iftwb

No one asked or expects you to go buy the 335i... You can keep your C350, just smile when a 335i pulls away from you.

And funny that you mention that the 335i is no comparison to the new M3. There is a huge gap between the C63 AMG and the C350. But the gap between a E92 335i and E92 M3 is smaller than you think, definitely smaller than the performance gap between the previously mentioned pair.

A Z06 will kick the living crap out of a C63 AMG in all aspects. Sure a modded C63 AMG (modded with ECU, pulley, headers) is dangerously quick, but a stockor modded Z06 leaves a C63 AMG in the rear view mirror anyday of the week. Learn to know the limits of aerodynamic, top end and N/A tunes. The C63 AMG is a high performance saloon, not a 2-door, slimline shaped high performance vehicle.

iftwb

Reply to 1.
Of course the E92 335i doesn't compare to the W204 C63 AMG. Much like how the W204 C63 AMG just isn't on the same level as the E63 M6, no matter how fast or faster the C63 is than the M6. The 335i vs C63 and C63 vs M6 are very paralleled comparisons (to each other), that just can't be done!

The C63 AMG is a direct competitor to the RS4 and E90 M3. It was designed to compete and hopefully beat, but other than being faster on the straight, the true track performance car is the M3 - 'given respect where respect and entitlement is due' accordingly to Top Gear UK, Fifth Gear and Edmunds.

Reply to 4.
I agree with this, but its obvious why though. No 6-cylinder will ever sound like a 8-cylinder car. V8 is the sound of a car that all our ears love to listen to. It's the power, torque and stock exhaust note of the C63 that made me get it, nothing more...to be honest. I daily drive mine on highways - and thats all it will ever be to me.

Reply to 5. and last paragraph.
Stock for stock, a C63 AMG definitely out runs and out-handles a 335i, but when you bring the 335i on the same level to the C63, from my opinion that is, its definitely fun to drive.

You can't forget, one car being more fun than other is subjective - depends on how your rig is setup. If I had a 335i and it was quicker than my C63, I'd definitley be having more fun in it than when I drive my C63. Why? Because I'm looking at C63s in my rear view mirror, that's why.

hhughes1

A Z06 will kick the living crap out of a C63 AMG in all aspects. Sure a modded C63 AMG (modded with ECU, pulley, headers) is dangerously quick, but a stockor modded Z06 leaves a C63 AMG in the rear view mirror anyday of the week. Learn to know the limits of aerodynamic, top end and N/A tunes. The C63 AMG is a high performance saloon, not a 2-door, slimline shaped high performance vehicle.

Don't be so sure. I had the opportunity to follow a 2008 Z06 around Roebling Road Raceway for several laps. Granted we were in the novice group and passing was only allowed on the straight with a point by. My instructer used the term "present yourself" to slower cars in order for them to give you a point by(before they are blue flagged for holding you up) and when I came up behind the Z06 I "presented myself to his rear bumper" all the way around the 2 mile track. I am sure that he tried to pull away on the straight but was not able to gain an inch. This went on for three laps(SOB refused to give me a point) and straightaway speeds were upper 130's. Nearly every time I had a clean track I was in the low 140's on the straight. Please don"t bring up driver ability because it just doesn"t matter going down a straight line and I know he was really tired of me glued to his rear but just to damned stubborn to let me by. My car was not strong enough to leave him on the straights but neither could he leave me.

sflgator

My C63 AMG is now RENNtech ecu flash tuned with 515HP; so for me anyway (considering I know exactly what a tuned 335i is capable of), a run-in with a tuned 335i would be interesting to say the least.

all8up

There's more to it than just that, the N54 uses direct injection and currently nobody offers higher capacity injectors and the same goes for the high pressure fuel pump. The stock turbos are welded to the manifold so the upgrade path (stock turbo locations) will be limited to the current housings. I am not saying it is not possible but the housings (exhaust and compressor) are very small.
I agree that the N54 is fairly stout and despite having an aluminum block, the cylinders are sleeved. On that note, I cannot fathom what people are going to charge for forged pistons and rods...

Brisk335

HPF and AMS are working hard on alot of componets for the N54 335i motor, including a upgraded fuel pump and system, along with turbo upgrades.

BTW as far as handling/braking vs the 2:

*2007 335i coupe AUTO with sport package RFT tires-

30mph-0mph= 28ft
60mph-0mph= 114ft

Slalom- 68.4mph
Skidpad- 0.88g

*2008 C63 AMG with performance package-

30mph-0mph= 30ft
60mph-0mph= 114ft

Slalom- 68.6mph
Skidpad- 0.89

*Edmunds

C-Class_GREEK

I will keep my c350... I would only hope he pulls away from me considering he has 30+ horses and 40+ torques.

how is it funny. one is standard edition an other is M tuned. wow really there is a really huge gap between c63 (AMG) and a REGULAR c-class.

