MB_Forever

A general formula (in general) is not very accurate. In this case, the result will also be dependent on many other factors, such as, power distribution for example. A car with a low power output in most of the rpm band and high power in the last 1000 rpms will experience different results than a car with huge power/torque output in the low rpm band and lower power in the high rpm band. The same goes for mid range power setups. Each car will act differently due to many factors: engine, suspension, tune, etc... so you can't really use one formula for all cars and say it is accurate. Furthermore, even if the formula was 100% accurate for every single car out there, one can not say "if I can get down to this number, I would have ran that number". Estimates are good for setting goals but a car is not a 11.5 car until it runs 11.5

Going back to MHP, their latest tune-only car ran multiple 11.6s @ 120 mph with different drivers. Also, their header and tune only car (no light weight carbon fiber stuff and no taking out of seats) ran 11.1 @ 123 I believe. This is still far away from 11.5

Honestly, judging only by actual results and real-world data, MHP owns the 1/4 mile ET, trap speed, 60-130 mph runs, 0-60 runs, etc.... most of their results have been consistent and have been reproduced on different cars, different tracks, different drivers, different states, different countries, etc...

By the way, not all MHP customers are expert track drivers. For most, it's just a hobby. I would guess they only visit the track 3 to 4 times a year (on average).

Speedriven1

Seibon makes them, and they (Seibon) actually make some quality stuff. I think they're Taiwan? In any event, I love the seats, have sold several of the GTR wings, trunks, etc.

RStevens63

If you're guessing/hypothesizing that's one thing, but to say you will based on a generic rule of thumb is another.

Please don't try and tell me what general rules of drag racing are, I could care less what internet experts say, I've been doing it since the day I turned 16. No one statement however generic holds true to every make of car ever made. Sorry, that's just ignorance. Again far too many variables to make a statement like that end of story.

RStevens63

Well since this thread has turned into anything but header pricing:

Congrats dodger on a 10.87@131.46 pass!!!!!

sflgator

Well, if that's true, then you must have heard about this 'general rule of thumb' then, huh? And, no, I'm not only had confirmation of this notion from ppl on the Internet, but actual experienced drag racer "experts" at the track, my friend. And, think about it this way, my 60ft. was 1.9x sec. with my all-season street tires. With a set of drag radials, you don't think I would get my 60ft. down to 1.7x sec. or 1.6x sec. resulting in a significantly quicker ET (say 0.4-0.6sec. shaved off my 12.0 sec. ET for a mid 11-sec. ET) at the end? Come on...seriously? That's not "Internet bench racing" but just common sense and mathematics!

Muskoka_AMG

Guys, it is difficult to argue against a "rule of thumb". Gator is right, if you add traction, you'll go faster. If you hold everything else constant, that should equate to somewhere around .2 for every .1. Will it always hold true? No. Maybe he'll feel this newfound acceleration and wet his pants. Maybe his car will break at the mere sight of drag radials. Maybe he has no idea how to launch a car with drag radials. However, those things are just as likely as him being faster. Hold everything else constant (driver skill, power, weather, etc.) and .2 for every .1 will GENERALLY (hence "rule of thumb") hold true.

Is it possible that it won't hold true? Yes. Is it probable? No.

BTW, I can pee further than all of you.

RStevens63

Yes I've heard that rule and 1000 other bs generalizations. It's not math, it's racing. Any prediction is bench racing, that's what you don't seem to get.

"My car can, could, would, should" is not the same as my car "has done".

Yes time off 60' equates to lower ETs but again there are hundreds of variables as to how much per .1 and your "expert" buddy's formula takes into account none of them. So you're going to tell me that theory holds up in Denver as it does in NJ? In 40F air vs 90F air? Hell no. Those are just two of the hundreds of variables.

So again, just run your car and get it over with. Speculation is a waste of time. You live in FL, your tracks are open, go prove me wrong.

RStevens63

This is why I love the internet. Do you have any idea how much more HP it takes to get the same car to drop .1 going from a 10.5 to a 10.4 vs the HP needed to drop the same .1 going from a 13.0 to a 12.9?

Again, none of this is taken into account using the redneck expert formula of guesswork.

