Is stock P31 actually 500+hp?
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Joined: Dec 2010
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From: Calgary, AB
2014 E63 S
Is stock P31 actually 500+hp?
Been seeing a lot of threads regarding tunes and wicked times at the dragstrip.
A couple people have commented that the P31 actually has more than the advertised 481 hp... that it's closer to the #s on the E63 or S63.
Is this true? Any way to know for sure? I'd love to tell my M3 driving buddy that I have 100hp more than him.
A couple people have commented that the P31 actually has more than the advertised 481 hp... that it's closer to the #s on the E63 or S63.
Is this true? Any way to know for sure? I'd love to tell my M3 driving buddy that I have 100hp more than him.
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From: Westmont, IL
2014 C63 Sedan
Been seeing a lot of threads regarding tunes and wicked times at the dragstrip.
A couple people have commented that the P31 actually has more than the advertised 481 hp... that it's closer to the #s on the E63 or S63.
Is this true? Any way to know for sure? I'd love to tell my M3 driving buddy that I have 100hp more than him.
A couple people have commented that the P31 actually has more than the advertised 481 hp... that it's closer to the #s on the E63 or S63.
Is this true? Any way to know for sure? I'd love to tell my M3 driving buddy that I have 100hp more than him.
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From: NY
See Sig
Hand assembled yes, not hand machined. You can bet if one P31 is more than 481 all of them are with very small variations in HP up or down between them.
From what we have seen it seems that way though. They stay pretty close to a tuned C63.
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'11 C63 w/ P31
they seem to dyno around 420whp on a dyno jet so that would suggest so.
this would be at 15%, 18%, 20% and 25% drivetrain loss.
420x1.15= 483
420x1.18=495
420x1.20=504
420x1.25=525
I also raced an OE tuned C63 with my stock P31 and we were dead even.
My 60-130 time is faster than anyone has ran over here on the West Coast tune only, and 0.05 seconds slower than Jon ran in his OE tune only car on the East Coast, and well Propain just raped everybody with his 9.41, also on the east coast.
this would be at 15%, 18%, 20% and 25% drivetrain loss.
420x1.15= 483
420x1.18=495
420x1.20=504
420x1.25=525
I also raced an OE tuned C63 with my stock P31 and we were dead even.
My 60-130 time is faster than anyone has ran over here on the West Coast tune only, and 0.05 seconds slower than Jon ran in his OE tune only car on the East Coast, and well Propain just raped everybody with his 9.41, also on the east coast.
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From: Northport N.Y.
2013 f250 6.7 diesel
Wait jon still has the fastest c63 ever to be produced and its not a p31
they seem to dyno around 420whp on a dyno jet so that would suggest so.
this would be at 15%, 18%, 20% and 25% drivetrain loss.
420x1.15= 483
420x1.18=495
420x1.20=504
420x1.25=525
I also raced an OE tuned C63 with my stock P31 and we were dead even.
My 60-130 time is faster than anyone has ran over here on the West Coast tune only, and 0.05 seconds slower than Jon ran in his OE tune only car on the East Coast, and well Propain just raped everybody with his 9.41, also on the east coast.
this would be at 15%, 18%, 20% and 25% drivetrain loss.
420x1.15= 483
420x1.18=495
420x1.20=504
420x1.25=525
I also raced an OE tuned C63 with my stock P31 and we were dead even.
My 60-130 time is faster than anyone has ran over here on the West Coast tune only, and 0.05 seconds slower than Jon ran in his OE tune only car on the East Coast, and well Propain just raped everybody with his 9.41, also on the east coast.
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
they seem to dyno around 420whp on a dyno jet so that would suggest so.
this would be at 15%, 18%, 20% and 25% drivetrain loss.
420x1.15= 483
420x1.18=495
420x1.20=504
420x1.25=525
I also raced an OE tuned C63 with my stock P31 and we were dead even.
My 60-130 time is faster than anyone has ran over here on the West Coast tune only, and 0.05 seconds slower than Jon ran in his OE tune only car on the East Coast, and well Propain just raped everybody with his 9.41, also on the east coast.
this would be at 15%, 18%, 20% and 25% drivetrain loss.
420x1.15= 483
420x1.18=495
420x1.20=504
420x1.25=525
I also raced an OE tuned C63 with my stock P31 and we were dead even.
My 60-130 time is faster than anyone has ran over here on the West Coast tune only, and 0.05 seconds slower than Jon ran in his OE tune only car on the East Coast, and well Propain just raped everybody with his 9.41, also on the east coast.