Nobody said you had to get a z06...just smile when one passes you.

iftwb

I'm suprised you can identify the 'M' in M3. The problem is, you didn't read my post properly. I didn't say there wasn't a difference, or that the difference isn't noticeable; its just not as big as you would expect for the price difference you pay AND in comparison to the difference between a C63 and a standard W204.

And about the Z06 comment... out of thin air... out of thin air....

As someone mentioned, maybe the E92 335i might be the next Supra. With due time, we'll see more and more kits and maybe even similar component modifications like what we can do with a 2JZ.

I know there are plenty of things, just saying from a general idea. We could talk about the limitations of the 335i based on the lack of other necessary turbo/supercharge components. In actual sense, the market for 335i is still new, its not as immersed as the market for which similar engines have.

Take for instance what you mention about the turbo housings. Like Japanese cars, if you want more boost from a bigger turbo setup, your going to have to change the housing or exhaust manifold where the turbochargers are positioned.

Very interesting. Even more interesting when the market of 335i's gets bigger. Maybe soon, you'll see a 800-1000hp 335i going past you. Just imagine a Supra, but with a BMW badge on it.

Fair enough, but your account is one account. Unfortunately, even if I were you, racing times submitted from more professional, experience, competition based drivers (so to speak - no offense!) hold more credibility. And for that reason, it is one of the prime reasons that the Z06 holds a 'supercar' sorts of track times in comparison to the track times possible from a C63.

Come on, a C63 AMG struggles against an M3 around the track.

MikeS54

On paper the handling of both car might be very similiar but in reality theres quiet a big gap stock for stock.

Despite 335's braking distance being same as C63, its brakes are not in the same league as C63's brakes. 335's brakes is one of the car's big weak point for drivers who actually use their cars.

Suspension wise i would say C63 is a lot more grippier at the limit and the steering ratio is slightly better than 335 as well. (big part of this is due to 335's ****ty runflat tires)

Heres the way i wanna put these two cars

stock for stock theres almost no comparison

stock 63 vs maxed out 335 on stock turbo = C63 still wins due to better brakes, a lot more realiability = useable power at the track. Running aggressive maps with high psi on the track you are pretty much asking your engine to blow at some point.


Modded 63 is is easily better than a moded 335

Now i admit that in the not so far future 335 will be hitting amazing numbers with some new turbo kit. 800hp 1000hp over 1000hp is not impossible.

However once you start moving on to bigger turbos you will not only face more lag, a big engine build, much better fmic, fuel system, better intake manifold, and maybe meth to provide extra cooling.

Yes you will get good power maybe 600-700hp and, yes, maybe the build engine will last but in the end you will probably be easily putting over 30k into the car and its just not worth it.

Honestly you can put pretty much 30k + into any turbo car and get 600+hp.

So one day if i see a modded 335 with mega power passing me i will just smile and wish him good luck (hopefully his engine wont blow) and trust me on this unless the guy is sponsored and **** he will regret modding his car to that level in the end.

iftwb

How can you conclusively say that when there is literally no market for F/I for C63s compared to the market for F/I found in the 335i.

At F/I level, it will always be greater in yielding benefits in comparison to N/A tunes. There are always disadvantages to all engineering designs, it only takes time to ultimately master them, inevitably. Don't forget, F/I is the future, not N/A.

And since both the C63 AMG and the E92 335i have not fully immersed themselves into aftermarket F/I - again, I ask you; how do you conclude a modded 63 is better than a 335i? Not all F/I systems fail, despite the higher probability rate of failing - but that doesn't turn people away anyway. It's no wonder G-Power, Brabus and HPF are making so much money. Because most of their systems are reliable...which leads me onto say; it only takes time to master an engineering design/concept.

all8up

Yes I'm fully aware of the AMS upgraded fuel pump and the HPF turbo project and as of today nothing has been delivered. Upgrading the fuel pump only addresses a part of the fuel equation and does not address the injectors whatsoever. Also, the turbo build by AMS is just a rebuild by FP for something north of 3k (I guess is a bargain compared to the ASR). Considering I have sent 4 turbos in my past to FP for rebuilds anywhere between 3-600, it definitely has me questioning the validity of the "BMW tax".

