C63newdude

Well, It is 8pm Tucson local time(mountain) and I am watching TV(Speed channel) and I can't believe there is not a single mercedes representation from Mercedes on this CTS challenge.
There are a few private owners that brought :Audi RS4, Evo X MR,Jaguar S/C, BMW M-3 and BMW M-5 but I am still in shock to see absolutely no Mercedes representation at all.

I am not sure if this was one single event or multiple days event but for good sake someone in Cali grab your AMG and represent us(Monticello racetrack). If they were to do this in AZ I would represent MB in a heartbeat regardless if I am good or bad driver, I think by not having any mercedes representation we might give the impression that Mercedes can't compite.

The rule is so simple, 4 door sedan stock, that is it!! Can someone bring their E or C class AMG?

ericpd

Yeah,... it's almost like they were hiding out at the local MB dealership waiting area. I dunno, I'm wondering if Lutz in some way discouraged participation from AMG. I'm sure we would have heard about it if he or GM engaged in any under-handed stuff. If nothing else, I'm almost certain we would have heard some complaining from AMG, the autorags or some rejected AMG owners by now.

But I'm with you, I would have liked to have seen the new E63 in this event at the very least.

retardedmunk

The Cts-v is 2 times a C63 is.......and the CTS-v is half a 2006 S65 is

based on current cost and quality

C63 DTM AMG

i tried to bring mine but they wouldnt let me enter becuase im under 21...

dockt

Sorry in advance b/c I did not go through the previous multi-page post about this "challenge" but the show seemed to be a big commercial to me. If you can get a couple of "private" owners on the panel, then I doubt this was anything too "official." Also, this is all kind of hokey I think -- these days, one could round up a bunch of his friends w/ really nice cars, do a youtube video and have almost as much impact as this show did. The commentating and generic interviews ("cars great, track's great") were just too.... generic. Having said that, I am in no way saying that the CTS-V is not a great car. Just my .02

C63newdude

What I saw on TV was just only 5 private owners bringing their own cars and the other half of the cars were Cadillac CTS-V driven by semi professionals. The person that created this challenge is 77 years old and he was driving/representing Cadillac, at least he was fair game by putting his money where his mouth is.

I am still scratching my head about not seing a Lexus ISF, Merdes c63 AMG, E63 AMG, E 55 AMG,Audis RS6, etc, etc. The least I could expect is Mercedes Benz hiring a professional driver and sending a couple of Mercedes AMG to that event, perhaps a C63 with the PP. This would be a good chance in our end to show that Mercedes is also capable. Just my .2c

SebringSilver

I don't see what's the big deal that no private owners of AMGs decided to participate in this. It's a publicity stunt by GM, and the only kinds of companies that resort to such tactics are those that have something to prove. Mercedes-Benz has nothing to prove as it is clearly the superior product.

Silly.

QuadBenz

1st amg

I was so excited to watch this program, only to be disgusted and hurling in my living room, this was awful, Speed should never air anything so amatuerish and so biased, if Bob Lutz wanted to race and compare against the best then that is what he should have done, missing AMG or even Lexus ISF who are the main cars to compete against is just a farce, to include an overwieght British piggy (jaguar 2009), not even the 2010 XFR is ridiculous...finally, most people who are interested in a car show like this want and need to hear the cars on the track, you could not here any car or motors whatsoever, maybe cadillac is embarassed that their car sounds like crap unless it is fitted with an aftermarket exhaust, this was just so sad, I will continue to watch my TOP GEAR religiously as they know what they are doing.

generalhh

Truth be old when this all started it was jalopink that was going to race a c63 vs lutz in the cts-v. That however changed when reportledly MB USA did not want to have the c63 in the comp. (according to Jalopink).

I own a c63 and can honestly say the cts-v is a faster better handling and better value that will wax all our butts (c63). And with a tune the cts-v is crazy fast. Oh and the interior I nicer also. But in the end it's not a Merc.

Truth be told if the wife gets pregers soon we will drop th c63 and pickup the cts-v wagon.

ATL_MB

A number of people tried to participate in this, but GM decided who got to drive and who didn't, and what they could bring. In the end, it was a car commercial, and just proved who the fastest driver in a CTS was that day. I am sure that Mercedes and BMW (and others) both knew this and that is why they refused any manufacturer support.

ericpd

Please stop! You're making my sides hurt.

SebringSilver

I think you're the one who needs to wake up and smell the coffee and stop being ridiculous. Go to any nearby shopping mall in your area, pick out randomly 20 people and ask them whether they would prefer a Mercedes-Benz or a Cadillac. I guarantee you the vast majority will prefer the Mercedes-Benz.

Your last comment here proves that you're nothing but a troll, Eric. Your continual pretense at being unbiased and offering "insight" into the CTS-V is nothing more than an attempt to slate the C63 AMG. I didn't even mention that the C63 is "the clearly superior product" in my post. I said Mercedes-Benz is the superior product, and if you don't agree with that (that Mercedes-Benz is superior in virtually every way to Cadillac), then you need to get your sense of reality adjusted.