Same rule applies to a FWD turbo car that can't get out of the hole and rapes on the backhalf?

Same rule applies to a 5000lb vs 3500lb vehicle?

How about one with a coefficient of drag of .48 vs .41?

Like I said, forget generalizations and speculation.

Run the damn car then post numbers.

sflgator

All good points. Touche! And thank you for confirming the 'general rule of thumb' on this.

RStevens63

I'm not sure what to say, someone on the internet agreed with you and therefore "confirmed" a rule of thumb?

LOL, I give up, think what you want. Just post the numbers if you ever get to the strip with DRs.

sflgator

Well, I'm VERY HAPPY running 12.0sec. @ 118.8mph (with a best trap > 119mph) on my all-season drag radials...timeslip posted on DragTimes.com.

It backs up my dynos and proves my car has MUCH MORE POWER with the MBH headers and OE ecu flash 'retune' than before. If YOU want more proof, then YOU can buy me a set a drag radials, and I'll be happy to run with DRs and PROVE you wrong. Otherwise, I have no interest in proving anything to anybody.

btw -- where are all YOUR 1/4mi. TIMESLIPS? We've certainly heard all your $0.02 on MBW but have yet to see exactly what YOU'VE done at the track, lol! I would expect with all your drag racing experience (since you were 16 years old), YOU would have more than just words to post up here...don't you run YOUR E63 at the 1/4mi. track sir? Who's the real 'Internet bench racer' here?

"Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

RStevens63

LOL I'm not the one talking out my *** about things that haven't happened. Sorry but I'd rather donate $550 to charity than give it to you, you're driving a 70K car but can't swing them?

Let's be clear, the numbers you do have are terrible and have been beaten by tune only cars. Almost every week you start posting about how fast your car could be if you had DRs. Why do we have to listen to your BS (it's BS because you haven't done it yet constantly yap about it) ? No one cares until you have a slip so please stop talking about what the tooth fairy is going to bring you. Posters like you make forums look bad, all talk, nothing to back it up but subpar numbers.

My E63 is stock and is not a track car. If you knew what I did for a living you would be too embarrassed to post here again. You may live in a glass house but I live in a comparative fort knox.

Keep on benchracing!

sflgator

Yeah, divorce will do that to you, buddy. Priorities change.

First...Oh, so now just b/c YOUR E63 is stock, you won't go to the track to run it..."oh puh-leeeese, give me a break." You drive an $85k E63 AMG w/ > 510HP, so what now...your car is slow and has no business at the 1/4mi. track? You really need to take your OWN ADVICE and GET OUT THERE or shut your trap. Even if you run a drag strip or are a professional car race driver, it still doesn't matter since ALL you do here is instigate and tell people to go out and spend lots of $$ and race without you doing any of that yourself! What REALLY gives these car enthusiast Internet forums a bad name are hypocrites like YOU!

Second...you have NO IDEA where I live and what kind of house I live in; let's just say my ex-wife is the one who was forced to move out while I kept my house and got 50% custody of my 2 kids.

Muskoka_AMG

I'd be willing to bet (probably an insignificant amount of money for most on here) that if you took a completely random sample of T&T cars at a drag strip on any popular day (read 25+ cars), you'd have a bell curve right around this rule of thumb.

RStevens63

I'm truly sorry to hear that. When did the headers/tune go on? If you had $ for those but not tires I'm not sure what to say. You can't tap the potential of a stock car without DRs.

I've always stated my E63 was stock because it is, please direct me to a thread or post in which I said it wasn't.

You need to learn how to read son. I didn't say I've never raced, I have made hundreds of 1/4 mile passes alone in my life, just not in the E63. It's a fat pig and is too slow to bother running. You could race every weekend for 10 years and still not have as many passes as I've already made.

Look genius. I'm not the one running his mouth like a 12 year old about what some "expert" at the track told you regarding a generalization as old as father time. You are, that makes YOU the hypocrite. You did graduate from high school right?

I instigate people to spend lots of $ to race? ROFL. $550 is a lot of $? You have a $70K car but can't afford the tires.

The motor in my last NHRA pro stock bike was $50K alone, that's a 7 second 350HP 1.5L N/A Kawasaki SOHC 2v. Like I said, you have no idea what side goes up.