Also, does this brake take any fade into the equation? I know for a fact my 335 (with upgraded rotors and pads) would start to fade something fierce after a few high speed runs followed (obviously) by hard braking.


Whoever said the N54 will be the next 2JZ well....the 2JZ is an iron block and the N54 is aluminum and good luck fitting a T-60 trim under the hood of the 335.

I am not a 335 basher, and in fact I think it was one of the best cars I have ever owned. I probably would still own my till this day but my friend offered to buy the entire car as is (at a fair market price). However, I recognize the upgrade path from the current state of my car was about to get exponentially expensive and I needed to stop before I spent another 6k.

sflgator

And other car mags saw 0.92-0.94g on the skidpad and better braking for the C63 AMG. I know you've driven both cars, but come on, you should know the C63 AMG handles better and brakes better than a stock 335i.

Nachtsturm

Im talking used vs used.

High 20's for 335 vs high 40's for a c63.

If the price were the same, no doubt, I'd go with the C63. But for 20k difference the 335i is one hell of a nice compromise. And I enjoy modding and love forced induction, plus 30mpg on the highway ain't too shabby either. At the prices of the C63 used, that is 996 911T prices.

If the mazda tuners can find a solution for their fuel pump with the Mazdaspeed3,6's I am sure the bimmer guys will figure it out.

I still don't think these will ever because present day supras though.

My friends 94 bpu supra with a 130K miles original everything(albeit clutch, tires, etc) just went 11.8@118.xx. I can't see a 335i doing that without gernading itself.

Veho

A 335i and C63 is not in the same league. C63 and M3 are. I would say the 335i is more in the league of an Evo. I have an Evo 9 and I could tune it up to 1000+hp if I wanted to. I would never do that of course and never understood ppl who do that unless its for real racing!
Same with a 335i I guess you can mod it all you want. Hey, you could even put a jet engine on it and I am sure you would beat a C63. And then you can add wings and it will fly too!!! How many of those highly tuned ones do you see on the road and if you do... If the car is modded so that it will beat a C63 it prob will brake soon.
For example theres a video of a highly tuned 335i beating a C63 ONLY after its on high boost race map.. The car (335i) has problems went to limp mode twice during the few times they raced when the C63 beat it. So yes it looks like they aren´t all that reliable to mod.. At least if you take the modding to the lever where it is near a M3 or C63. The car is just not meant to be in the same league as those two.
Same with me and my Evo.. Now that is a car that is made and can handle to be modded very close to the class of the M3s and C63s but still.. I wouldn´t do it because it will cost money and the car is great as it is and I dont want it to break down on me.
Now saying that I believe all cars can be modded a bit but I don´t think it´s too smart to mod them all too much. It will cause problems sooner or later. So I think one needs to be smart about how much to mod and to know the limits of the car. Clearly everyone does not.

My point when I wrote about my run in with a 335 was that when you race a 335i on the streets 99% of the time the C63 will beat the 335i and that might be why some C63 owners don´t even bother to race. Personally I would if the conditions are safe. i have nothing to fear when taking on a 335i as no C63 driver should.

Also why do people compare a Z06 vs a C63? They are also not in the same league. In my opinion any AMG can be compared against any M series model (M3, M5, M6 etc) or S and RS series or any "normal" car. But not against lambos or ferraris or other SUPERCARS. They can race, but not be compared to each other.

Last thing. If I modded my Evo so I would beat any AMG, Ferrari, Lambo etc. I would still take an Amg or ferrari or Lambo over my Evo. And that is prob how the 335i feel about the M3 or C63 too.

sflgator

True, but fyi, you won't get 30mpg on the hwy with the 335i; best I ever saw was 26mpg...not bad but not 30mpg.

benyl

I drove from Calgary to Salt Lake City in August. About 1000 miles. Averaged 29 mpg (calculated by hand) and averaged about 75 mph while moving. It is possible if slow down a bit... hahaha

Other tid bits:

95% of the suspension in the 335 is the same as the M3. Don't remember exactly which parts need switching out, but the strut bar, springs, shocks and roll bars need switching. I think that this can be done for about $2K.

We know that the M3 typically out handles the C63 and for $2K, you can do the same. Another $1K for a piggy back or a flash and you are at M3 power levels with better torque. Around the track, a 335 with $3-4K in mods will give a C63 a good run for its money. It doesn't need 1000 hp to run with a different crowd.

The 335 also has a better Auto Transmission. I have yet to confirm this myself (C63 is in the rail yard waiting to be delivered to the dealer), but by all accounts it is true.

iftwb

Thank you....