The Cadillac dealer here doesn't stock CTS-Vs because, according to their own salespeople, "nobody would ever buy one".

Anyway, in so far as the CTS-V Challenge is concerned, it's no different from the Pepsi Challenge that was done all those years ago. Pepsi wanted to prove it was just as good-tasting as Coke, hence the Challenge. You don't see Coke doing a "Coke Challenge". You know why? Because Coke, like Mercedes-Benz, is The Real Thing. Cadillac...is not.

ericpd

Oh I agree with you statement that it was a terribly biased set-up in favor of Cadillac,... no question there. My rolling all over the floor was in response to your comment last two sentence,... "It's a publicity stunt by GM, and the only kinds of companies that resort to such tactics are those that have something to prove. Mercedes-Benz has nothing to prove as it is clearly the superior product."

All automakers have something to prove,... continuously. Their efforts to prove themselves is an never-ending endeavor. The millions they spend annually in car ads is what first comes to my mind, and MB has concocted their share of stunts as well. And don't forget the old saying,... "Win on Sunday, sell'em on Monday." I'd say MB as dumped more money in racing than any other automaker save Ferrari and possibly Posche,... Where do you think all their heritage and pedigree comes from? But the last of these two sentences was the granddady of'em all. Superior product? Really?

SebringSilver

Advertising for the sake of getting and keeping your name in the minds of prospective customers is one thing, concocting a phony race track challenge to all comers is another. To try to compare an officially sanctioned motorsport event where every participant is playing in accordance with the same allowable engineering parameters to an event that is handicapped by the "run-what-you-brung ethos provided it's stock" is completely pointless. Automakers don't build cars according to a uniform set of rules even if the products they make compete in roughly the same market segment.

As for Mercedes-Benz being superior to Cadillac, across the whole range of their respective product lines, I'd say it's a resounding "yes", without reservation. You're in a deep state of denial if you don't agree, but I'll leave you to think about that tonight before making yourself sound even more silly.

Jim Brady

Cadillac spent months testing and giving rides to members at Monticello Motorsports Club. If anyone came close they stacked the deck with John Heinricey and Johnny O'Connell plus their familiarty with the track. I noticed that the track got faster as the track dried out. Even the kid in the M3 who had a better time stood no chance after the track dried out because his day was done.
AMG's only chance would have been a new E63 with the performance package and ...Bernd Schneider and that would not have happened.
I admire Cadillac's attempt to break into the high performance sedan league, but it came off as a one sided marketing stunt. Did anyone here go out and buy a CTS V after this test?

SebringSilver

Good point and the answer is almost certainly "no". This marketing stunt wouldn't even have had to happen in the first place if the CTS-V was selling with any reasonable measure of success. The reality is no one is buying the Cadillac, and that's why they did this. Desperate times calls for desperate measures.

Jons95c36amg

I wouldnt spend $50k+ for a Cadillac brand. Lexus or Benz definitely yes. I like the C63 and ISF.

ericpd

Yeah I agree. This challenge definitely wouldn't motivate me to go out and buy a V. Now maybe if one were on the fence poised and had trouble making a choice, maybe it would be enough to push one. But even that's a stretch. I think it was more feel good than anything else with a good dose of confirmation that Caddy now deserves a seat at the Super Saloon table. Not necessarily at the head of the table,... that changes from year to year, but a reserved seat at the very least. Next year, if M5 and M3 gets MBW's 4.4 TT plant, it will prolly be one of those. If MB anoints the C63 with their new MCT and stop shoving a eunuched 6.2 mill under it's bonnet, then it may turn out to be the C63. Of course, MB would have to do something about the C63's left-footed handling, but still the C63 has every right to head that table as any of them. But as of this moment, if the table's judge criteria of a performance car is it's performance prowess, it's the Caddy CTS-V that every one looks to to say the grace before eating. Some say the main criteria of success at this table is the leather vs plastic balance, or the level of badge pedigree, or some other non-performance mark, but many say those criteria would be best maximized at a table populated by non-performance saloons. I happen to agree.

But back to the televised show,... I was disappointed. Would have liked to have seen a more level field with clear categories for pro and amature(sp) drivers. Some analysis of each car's strengths and weakness would have been nice too. Kinda wished Jeremy Clark was in charge of the party.

gnxs

Exactly why an event like the CTS-V Challenge was proposed to begin with, to get people to think more about performance and virtues of the cars themselves, not just the "names" of the manufacturers.

Admittedly you didn't mention any reasoning behind your statement, but considering you have both a dyno chart and quarter mile times in your signature (I'm assuming power and speed are of some interest to you), your post in this thread has me a little confused.

SebringSilver

Sure, that's fine. They need to convince people about the merits of their new car which might otherwise get overlooked if they don't broadcast it far and wide. All's fair in love and marketing. But what's ridiculous is when people like Ericpd come into the C63 forum suggesting that AMG owners were afraid to participate (see Post #2). It's a juvenile attempt at baiting forum members and makes him look like there's a very large chip on his shoulder indeed.

