lolachampcar

Hi All.

I have just finished moving my ME97 (ECU for all current MB except V12tt and diesel) programmer and data logger to a mass storage class device set up (like a memory stick) and am in need of some field testing and feedback in the South Florida area.

I am selling nothing but am willing to provide a programmer/logger for a few people willing to do some testing. No worries if you already have tuned software on the car as I can easily move it to the programmer so you can switch between stock and tuned or two tuned files. Some tuners work with their customers using this feature to move from high octane calibrations for the track and a regular tune for street use. I AM NOT A TUNER AND I DO NOT SELL TUNES.

The risk is low as this device is a derivative of a programmer that has been shipping for over a year.

Please PM me if you have interest or questions.

Thanks,
Bill

Raleighc63

Just who are you?

Maybe a better explaination of what you are trying to do is needed

superlubricity

Sounds cool. I sent you a PM.

Dads C63

Great way to get copies of custom software, beware!!

superlubricity

or this could be a great new solution for data-logging/ECU map switching.

Innocent until proven guilty. There is no harm in getting more data.

mthis

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

lolachampcar

I received a text message last night. I am unsure who wrote it but it went like this-
“Keep your tool away from my ecus please. I’m emailing all my customers abt your offer (including a race gas map, really?) Now. Thanks.”

Before anyone else has an issue, I would like to clarify a few points.

First
I am not selling anything on this forum. I am not a registered vendor. I am simply looking to field test the latest version of an existing programmer.

Second
I do not tune. Tuners provide tunes and I provided tools for tuners to aid them in distributing their work efforts.

I responded to one enquiry yesterday and explained that the tool has been used by end customers in concert with their tuners to switch between high octane maps for track usage and a more mild tune for lower octane pump fuel. I did not provide either “tune” but it is true that the 63 will benefit from a little more ignition lead if the fuel will support it. This is not rocket science and the idea of adding ignition lead to gain power is no super secret.

lolachampcar

I have been asked many times about the safety of ECU calibration data and how hard would it be to get this or get that from an ECU. The answer varies a bit depending upon the ECU but the overall answer is similar. Some ECUs support reading (MSD80/81/85 in twin turbo BMWs for example) directly by the programmer through the OBDii port. I read the original file on these when my programmer first attaches to the vehicle to preserve it. My read does not distinguish between “stock” or “tuned” and both are saved on the programmer in an encrypted format. MB does not support reading via OBDii so standard bench reprogramming tools must be used (BDM for ME97 or Boot Strap for ME2.7/2.8) to read these ECUs.

The short answer for the above question is that almost any ECU can be read. My standard comment to tuners trying to protect their tunes is “Once you ship it, it is out in the world for everyone to see.”. It is like buying a Yates big block and pulling the tops off the carburetors to see what emulsion tubes or mains the tuner used. Some customers will do this and there is a good argument for them having the right to do so. I do not pass judgment on the morality of this reality; I am just stating the fact that most ECUs can be read and it is very hard to prevent it.

I do not tune on other people’s cars as this would put me in direct conflict with those that provide my programmers as part of their tuning packages. I have no interest in what is on any one ECU. I am only interested in making sure anyone that is interested in helping with field testing the latest version of the programmer does not loose what they have paid for. I provide tools, not tunes.

lolachampcar

I build reflashing tools for tuners. In this instance, I provide ME97 programmers. I am not a tuner and I do not sell tunes.

As for what I am trying to do, I have an existing design for the ME97 that has been shipping for over a year. Moving information on or off the device (Log Data files or calibrations) required the installation of custom USB drivers and a Windows application. A vast majority of the support issues dealt with the PC software and/or USB drivers/installation and not the tool itself. I have addressed these issues by moving away from a custom USB device and over to a Mass Storage Class (MSC) type framework. Most operating systems (Linux, Mac and Windows) have native support for MSC devices so now, when the device is attached to any of the above type computers, drivers are loaded automatically by the operating system and a folder appears on the desktop. The end user can now drag and drop calibration and/or log data files on/off the folder at will with no hastle. The process is identical to plugging in an ordinary memory stick device.