Some people just have too much high hopes for their car. Honestly...Z06. One of the top 5 fastest cars on the Nurburgring and just about on any other track, and they want to compare a C63 (with or without an LSD) to a Z06. Forget the Z06! A C63 struggles against an M3 around a track, let alone a Z06.

And on the straights, possibly. But what does straight-line racing prove? It is the track that tests all the variables of a car. And the problem is, 98% of standard production AMGs aren't great at this. The only cars that are great at track performance from AMG, are the AMG Black Series. Everything else can't handle for bananas compared to an M car or an R8.

Seriously, a stock bone OR modded (irregardless) E46 CSL manages to slaughter any AMG (CLK DTM, SL Black, CLK Black) on the Ring:

7:22.9 - 169.07 km/h - Loaded BMW M3 CSL, 532.7 PS/1427 kg, Richard Goransson (nov,15 07)
7:50 --- 157.79 km/h - BMW E46 M3 CSL, 360 PS/1421 kg (sport auto 08/03)

Links:
http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID...3&viewThread=y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgMR9OVEDIY

Comparing a C63 to a Z06 is just a dream...

EWT

Interesting thread. I'm thinking about replacing my 95 BPU Supra with either a C63, M3 or 335. I like the motor in the C63 by far the best, although the lack of a manual transmission is a negative and the ride is unnecessarily stiff. I like the handling of the M3 the best, but don't like the Honda style motor. The 335 is significantly cheaper alternative that can be modified to be significantly better than stock in both the motor and handling department. Tough decision. A M3 with a C63 motor would be the perfect solution for me.

sjhugh

Talking purely from a stock point of view, I find with my C63 when pushed hard through the mountain roads becomes unsettled and can’t make use of its available power. My 135i on the other hand with less power not only has a much better feel from the driver’s seat, it’s more composed and launches out of the bends with purpose. I’m not saying it’s a great car through the corners, far from it but it does make better use of its potential. Still if I had to give one of them up, the 135i would go. The C63 to me is all about an adrenaline rush from noise and acceleration which is perfect for a street car without being insane. Modded vehicles, well that’s a very different story, name your budget and the car will react accordingly.

.

Jae Duk

Actually my friend got 31-32mpg

ytryc32amg

You are absolutely right about the aspect of about taking the time to master these engineering concepts. But I honestly feel as far as aftermarket F/I is going to be heaviliy favored over N/A. Because of it is to my opinion that you can get more power out F/I cars easier than N/A. Yes we all the 335i has brought some competition to the table because of its setup. But the C63 should not even be compared to it not just because of class wise but they are totally to different animals. As far as I'm concerned if I had to pick a choice the C63 would be it for daily driver use not fully a modded 335i. So what if a 335i can leave a c63 in the dust when modded right, I'm more concerned about reliablilty issues. At least I wouldn't have to worry about the engine detonating over time especially if it wasnt tuned right. But to me the c63 as of right now is to hard to modify since the market doesnt supply as much parts that you to need to get the most power out of these like the c63 owners crave. All I'm saying if there was some way the c63 has some type of F/I upgrade options (like the 335i) on it some the owners would probabiliy jump on it in a heart beat. But unfortnately thats not the case. So like I was saying I honestly can see great potential in the 335i later down the road but as of right now its not even a comparison. Because they totally different , but the respect is still given to it though.

shchow

Please provide any reference you may have for this statement, because I am almost positive that that is incorrect.

benyl

Many people on the e90post board have done the research:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177028

Tisher, a big online retailer of BMW parts has a complete kit to do the conversion:

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...catalogid=4462

Brisk335

I was comparing the edmunds mag since they use the same equipment and same track to test all there cars, even though the conditions might not be the same.
Mixing mag test/results cannot be done since they use different equipment on different tracks/testing areas.


Take it as it is, i drove a C63 once and it felt less more communicative than my 335i. Handling wise, i didnt drive them on the race track to really get there full potential and when they are that close from the results i posted ( even though the C63 was a PP) it would be hard to tell.

As a good friend of mine has extensively tested both and owns a modded C63 (mthis) i will take his word on it when he says the 335i handles better and that it is much harder to put good use on the corners of the C63. Yes, thats coming from a C63 forum member who has tested both.

Yes, some of this is true, AMS might be changing plans soon though.

HPF will be offering everything you have described. Give em a shout they may or may not share that with you though.


They are both great cars in there own respects, V8 NA power and I6 TT power. Stock for stock = C63.. Some good info has been shared in this thread, hope we can keep it this way

MikeG_C63_AMG

+1

This statement is complete .