Used C63 - Should I walk away from the deal? Headbolt Issues?
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
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2008 M3
Used C63 - Should I walk away from the deal? Headbolt Issues?
Hi all,
I made a deal on a 2010 C63 last week. It is being purchased under the Star Certified program in Toronto Canada. Regular factory warranty runs out in October of 2013. I asked the dealer to do some specific things before delivery... and now it seems like there is another snag where they had to remove the engine from the car!
Here is what is listed on the service work order form. Please let me know if my requests from the dealer are unreasonable.
1. Car has received "FSS Service - Major Maintenance". Car has 52,000KM's on the odometer. It says "Automatic Transmission Fluid & Filter Replacement" - Need Authorization - Customer Declined.
- When should the transmission fluid & filter replacement be done? I thought it was 50,000km. Seems odd that they are not doing it before delivering the car to me.
2. "Brake Pads 6-7mm, Rear Brake Pads 6mm"
- Should I have the dealer replace the pads? Not sure how many mm's the pads are new.
3. Now here are the kickers - "RL Check Coolant Level Low. Also found thermostat leaking 201010 cooling and heater system for leaks using pressure tester check - Coolant thermostat remove / install and if necessary replace as per used car manager"
- ????
4. "Sub MB Recon PO-STSV89155 - PARTS - RE/RE All Under Engine Panels, Drain Cooling System and re/re Engine thermostat and check, found leak from inspection hole at front cover with boroscope, as per foreman re/re engine ... create case ticket, in progress, prepare engine on skid for transport to machine shop as per foreman and manager"
"notice oil leak on ground - oil pan, lower section remove/install - seal"
"sensors, sealant, seal, oil level sensor seal replace"
"re/re lower oil pan ...re/re oil level switch and replace seal for switch-deformed seal..."
- They have removed the engine from the car as they said they found a small leak. It sounds to me like the leak is related to both oil and coolant (since the coolant was low). Is this a headbolt issue? The car is a 2010 but put into service in 2009, so I am assuming it is one of the vehicles affected by the headbolt issue, and with the low coolant, may be one that is ready to blow.
I have emailed the used car manager the below. Am I out of line here? I don't want to buy a problem car, and quite frankly, I can find other cars that haven't had their engines pulled for the same price!
"Hi,
Please see the attached image which references the coolant leaking/headbolt
issue TSB. M156 engines up to engine # 569xx 60 060658 are affected.
The TSB is on Star TekInfo. The headbolt issue starts with coolant
leaking, which is what I understand is one of the issues with this car as
per the work order form sent to me. Quite a few C63 engines are failing
because of this issue. Here is the link consolidating all that information
as discussed:
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...-concerns.html
I'm assuming that since the engine is already out that the headbolts will
be replaced with the new headbolts as per the TSB - but in the off chance
that this is not the case, would you kindly make sure this is taken care of
as per the TSB.
Although I love the car and the service from the salesman has been excellent, if the headbolt issue isn't corrected I'm going to walk away from the vehicle
and move to have my deposit returned. There is just too much risk taking
delivery of this car and having it fail two years from today and out of
warranty for something that can be prevented.
If you need to contact me my number is XXXX.
Best regards and thanks in advance"
Am I out of line here? Am I just being overly cautious?
Thanks all!
I made a deal on a 2010 C63 last week. It is being purchased under the Star Certified program in Toronto Canada. Regular factory warranty runs out in October of 2013. I asked the dealer to do some specific things before delivery... and now it seems like there is another snag where they had to remove the engine from the car!
Here is what is listed on the service work order form. Please let me know if my requests from the dealer are unreasonable.
1. Car has received "FSS Service - Major Maintenance". Car has 52,000KM's on the odometer. It says "Automatic Transmission Fluid & Filter Replacement" - Need Authorization - Customer Declined.
- When should the transmission fluid & filter replacement be done? I thought it was 50,000km. Seems odd that they are not doing it before delivering the car to me.
2. "Brake Pads 6-7mm, Rear Brake Pads 6mm"
- Should I have the dealer replace the pads? Not sure how many mm's the pads are new.
3. Now here are the kickers - "RL Check Coolant Level Low. Also found thermostat leaking 201010 cooling and heater system for leaks using pressure tester check - Coolant thermostat remove / install and if necessary replace as per used car manager"
- ????
4. "Sub MB Recon PO-STSV89155 - PARTS - RE/RE All Under Engine Panels, Drain Cooling System and re/re Engine thermostat and check, found leak from inspection hole at front cover with boroscope, as per foreman re/re engine ... create case ticket, in progress, prepare engine on skid for transport to machine shop as per foreman and manager"
"notice oil leak on ground - oil pan, lower section remove/install - seal"
"sensors, sealant, seal, oil level sensor seal replace"
"re/re lower oil pan ...re/re oil level switch and replace seal for switch-deformed seal..."