The base reflashing and data logging routines are unchanged. However, I implemented a small portion of the overall MSC specification and not the whole as this would have consumed too much of the available storage on my device. Bench testing is complete and I would like to field test the overall concept to confirm the basic functionality and to make sure I address any end user issues.

James@ACG

Bill you have a PM...

I want a few sets.

rarfinancial

Sounds like you really know what you're doing. Thanks for another door in the modding of the 63's

MB_Forever

Very interesting topic....

Regarding the MSC framework, would the supporting drivers change when the card itself changes? The reason I'm asking is that I sometimes see many changes in the type and size of memory cards and my understanding is that their physical dimensions and internal architecture changes often, and most of the time the new card is not backward compatible with the old one. So for example, if I purchase a laptop today that accepts certain types of memory cards and two years later, I get a new laptop which supports (physicall) different types of cards, what happens then? Would some type of USB adapter suffice or would it still require special handling?

cyberorth

Are you able to discuss what you need to do to the car/ecu to perform your test?
For example, does this method eliminates the need to crack open the ecu box?

lolachampcar

Sorry guys, I stepped away for a few days. Moving my shop and need to get a car put back together before the move.

MB uses 1024 bit RSA key protection for reprogramming. Unlike the BMW ECUs, no one has found a hack to get around it. The only thing that I am aware of to date is a simple edit (like a calibration edit but just in a different area of memory) to disable the RSA part. This is a one time change that requires opening the ECU and using a BDM tool in the same way calibration reflashing is done by all tuners. Once done, the ECU calibration data can be changed in under a minute through the OBDii port.

This change does not impede MB service in any way. The dealer can still do all the diagnostics and reflash the ECU. If they do update the firmware, the above single edit must be made to the new firmware before the programmer will work again.

MB simulates an EEProm in the flash and thus the flash has a very high endurance cycle life. I have one work horse ME97 that has well in excess of a hundred flashes on it and its still going. Put simply, I do not think there are any concerns for re-flash cycle life.

lolachampcar

Nothing super secret here...

The basic reflashing and logging code are unchanged. I've just changed the way you get information on and off the programmer and now need to test that all is working well and that the end user (the tester in this case) finds the process intuitively obvious. In exchange, I am willing to provide free hardware and support services for moving existing tunes that you may have purchased onto the programmer and working with your tuner of choice so you can try different tunes. The only thing I do not want to do is step on any tuner's toes

My primary concern is getting the data logging part all sorted so it is a seamless process for the end user.

Regretfully, I need to be with the car to test the logging part and thus would like to find someone in South Florida.

I responded to the crack open the ecu part in the post above but, yes, you still need to open it once. Sorry.. I've not given up on addressing that but MB/Bosch was very smart in locking tuners out of OBDii reflashing.

lolachampcar

The Mass Storage Class framework is a high level USB interface which allows for all kinds and sizes of storage to be used. Cameras, MP3 Players, Thumb Drive USB sticks and the like all use MSC. I think you will find MSC USB support will remain for the near future as these little USB memory storage devices are getting cheaper and cheaper and thus the numbers are growing. I can not imagine MS, Linux or Mac moving away from generic MSC support.

cyberorth

Thank you for your description.

Question: How do you explain what Brabus has in its B63S kit?
Refer to this: https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...-b63s-kit.html

lolachampcar

I do not want to get sideways with any vendor so please pardon me if my words are chosen carefully.

I am aware of two ways to affect changes to ME97s via the OBDii port. You can either install a full calibration which requires "signed" files as MB/AMG does or you can play with version coding options. I have not investigated the version coding options but have been told timing related changes can be made using this method (to account for differences in fuel throughout the world would be my speculation on this).

I am not aware of anyone doing properly signed files apart from MB or AMG. That does not mean that it is not being done; it only means that I have not heard of or witnessed it being done. I did speak with one tuner who claimed to be able to reflash ME97s without opening the ECU but was ultimately unable to verify those claims. I later was exposed to one of those ECUs (customer asked me to move the tune he purchased onto a programmer) and found that the ECU had been opened. This was only one of many ECUs this tuner did and perhaps it was one he did before he got the ability to reflash via OBDii. I really do not know.