It is very hard to judge by dyno because they can be all over the place. I've seen E63s dyno from 380 whp to 435 whp
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'11 C63 w/ P31
The unofficial agreed upon number for the drivetrain loss (for AMG vehicles) is 18%. So it is safe to say the car produces at least 490 hp. However, I have seen a couple of them dyno at 401 whp on a dyno jet.
It is very hard to judge by dyno because they can be all over the place. I've seen E63s dyno from 380 whp to 435 whp
It is very hard to judge by dyno because they can be all over the place. I've seen E63s dyno from 380 whp to 435 whp
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Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
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GT2 C63 and yo sister
at Porsche they told me all engines meet advertised hp rating, they told me that German law is that it must be within 10% and every engine they produce if it is under they dont pass it and anything over 10% has to be taken apart too, but 10% of 481 is 48hp
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Joined: Jul 2009
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From: Los Angeles
C63
The P31 is rated at 485hp, there are some freak motors out there that will do 500 I think.
Ok, I came up with a formula for my personal results.
Baseline dyno for my car was 356HP with 2ndary cat delete on Dyno Dynamics. Advertised crank HP rating for the C63 is 451HP.
356hp x 1.267 = 451hp (crank)
Currently im at 418HP with OE Tune + MBH X pipe.
418HP x 1.267 = 529HP (crank)
I dont know how accurate this is but I figure its pretty close enough.
Ok, I came up with a formula for my personal results.
Baseline dyno for my car was 356HP with 2ndary cat delete on Dyno Dynamics. Advertised crank HP rating for the C63 is 451HP.
356hp x 1.267 = 451hp (crank)
Currently im at 418HP with OE Tune + MBH X pipe.
418HP x 1.267 = 529HP (crank)
I dont know how accurate this is but I figure its pretty close enough.
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From: NY
See Sig
they seem to dyno around 420whp on a dyno jet so that would suggest so.
this would be at 15%, 18%, 20% and 25% drivetrain loss.
420x1.15= 483
420x1.18=495
420x1.20=504
420x1.25=525
I also raced an OE tuned C63 with my stock P31 and we were dead even.
My 60-130 time is faster than anyone has ran over here on the West Coast tune only, and 0.05 seconds slower than Jon ran in his OE tune only car on the East Coast, and well Propain just raped everybody with his 9.41, also on the east coast.
this would be at 15%, 18%, 20% and 25% drivetrain loss.
420x1.15= 483
420x1.18=495
420x1.20=504
420x1.25=525
I also raced an OE tuned C63 with my stock P31 and we were dead even.
My 60-130 time is faster than anyone has ran over here on the West Coast tune only, and 0.05 seconds slower than Jon ran in his OE tune only car on the East Coast, and well Propain just raped everybody with his 9.41, also on the east coast.
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 39
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CLS55, S550
Drive train loss
If an engine is ratted at 500 hp at the crankshaft and the car has a 20% loss because of drive train loss than you would expect to see 400 hp on the dyno at the wheels and that would mean you take the 400 and use 1.25 (20%) and that gets you back to 500 hp.
1.25 is for 20% loss
1.25 is for 20% loss
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02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
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From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
C63, SL55, E55, CLS55, ML63, C55
First things first, There should be no agreed upon driveline loss number. A dyno operator should know from experience what his machine gets for parasitic power loss. Each dyno machine and the setting used bla bla bla, have to be factored in.
For a lot of people who own a CLS55 would know the rated number at the crank is 469. Those who have been any type of dyno would know the CLS 55 puts out about 500hp. With that said It would not surprise me that the P31 C63 puts out 500hp. Granted you get some SLS goodies in a P31 C63, but they bump the power up with a simple software remapping. In fact It might cost Mercedes more money to develop a new tune that makes more power than the C63 and less than an E63.
IMO, They run a full size 63 file in the new P31 C63. They just dont market it to the public that way. Why? Because they do not want to devalue their product. I mean you can have a $60K C63 making the same power as a $125 SL63. At least you don't market it that way.
Remember they need to sell SL63's, S63 and what not to the guy who has the loot and wants the baddest of the bad. Also, the C63 guys with a p31 package, will never complain about to much power. So by simply stating the p31 C63 has slightly less power than an E63 or SL63 is just how Mercedes words it on paper to keep everything in order. With the old saying, You spend more you expect more.
For a lot of people who own a CLS55 would know the rated number at the crank is 469. Those who have been any type of dyno would know the CLS 55 puts out about 500hp. With that said It would not surprise me that the P31 C63 puts out 500hp. Granted you get some SLS goodies in a P31 C63, but they bump the power up with a simple software remapping. In fact It might cost Mercedes more money to develop a new tune that makes more power than the C63 and less than an E63.
