team. He does that pretty well. His technique is flawless.

mrtesting

My mind might not be as knowledgeable or technically capable as many of you here, but after having read Tim's first post and having used my very little knowledge of computer programming, engineering, reverse engineering and alteration of software or hardware in order to squeeze more power out of a factory built device, an act which in the Information Technology world is referred to as Hacking.

It only makes sense what Tim is saying here.

MHP offers a TCU Tune, and they also claim to be able to do this by you sending them your Electronic Control Unit (ECU), when they clearly are not actually able to alter/hack or modify your TCU unless if they have full access to your Transmission unit which houses the TCU device as clearly shown in his first post. From an ethical stand point, MHP requires to inform their customers that they are merely editing a few limited settings on the ECU that order to the TCU as to how to operate based on the throttle response of the driver. However, a proper TCU tune goes beyond those sets of algorithms which are programmed into the ECU, and a proper TCU tune thus requires an entire set of new programming on the TCU. A tune which would have to reverse engineer the way the Transmission Unit actually responds to the changing of gears.

See, lets compare the C63 to a Macintosh computer Application. Right after Apple decided to change their entire CPU architecture from the IBM PowerPC to the Intel x86, if you wanted to run an Application on the new Intel based Macs, in order to keep a large group of market share that had already existed before the switch had been made, Apple programmers decided to categorize Applications into 3 categories:

PowerPC (Old)
Intel Only (New)
Universal Binary

So the solution that Apple programmers gave to the consumers like you, was that, it is ok if you want the brand new hot looking Macintosh computer, you can still run your old applications on the new system, however, your applications wont run as fast and smoothly as they did on the old system. How did they achieve that? By indirectly altering the software that spoke to the computer hardware, which in return allowed those old applications to be SIMULATED to run on the new machine. That Simulator or translator for a lack of better word of course was Rosetta.

Something which MHP has been doing to your ECUs. You for sure are going to see a slight change in speed, but MHP does not tackle the problem from the source. In order for MHP to give you a TCU tune, it would require for them to take apart your Transmission Unit, take out the TCU, Reverse Engineer the device, understand and perhaps SOMEHOW decode the Bosch encryption that Tim was referring to, get rid of the Rosetta look alike trick that they pull on the ECU that tricks the TCU into thinking that it can do something that it wasn't programmed to do so, and re-write a whole new set of rules on your TCU, and perhaps if they are good enough, make your C63 7 Speed Transmission shift like a Ferrari F430 Scuderia.

Sorry, it is late at night and I am tired, so my example might not have been the best.

mthis

hey brad you guys say no1 deletes post, what happen to andys post that he responded to tim about stealing.

impr

OT: Yeah for sure, I'm overseas at the moment so the c63 is under the care of my brother, but I definately wanna make it to one of the local meets when I get back.



Back on topic:

Mthis, what other ecu tuners have produced less than 410whp out of the box? I remember you or someone had problems with a powerchip tune, but aside from that I haven't heard anyone complain much about their renntech or kleeman reflash.

MB_Forever

Before I start, I want to clarify that I have no affiliation what so ever with Andy or Tim other than reading their posts on this site and maybe communicating with Andy a couple of times through different posts. I do not mean to take any sides by the points I'm raising, as I'm neutral to both parties.....

1) Regarding ECU adaptations..... every single tuner I've asked have told me the ECU will need around 200 miles of variable driving to fully adapt to the new changes. This is due to the intrinsic structure of the programming of TCU's adaptation. The list of tuners who have confirmed this include: RennTech, Kleeman, Brabus, Powerchip, VRP and Evosport (they both use Powerchip), MHP. The only two tuners that I know about but have not gotten a chance to ask them about the adaptations are LET and MKB. Most tuners vary slightly on their agreement to the number of miles needed for a complete adaptation, but from my experience, the average was around 200 miles.

2) Assuming the TCU cannot be flashed through the ECU, we would still not need to remove the entire trans valve body and ship it somewhere. Two different Mercedes dealership quoted me 1.5 to 2 hours to remove the TCU from my car and hand it to me, so shipping the tranny to flash the TCU is not required.

3) The idea that the TCU can be flashed through the ECU on new cars is not too far fetched. I recall one of the technicians that was working on my car told me that when Mercedes released a new TCU update, we (the dealer) flash it through the ECU. This means they do NOT take the TCU out for a complete flash. However, I've yet to confirm this, and will try to get a definite answer in the next couple of days.