Not sure what any of this has to do with you running your mouth and not your car?

A: Nothing, just more BS yapping.

Just stop, you're barking up the wrong tree if there ever was one.

Muskoka_AMG

This turned into a glorified pissing contest very quickly.

RStevens63

This thread was derailed after the 4th or 5th post.

Anyway thank gator and his amazing predictions.

sflgator

1. I'm not saying you're lying about your E63 AMG being stock; just saying that you could run it at the track that's all.
2. I'm certainly not your son unless you're also 86 years old like my dad is as I'm 41 brotha.
3. Yes, $550 is A LOT of $$ imho for me to spend on tires I might use but once a year, but thanks for bragging that it isn't for you (and bragging about your $50k motorcycle engine)...too bad you didn't take a dump on it while driving 175mph! ).

Unless you've been through a recent divorce, you have NO IDEA what I'm talking about. btw - my headers went on before > $100k went out (to my ex-wife and my attorneys). Uggh!

Again, another reason why it's people like YOU that give Internet car forums a bad name.

Muskoka_AMG

Really?

hmmm... these forums really are no better than srtforums and iwsti.

The guy disagrees with hypothesizing 1/4mile times. He didn't rape and kill your first born child.

MB_Forever

Nobody is "arguing against a rule of thumb" here.... what we were trying to point out was that predictions of final numbers are not too accurate because other factors are involved. One can not easily say drag radials will cut 0.3 seconds off my 60' time, therefore I will gain x amount in the 1/4 mile. To give you an example, I've seen an E63 run 1.9x on stock radials, then at the same track (same day), the owner switched to drag radials and still ran 1.9x 60' time and even a couple of 2.0. I'm guessing the torque limiter on the 7g tranny stepped in and started pulling power when it sensed all the torque during the improved traction. In this case, the rule "drag radials will improve my 60' time by x amount" failed. In summary, one can not claim they have an 11.5 second car without running an 11.5

Unless the actual times are ran, one can not claim those times. I do, however, think sflgator could hit 11.6 or 11.5 with the right conditions just as PetroC63 did with similar mods. However, it is still a bit far from MHP's car with 11.1 @ 125+ mph

MB_Forever

Why can't members on here (FOR ONCE) have a disagreement without insults?

sflgator

True, but he just keeps going and going and going...like God forbid anyone disagrees with him, then we're just "Internet bench racers" talking b.s. yet he doesn't even run his own car. And who's to say that everything he says is true and accurate? I can't stand when ppl say things like "well, you drive a $70k car and can't afford xxx...who the f does he think he is to tell anyone what they should be able to afford, what things in life are the financial priorities, brags about how much $$ he spent on an engine or whatever, and then demands that we prove things to HIM? Geez...what an awful God complex and moral character!

Jons95c36amg

Well I learned my lesson-dont predict what your going to run. Or you will be disappointed.

MB_Forever

Best statement said yet in this thread Jon

RStevens63

Then take figuratively, there's a lot you have yet to learn about drag racing. I have race cars and bikes I race at tracks, the E is just too heavy to even think about especially stock.

Well remember you can probably use them for 2 to 2.5 years if you keep them in good condition. I also beg to differ about "bragging" you asked, I answered, that's not bragging, that's me answering your question.

You talking about the size of your house without prior mention of it by anyone is "bragging".

Nice of you to say too bad I didn't die while racing. At least I would've gone doing what I love and know. Classy.

Even though you've chosen to go down that road (about me dying) I still feel bad for you and anyone that's been through a divorce. $100k is a lot to some, but to others on here is a drop in the bucket. Notice I didn't say which crowd I was in so it can't be "bragging".

I really don't understand how you can fail to see that it's your baseless predictions and generalizations that have brought this thread to where it is now. You talk talk talk and are what, 35th on the dragtimes list you bragged about?

Why don't you PM me your phone number so we can have a civilized discussion during the first 10 seconds of which you will know (if you follow racing) exactly how much I know. I was the lead builder at Cope Racing engines for years (builder of those $50K a pop bike motors), if you live in FL you should know that name. I could go on, but I don't feel like bragging.