IMO, They run a full size 63 file in the new P31 C63. They just dont market it to the public that way. Why? Because they do not want to devalue their product. I mean you can have a $60K C63 making the same power as a $125 SL63. At least you don't market it that way.
Remember they need to sell SL63's, S63 and what not to the guy who has the loot and wants the baddest of the bad. Also, the C63 guys with a p31 package, will never complain about to much power. So by simply stating the p31 C63 has slightly less power than an E63 or SL63 is just how Mercedes words it on paper to keep everything in order. With the old saying, You spend more you expect more.
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From: Philadelphia, PA
2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
If: bhp x (1 minus driveline percentage loss) = whp
Then: whp / (1 minus driveline percentage loss) = bhp... not "whp x 1 plus driveline percentage loss = bhp"
So,
420/.85=494
420/.82=512
420/.80=525
420/.75=560
FWIW, 18-20% are the most commonly accepted driveline loss estimates I've seen suggested for running an AMG on a DynoJet. YMMV.
A car mag (Modified, perhaps? Don't recall) ran an interesting tech article awhile back about how driveline losses aren't a fixed percentage anyway, and to truly know the bhp of your modified engine, you'd really have to put it on an engine dyno. So these estimates aren't really worth much other than bragging rights among each other. But fun nonetheless
Last edited by c32AMG-DTM; Apr 5, 2011 at 07:19 AM.
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From: NY
See Sig
First things first, There should be no agreed upon driveline loss number. A dyno operator should know from experience what his machine gets for parasitic power loss. Each dyno machine and the setting used bla bla bla, have to be factored in.
For a lot of people who own a CLS55 would know the rated number at the crank is 469. Those who have been any type of dyno would know the CLS 55 puts out about 500hp. With that said It would not surprise me that the P31 C63 puts out 500hp. Granted you get some SLS goodies in a P31 C63, but they bump the power up with a simple software remapping. In fact It might cost Mercedes more money to develop a new tune that makes more power than the C63 and less than an E63.
IMO, They run a full size 63 file in the new P31 C63. They just dont market it to the public that way. Why? Because they do not want to devalue their product. I mean you can have a $60K C63 making the same power as a $125 SL63. At least you don't market it that way.
Remember they need to sell SL63's, S63 and what not to the guy who has the loot and wants the baddest of the bad. Also, the C63 guys with a p31 package, will never complain about to much power. So by simply stating the p31 C63 has slightly less power than an E63 or SL63 is just how Mercedes words it on paper to keep everything in order. With the old saying, You spend more you expect more.
For a lot of people who own a CLS55 would know the rated number at the crank is 469. Those who have been any type of dyno would know the CLS 55 puts out about 500hp. With that said It would not surprise me that the P31 C63 puts out 500hp. Granted you get some SLS goodies in a P31 C63, but they bump the power up with a simple software remapping. In fact It might cost Mercedes more money to develop a new tune that makes more power than the C63 and less than an E63.
IMO, They run a full size 63 file in the new P31 C63. They just dont market it to the public that way. Why? Because they do not want to devalue their product. I mean you can have a $60K C63 making the same power as a $125 SL63. At least you don't market it that way.
Remember they need to sell SL63's, S63 and what not to the guy who has the loot and wants the baddest of the bad. Also, the C63 guys with a p31 package, will never complain about to much power. So by simply stating the p31 C63 has slightly less power than an E63 or SL63 is just how Mercedes words it on paper to keep everything in order. With the old saying, You spend more you expect more.
What is your opinion on Mercedes putting up 36XX pounds as the curb weight of the C63 on their site and in their manuals?
I am sick of debating with rilval cars that the C63 is really 39XX without the driver and the rival cars always say "Well then why does MB say its 36XX"
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2011 P31 C63 2015 CLA45
What is your opinion on Mercedes putting up 36XX pounds as the curb weight of the C63 on their site and in their manuals?
I am sick of debating with rilval cars that the C63 is really 39XX without the driver and the rival cars always say "Well then why does MB say its 36XX"
I am sick of debating with rilval cars that the C63 is really 39XX without the driver and the rival cars always say "Well then why does MB say its 36XX"
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From: Philadelphia, PA
2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
Both incorrect.
If one assumes that there's an 18% driveline loss estimate, it means that 82% of the horsepower/torque generated at the crank makes it to the rear wheels. Dividing by 1.18 is not a correct formula to apply when estimating an 18% loss from the original value.
I'll prove it to you. Switch to something easier to understand... dollars. Joe has 500 dollars to invest. He loses 18% of his original investment. That means he lost 90 dollars. So he should have 410 left. Using your formula, 500/1.18 = 423.73. Obviously incorrect. 500 x (1-.18) = 410. See the difference?