4) I never understood what Andy meant by cracking the 128-bit encryption, as that is practically impossible. I'm assuming he was talking about a loop hole or a way around the encryption by re-flashing the ROM

5) Tim said that only Bosch can generate the keys..... this did not stop any tuners in the past and doesn't seem to stop any of the current tuners now either . Even the most capable software companies like Microsoft have their key algorithms cracked and on the market in a matter of days. I can't count the number of times where I read about people finding authentic key generator programs for almost EVERY SINGLE Microsoft program (as well as other programs from many other software companies). But assuming that only Bosch can now generate the keys, does that mean RennTech, Kleemann, Powerchip, Brabus, and MKB can NOT tune the ECUs anymore? We need more info here please......

6) Andy has posted many dynos of his car (done in 4th and 5th gear by the way while most other tuners shown 4th gear only), then you tube videos of the shift points, then track results both in ideal track conditions and not so ideal. Similarly, all his C63 customers who have tried his tune showed at least 60 whp increase on the dyno and very impressive gains on the track with incredible track results. However, it is true that we have not yet seen any data from a non C-Class tune, such as, E-Class, CLS-Class, S-Class, etc..... this is, of course, with the exception of Jim's Black Series, but because the car has lots of mods, it was hard to tell which mods attributed to which gains and I believe no dynos were taken to log and isolate the gains from the MHP tune alone vs the Evosport/Powerchip tune.

Sorry for the long post, but these are points that have been on my mind for some time, and I figured maybe some of the more experienced members can help comment on some of them.

paulGT3

WHat ever the story I thought the prices for these ECU flashes were grossly over priced.
ECU flashed on Porsche turbos are in the 1000-1500 range.
his prices of $4k-6k for this car at this price range is unacceptable. And if you consider
half is for the TCU tune that Tim says cant be done where does that leave you?

bigben320e

Very interesting indeed. Tim seems to really be on to something, I do think we should listen up. If this is true what Tim says, wow. Talk about whistle blowing.

I was considering getting a tune before, but after all of the drama, and crazy responses, I decided not to use anyone that is a sponsor on MBWorld. It really has me thinking to not even do it at all.

rarfinancial

Funny how evry time Andy is not around or allowed to post we get this kind of B.S Postings... Hey look TIM as stated before, Andy's # is all over here, so CALL HIM you yellow back usseypa.. Something smells bad around here , didn't Andy get banded for this same type of postings . WTF His email from the mods state just about word for word whats going on in this post.. If Andy, Jangy started this post it would be closed and they would be banned.. WHATS GOING ON AROUND HERE? WHO the F is timmy.. you must know the mods or you would have been shut down long ago.. so who due you know? did you get paid to post this? how much $ did you make? are you a spy? come on man spill the beans... all in all I hope nobody thakes you for real... have fun Timmy

MB_Forever

Another quick point....

From the beginning, I recall Andy/MHP stated what transmission characteristics they can alter exactly: shift firmness, shift speed, stall speed, etc..... now whether these parameters are found in the ECU or TCU or how they are exactly flashed or what they are called doesn't seem like it should matter as long as what was claimed is actually delivered , and I think almost every person with the MHP tune feels a significant difference in tranny behavior. Another question is if those parameters that are changed by MHP are easily changeable in the ECU, why aren't other tuners offering them with their ECU tunes (even when asked)?

Again, I'm not trying to side with Andy here or even argue one way or another, I'm simply trying to ask objective questions based on the info provided hoping we (mbworld members) can help each other to sort through this whole thing.

If any of you guys are close to the software technician at your local dealership, it'd be very helpful to ask them how they flash TCU updates when they are released? Do they take the TCU out to flash it or do they do it through the ECU? This should help clarify a few things

Merc63

The only positive note I got from this whole thread was:

Are you saying I can take my C63 to the dealership, get the E63 ECU flashed onto it and get the same HP rating as the E63? Considering they will do it at the dealership.. (I have a close friend who is a technician at the dealership.) I will be asking him tomorrow about this and the ECU>TCU tune.

Dads C63

Gentlemen,
You can be skeptical but see the proof. I'm not a paid sponsor or supporter, just someone that wants the most power I can get out of my C63. I originally purchased the complete MKB Stage II package and then the complete MHP V3 ECU/TCU package. The results are below. You can make your own decisions but here's what they did for me as of yesterday. We are making some more adjustments to improve the power further so there's more to come. Good luck racing.

jrcart

No, it is not that easy, besides that you will never find a dealer to do it.