If someone is installing properly signed files it is reasonable to assume they have the ability to sign files or they have acquired “demo”, “press”, “track” or other “special” files generated and signed by MB/AMG.

It is also worth noting that there are two different types of reflash of the ME97, Calibration and Complete Firmware. The calibration update is much smaller while the firmware update requires a follow on calibration update for the new firmware. Any product that does either type of flash and will allow you to “fix” a dealer reflash would need to do one of two things. The first option is for the product to restore the ECU to its own version of Firmware. The second option would be for the device to have a signed calibration file for the new firmware version installed by the dealer. The logistics of that second option are painful as the device would have to have signed calibrations for any version of firmware the dealership might install. Clues as to how any device works can be found in the time it takes to do its stuff. Very quick (ten/fifteen seconds of actual CAN bus traffic) is version coding stuff. Slightly under a minute is a calibration update (at least for me J ) and several minutes of hard pounding on the CAN bus is a complete firmware update.

I have heard of people playing with version coding and top speed is typically one of the targets of that type of approach.

The above are only my opinions and are by no means a complete description of all the options. I have tried to provide information with the above descriptions but have not looked at the product you mentioned and can not comment on what it does nor how it does it. Sorry

cyberorth

Thank you for your kind explanation. I learned a lot reading your posts.

lolachampcar

I got a PM on the logger and thought it best to post some shots of the data display. One of the tasks ahead is to move this application from a proprietary download of the logger to simply opening a disk based file dragged off the programmer/logger file.

MB_Forever

Very interesting thread, I look forward to your updates....

Bijan02

what programs do you use? what kind of tools do you make? this sounds interesting.

lolachampcar

Bijan02

I use WinOLS for working with calibration data, various decompiles for looking at binary code (figuring out security and the like) and a plethora of microcontroller development tools for looking at the hardware itself. The BDM tool used by tuners is simply a standard microcontroller development background debugger interface that allows firmware developers to load programs to the microcontroller (Power PC in the case of the ME97 - its a gas that all the current AMG and MB petrol engines are being controlled by a MAC processor ) and then set break points so you can stop program execution and watch your program bomb (in my case). The tuning packages simply limit the BDM tool to reading and writing the on board and off board flash parts (and sometimes external EEProms). If you make/made your living using these tools to do microcontroller development, it is a simple matter to do the exact same with automotive ECUs.

As far as what I make, I do mostly ECU reprogramming tools and some systems manipulation stuff (suspension lowering modules, MAP/Maf remapping devices, CAN related controllers). I’ve got programmers for the ME97 (most all current petrol AMG) and the ME2.7/2.8 family of ECUs (older V12tt and Kompressor cars). The biggest rub for me is the difference between the US and European tuning models. The Europeans expect you to send your ECU or go to the tuner. US companies sell you a little widget that lets you control what software is on your car. This is particularly useful in cases where the tune may not be EPA compliant for road use or where the manufacturer is clamping down on tuning their cars by voiding power train warranty (BMW is on a tear right now on their turbo cars to reign in warranty cost on hopped up cars). I try to provide inexpensive solutions to tuners so that they can provide their product without people shipping ECUs……

I’ve got to add the normal caveat here; I am not a registered vendor on this forum and I do not sell retail and thus am offering nothing for sale. This thread is simply to provided information to those interested and to try to track down a local 63 for testing the latest iteration of my logging code (the mass storage class stuff) J

Sincity

How did I miss this post????

ZephyrAMG

Have you been couped up at Spearment Rhino?

Seriously though, I am reading this stuff and only understanding 45% of what the hell is going on. Reading lolachamps write ups is sort of like opening a textbook in quantum physics and just reading cold turkey...

I need to read and re-read some sections and break them apart.
Very interesting research, you are truly passionate lolachamp. If we had you and Superlubricity in an underground lab crazy things would be happening. Keep up the hard work, I look forward to seeing your results...