Going back to the challenge itself, if the powers that be at Cadillac/GM had any intent to showcase their CTS-V in a contest that harboured even a hint of objectivity, they'd round up 5 or 6 direct competitors such as the M3 Sedan, M5, IS-F, RS6, E63, and C63, separate the drivers into two groups (Professionals and Enthusiasts) and let them take the wheel of each car for a number of laps around the track, then record their feedback without censorship and just let the chips fall where they may.

I'd wager the sports sedan purchasers of the world would respect Cadillac a great deal more if they had attempted to do it that way.

azlane

I'm with you SebringSilver.

MJ50

MB owners aren't as active when it comes to events compared to others...

gnxs

Haven't the auto mags and track times at place like the Nurburgring for example already addressed all of that. When it came out there were numerous comparos with it's competitors (the M3 and IS-F are not considered competitors...because of their size I guess ) done by mags, TV shows, lap time comparisons, etc. and the Caddy won all those contests (although it recently lost one against the new E63, the Jag finishing 3rd).

Seems to me, partially validated by comments on this forum, that the real challenge for Cadillac is winning over current Benz, BMW, Audi, etc. owners that unlike most cars coming from the domestic mfrs., this one not only wins the when it comes to the raw numbers, but also in the feel and full "driving experience" as well. I've seen this "Challenge" discussed at length on quite a few automotive forums (including all of those Cadillac would consider competitors), and the publicity "bang for the back" quotient seems to be fairly high. Many people even mentioned wandering down to their local Cadillac dealer for a test drive of the new CTS-V.

To address your last sentence, Cadillac DID try to do it that way. I've noticed that the vast majority of people (particularly those on forums that the CTS-V would be a challenger to), haven't bothered to research and understand the premise (the actual ground rules) of the Challenge. Every mfr. was invited to provide a factory example of the best performance sedan in the CTS-V's segment and the driver of their choice (which is why GM also had Pro Drivers on hand for the Challenge). This story was widely published in the weeks leading up to the "Challenge":

http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1...ts-v-challenge

On the other hand, I also don't think that privateer AMG Benz owners were afraid to participate in the Challenge. They likely weren't picked to run or were disqualified per the Challenge rules (their cars were not performance sedans or were modified from stock in some way). I would guess there was probably alot of people trying to get their cars in the Challenge that logistically couldn't be accomodated. Just a guess on my part. I also understand why a Mfr. would not send a car directly. Since Cadillac had almost total control of how the results were portrayed, they were going to be able to "spin" it how they wanted. If a competitor eeked out a track victory, they could play up the price difference. If they lost outright, the could play both angles, etc. etc. There was very little potential upside and alot of potential downside for a competing mfr. However, in my mind, the Challenge itself and the buzz it created (and I'm not talking the cheesy 30 minute show on Speed) was worth it for Cadillac. Every post on this subject on various BMW, MB, Audi, Jaguar, etc. forums winds up carrying on for multiple pages and generates passionate discussion.

As to Ericpd posts here, I don't think he really believes that AMG owners were scared , although I may be wrong, but that h was just tossing in a little dig. Obviously people on an MB board are going to be sinsitive to a comment like he made in post 2. He seems to primarily post replies to the type of posts where somebody says something to the effect that they wouldn't even considering the CTS-V merely for the fact that it's made by Cadillac or GM. I totally understand people choose cars for many subjective reasons and that in many cases a new M5, C63, RS6, etc. are the better choices for many people (all fantastic cars). But dismissing the new CTS-V as a POS just because of it's badging is an act I always viewed as the exclusive domain of the fanbois, not true auto enthusiasts. If I remember his sig correctly, ericpd owns a new CTS-V, but also owns or has owned MB products. Seems to me he'd have a somewhat unique perspective to add, even if somebody may not like his delivery or his message.

When I see continuing posts from people here and on the BMW M3 and M5 boards stereotyping that the CTS-V "Can't handle once the road turns" merely because it's a dometic car, I understand both EricPD's frustration and the enormous challenge Cadillac has to gain market share, even with a fantastic car like the CTS-V.

My $0.02.

SebringSilver

No one is dismissing the CTS-V out of hand here. It is what it is: a high-performance sedan with limits that exceed quite a few of its direct competitors. Its problem is it resides in a product line made up of constituents that have traditionally been targetted at a very different buyer. In some respects, it faces a similar challenge to that of the IS-F, whose majority of stablemates are also aimed squarely at the more geriatric car buyer. And while both the IS-F and CTS-V are very capable sports sedans, they have to make do in the marketplace without the benefit of decades of autoracing success to back up their claim to be amongst the elite of their market segment. It's the difference between being in acquisition mode (Lexus and Cadillac) and retention mode (MB, BMW, Audi).

As for Ericpd, I personally don't have a problem with him. I don't own MBWorld so it's not my place to say what you can and cannot post here. But I do know well enough when someone's thinly veiled attempts at "discussion" are in fact propaganda and condescension, so why not just recognize it for what it is and stop pretending?