DFW01E55

If you were to include the atmospheric conditions during your runs it might provide more evidence.
Could you explain which runs came from which tune?

I've seen a tuned C63 produce similar numbers on a Dyno Dynamics machine, so I'm not blown away by the MHP tune. The Dyno Dyn numbers were 10% lower on rwhp and less than 5% on tq, that equals similar ... according to most of our in house experts.

Dads C63

Orlando Florida - yesterday 2/9/09. Temps were in the high 70's. All these runs came from the new MHP tune. Back to back runs with some delay between a few. All in all probably done in an hour long process. The last two were made right behind each other when the car was the hottest and it made the most power. I'm just sharing what my results were. If you have similar results then you are making good power also. Any other questions?

otoupalik

We often "soft" delete posts that are against the TOU. Andy is on suspension for violation of many rules of the site. Had he not choose to willfully violate those rules, then he would be allowed to post. Posting through a second user is the same as posting yourself, and is a clear attempt to get around his suspension.

When his suspension is over and if he agrees to follow the same rules that 100,000+ other users follow, he can respond at that point and we have the ability to un-delete the posts.

Thanks
Brad

Zod

and what was your before dyno?
and was it at the same location
what would a stock E or cls 63 do with same headers as you and simple ecu tunning? as they are around 400-420 stock

but if you are happy thats what counts
wait...you have 118 trap and 122 trap which is which?

rarfinancial

CLOSE THIS THEAD......................

and my tranny only started in 2nd gear for a year until the dealer FLASHED my TCU through the ECU

KICKING A GUY WHEN HE IS DOWN IS SPINELESS....
LETS GET THIS THREAD CLOSED..
THIS GUY TIM HE JUST BROKE MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY AND THEN SOME RULES..

Dads C63

Zod - I'll try to answer a few of your questions:

and what was your before dyno? - stock was 358 - 360rwhp - dyno sheet is in the MHP vs MKB thread.
and was it at the same location - same dyno
what would a stock E or cls 63 do with same headers as you and simple ecu tunning? as they are around 400-420 stock - I have no way of knowing that?

but if you are happy thats what counts - VERY HAPPY with results!

wait...you have 118 trap and 122 trap which is which? Best ET was the 118mpg trap speed. Ran the 122 on stock street tires at the Super Car Shootout in Bradenton Florida. Great run and the track prep was great!

dlbello

Exactly my feelings... seems like most sponsors know the truth and are Not saying anything, fear of losing more customers.

I'm waiting until the smoke clears and then I'll decide which way to go...

BG Tuning

I think this is funny is it April Fools already, Some so called hacker/backwards engineer comes on this forum, starts a thread making false coments and untruths about a vendor who sponsers this fourm and has delivered a product that does what he says it does, allowed other people to drive his vehicle to prove it. Has called out other tuners for a shoot out to prove his product, posted multiple unbias track/dyno results, has tuned vehicles that have had prior other vendor custom tuning done already and surpased there results and 1/4 mile times, and this hacker is going to say all he does is install a e63 tune in the ecu. Now thats a joke! How funny is that! He has tuned the fastest vehicles to date including his own test vehicle to prove the tune. And as far as the TCU tuning this so called hacker shows a picture of a valve body with the solinoid pack ontop and says that is the TCU, now that is funny! Why don't you drop your laptop into a hot pan of oil and lets see how it works. Here pull out your valve body and send it to a tuner and have his tune it. Not going to happen!! The TCU processing is done within the ECU on some models and makes and he can tune it where other vendors cannot!! End of Story!! Close and delete this thread!!!!!

Glock Guru

I am so confused, now more than ever about the whole thing. It's he says he says about everything. Funny how every time Andy/MHP is put on suspention the bashing starts and he has no way to defend himself. I am so glad I got out of the automotoive aftermarket years ago.

I guess I will take my five grand and the whole family to Disney World for the Mardi Gras holiday and let this thing shake out.

Glock Guru

You made some good points. Like the guy or not (Andy / MHP) the proof is in black and white. I don't see any other tuners offering this much access and feedback on there products.


-Troy

stefario

So Mercedes detunes a car from the factory, conceviably to not have the "pony out running the horse" - they spend millions of dollers in protecting their ECU's from being hacked or "accessed" but all you have to do is flash a stock sl63 or e63 file (couple minutes, couple dollers and any one could do it) and you have what they (Mercedes) dont want you to have?

Yeah that makes a lot of sense, maybe someone in managment overlooked that piece of information and Mercedes just chose to ignore it for the last 2.5 years.