If Y is the percentage-loss-estimate expressed as a decimal, the algebraic formula is
BHP x (1-Y) = WHP, or WHP/(1-Y) = BHP
@ 18% estimated loss, BHP x .82 = WHP, or WHP/.82 = BHP.
If one assumes that there's an 18% driveline loss estimate, it means that 82% of the horsepower/torque generated at the crank makes it to the rear wheels. Dividing by 1.18 is not a correct formula to apply when estimating an 18% loss from the original value.
I'll prove it to you.
Switch to something easier to understand... dollars. Joe has 500 dollars to invest. He loses 18% of his original investment. That means he lost 90 dollars. So he should have 410 left. Using your formula, 500/1.18 = 423.73. Obviously incorrect. 500 x (1-.18) = 410. See the difference? If Y is the percentage-loss-estimate expressed as a decimal, the algebraic formula is
BHP x (1-Y) = WHP, or WHP/(1-Y) = BHP
@ 18% estimated loss, BHP x .82 = WHP, or WHP/.82 = BHP.
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From: Texas
2011 P31 C63 2015 CLA45
Thanks for clarifying. Let me go to my corner and contemplate my failure.
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From: Calgary, AB
2014 E63 S
First things first, There should be no Granted you get some SLS goodies in a P31 C63, but they bump the power up with a simple software remapping. In fact It might cost Mercedes more money to develop a new tune that makes more power than the C63 and less than an E63.
IMO, They run a full size 63 file in the new P31 C63. They just dont market it to the public that way. Why? Because they do not want to devalue their product. I mean you can have a $60K C63 making the same power as a $125 SL63. At least you don't market it that way.
Remember they need to sell SL63's, S63 and what not to the guy who has the loot and wants the baddest of the bad. Also, the C63 guys with a p31 package, will never complain about to much power. So by simply stating the p31 C63 has slightly less power than an E63 or SL63 is just how Mercedes words it on paper to keep everything in order. With the old saying, You spend more you expect more.
IMO, They run a full size 63 file in the new P31 C63. They just dont market it to the public that way. Why? Because they do not want to devalue their product. I mean you can have a $60K C63 making the same power as a $125 SL63. At least you don't market it that way.
Remember they need to sell SL63's, S63 and what not to the guy who has the loot and wants the baddest of the bad. Also, the C63 guys with a p31 package, will never complain about to much power. So by simply stating the p31 C63 has slightly less power than an E63 or SL63 is just how Mercedes words it on paper to keep everything in order. With the old saying, You spend more you expect more.
But to know for sure...Is it not as simple as looking at a bunch of different 'baseline' numbers? put 2-3 'normal' C63s on the dyno then do the same with some P31 cars and check to see if there is more than a 30hp difference on average?
Surely the shops offering aftermarket goodies for the C63 would have baseline data for the two types of cars before they add modifications?
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From: Philadelphia, PA
2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
I definitely see the logic in this post which is why I think it's likely the P31 motor has all that power. Why would MB spend more to give less? Easier to just put a lower number on the spec sheet.
But to know for sure...Is it not as simple as looking at a bunch of different 'baseline' numbers? put 2-3 'normal' C63s on the dyno then do the same with some P31 cars and check to see if there is more than a 30hp difference on average?
Surely the shops offering aftermarket goodies for the C63 would have baseline data for the two types of cars before they add modifications?
But to know for sure...Is it not as simple as looking at a bunch of different 'baseline' numbers? put 2-3 'normal' C63s on the dyno then do the same with some P31 cars and check to see if there is more than a 30hp difference on average?
Surely the shops offering aftermarket goodies for the C63 would have baseline data for the two types of cars before they add modifications?
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2012 C63;1971 280SE 3.5(Sold);2023 EQS 450 SUV 4 Matic (Wife's)
What is your opinion on Mercedes putting up 36XX pounds as the curb weight of the C63 on their site and in their manuals?
I am sick of debating with rilval cars that the C63 is really 39XX without the driver and the rival cars always say "Well then why does MB say its 36XX"
I am sick of debating with rilval cars that the C63 is really 39XX without the driver and the rival cars always say "Well then why does MB say its 36XX"
MBUSA AMG site: Curb Weight = 3924 lbs.
Canadian 2010 C-Class brochure = 3916 lbs.
GVWR on B pillar of my car = 4862 lbs. (2210 kG) Less Max Load 847 lbs (385 kG) = 4015 lbs.
I am not sure where MB says the curb weight is 36xx lbs. but that is not what the above sources indicate. Perhaps that is the dry weight of the car without fluids.
Last edited by Mort; Apr 5, 2011 at 07:49 PM.