- They have removed the engine from the car as they said they found a small leak. It sounds to me like the leak is related to both oil and coolant (since the coolant was low). Is this a headbolt issue? The car is a 2010 but put into service in 2009, so I am assuming it is one of the vehicles affected by the headbolt issue, and with the low coolant, may be one that is ready to blow.
I have emailed the used car manager the below. Am I out of line here? I don't want to buy a problem car, and quite frankly, I can find other cars that haven't had their engines pulled for the same price!
"Hi,
Please see the attached image which references the coolant leaking/headbolt
issue TSB. M156 engines up to engine # 569xx 60 060658 are affected.
The TSB is on Star TekInfo. The headbolt issue starts with coolant
leaking, which is what I understand is one of the issues with this car as
per the work order form sent to me. Quite a few C63 engines are failing
because of this issue. Here is the link consolidating all that information
as discussed:
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...-concerns.html
I'm assuming that since the engine is already out that the headbolts will
be replaced with the new headbolts as per the TSB - but in the off chance
that this is not the case, would you kindly make sure this is taken care of
as per the TSB.
Although I love the car and the service from the salesman has been excellent, if the headbolt issue isn't corrected I'm going to walk away from the vehicle
and move to have my deposit returned. There is just too much risk taking
delivery of this car and having it fail two years from today and out of
warranty for something that can be prevented.
If you need to contact me my number is XXXX.
Best regards and thanks in advance"
Am I out of line here? Am I just being overly cautious?
Thanks all!
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,621
Likes: 55
From: Naperville, IL/Chicago
2008 CLK63 Black Series 2012 C63 Black Series 2014 SLS Black Series
Don't walk away from the deal........RUN!!!
A few tot many red flags for my liking. The only possible way I would stick with the deal is if for one you are gettting an outstanding deal and two they throw in a MB extended warranty or good aftermarket warranty that would cover you for at least two years. The current warranty that expires in October is OK but October is only about 8 months away.
A few tot many red flags for my liking. The only possible way I would stick with the deal is if for one you are gettting an outstanding deal and two they throw in a MB extended warranty or good aftermarket warranty that would cover you for at least two years. The current warranty that expires in October is OK but October is only about 8 months away.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
2008 M3
Don't walk away from the deal........RUN!!!
A few tot many red flags for my liking. The only possible way I would stick with the deal is if for one you are gettting an outstanding deal and two they throw in a MB extended warranty or good aftermarket warranty that would cover you for at least two years. The current warranty that expires in October is OK but October is only about 8 months away.
A few tot many red flags for my liking. The only possible way I would stick with the deal is if for one you are gettting an outstanding deal and two they throw in a MB extended warranty or good aftermarket warranty that would cover you for at least two years. The current warranty that expires in October is OK but October is only about 8 months away.
My thinking is if they replace the headbolts ... I'm getting a good deal on a car that has been "corrected" ... anything pre-2011 I'm going to be worrying about the headbolt issue.
That being said, if this is an obvious lemon ... well ... I may just have to run.
Any other comments are appreciated - especially from the gearheads that understand what the service they are performing on the engine actually means. Anytime I hear that the engine "had to be pulled", it gives me the chills.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,621
Likes: 55
From: Naperville, IL/Chicago
2008 CLK63 Black Series 2012 C63 Black Series 2014 SLS Black Series
I think it is a pretty good deal - not great, but good. I'm torn because I love the car. It has a star certified warranty until October of 2015. They wanted almost $4,000 to upgrade the SCW warranty to ELW, so I took a pass. The star warranty covers major engine components. I do plan on keeping this car for at least 6 years.
My thinking is if they replace the headbolts ... I'm getting a good deal on a car that has been "corrected" ... anything pre-2011 I'm going to be worrying about the headbolt issue.
That being said, if this is an obvious lemon ... well ... I may just have to run.
Any other comments are appreciated - especially from the gearheads that understand what the service they are performing on the engine actually means. Anytime I hear that the engine "had to be pulled", it gives me the chills.
My thinking is if they replace the headbolts ... I'm getting a good deal on a car that has been "corrected" ... anything pre-2011 I'm going to be worrying about the headbolt issue.
That being said, if this is an obvious lemon ... well ... I may just have to run.
Any other comments are appreciated - especially from the gearheads that understand what the service they are performing on the engine actually means. Anytime I hear that the engine "had to be pulled", it gives me the chills.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
2008 M3
Does the warranty expire in 2013 or 2015, the way I read your first post is that it expires in October of 2013. If it expires in 2015 then you are probably safe. If you don't think it's a GREAT deal go back in and renegotiate. Tell them you are backing out, I bet they drop their pants for you.
Engine: Engine block, cylinder head(s). all internally lubricated parts,
intake and exhaust manifolds, timing chain cover, flywheel, flex plate.
harmonic balancer, belt tensioners, seals and gaskets, supercharger,
hydraulic engine mounts and turbocharger, coolant pump.
I have to assume the head bolt issue would be covered by that.
Agreed on the further negotiation. Planning on having them toss something in...
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,462
Likes: 54
FF. W212 E63 M156 non-pano 18" P2 ParkT NightV (gone but will be missed).
Unless the headbolts and known premature engine wear parts are replaced, you might want to re-consider keeping the car that long unless you have warranty to back any engine failure.
i want to get an e-wagon but have to get rid of this one first.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,515
Likes: 17
From: Toronto
2016 C63 S
The factory bumper to bumper warranty expires in 2013. The star certified warranty (because it is a used car on a mercedes lot) adds an additional 2 years and up to 120,000KM. I do want to keep this car for at least 6 years (e.g, until the w206 c63 is out - or whatever it will be called then). I've attached the warranty coverage of the star certified warranty. Of note:
Engine: Engine block, cylinder head(s). all internally lubricated parts,
intake and exhaust manifolds, timing chain cover, flywheel, flex plate.
harmonic balancer, belt tensioners, seals and gaskets, supercharger,
hydraulic engine mounts and turbocharger, coolant pump.
I have to assume the head bolt issue would be covered by that.
Agreed on the further negotiation. Planning on having them toss something in...
Engine: Engine block, cylinder head(s). all internally lubricated parts,
intake and exhaust manifolds, timing chain cover, flywheel, flex plate.
harmonic balancer, belt tensioners, seals and gaskets, supercharger,
hydraulic engine mounts and turbocharger, coolant pump.
I have to assume the head bolt issue would be covered by that.
Agreed on the further negotiation. Planning on having them toss something in...
This car is totally not worth the headache. The are some awesome deals in Toronto for C63's right now and coming. If it were me, and i planned on keeping the car, i would prefer to get a car that was trouble free and did not have so many issues. I appreciate the diligence that the dealer is going through, but that is the process to ensure the car meets their CPO standards.
Just a heads up....alot of lease returns flood the market from Feb to May, as alot of guys pick up there cars in the springtime, so there will be more CPO's to choose from.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 296
Likes: 0
From: OC, CA
2010 E63
I agree with above. I would pass on this deal unless it was really AMAZING and you have at least another two years on the warranty left. That being said...even if you have the warranty...you are going into this deal KNOWING that the car already has issues that you will need to address.
Do you really want to get into a car that is going to need an unknown amount of time in the shop? Keep hunting...you can find something better for your money...cash is king.
Do you really want to get into a car that is going to need an unknown amount of time in the shop? Keep hunting...you can find something better for your money...cash is king.
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,165
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C63 AMG P30 *EuroCharged*| Porsche Cayenne | Buell XB9SX
correct me if i am wrong, but from the list that you posted, it doesn't sound like any of the leaks are coming from the head gasket or from the head bolt area, so i'm not so sure that there is any evidence of a head bolt issue. if the car was sitting for a long time in extreme weather conditions, then obviously seals and gaskets can go bad.
what is it about this particular specimen that you are in love with? personally, i wouldn't be overly alarmed by the problems as long as they are fixed and i have a warranty. of course, if you can find another like it without the problems, then go for it. but still that's no guarantee that that model won't/doesn't have issues either, whether documented or not.
what is it about this particular specimen that you are in love with? personally, i wouldn't be overly alarmed by the problems as long as they are fixed and i have a warranty. of course, if you can find another like it without the problems, then go for it. but still that's no guarantee that that model won't/doesn't have issues either, whether documented or not.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 288
Likes: 2
From: Brisbane, Australia
RR Evoque Dynamic, Benz Valente (work hack)
Trans oil gets replaced every 60,000 kms or 39,000 miles, so it still within spec.
Wouldn't have a 'great' feeling about the motor being pulled from the car.
Would have to be a great deal $$ wise
Wouldn't have a 'great' feeling about the motor being pulled from the car.
Would have to be a great deal $$ wise
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
09 C63, 11 Cayenne S
If the price is right I would go for it. Most things that are listed are things that generally go on a vehicle or need to be serviced. Just because the engine has been out of the vehicle doesn't mean the car is a lemon. For example...I bought a 2009 cpo car. I didn't know about the head bolt issue until I joined these forums. Low and behold my engine actually hydro locked and everything i read here happened to me but everything was covered under the warranty. 21k worth of parts and labor.
My car runs like a champ after all the fixing. It was like I got a brand new engine.
Most dealers know about the head bolt problem and if they don't, its a bold faced lie. Sounds like the dealer had an issue with the car about cooling problem before and is actually doing the head bolts before anything happens to the engine.
Now keep in mind that this could be a great leverage point when negotiating the deal. With warranty until 2015, I don't see a problem. But in the end, its your decision and if the deal don't sit right with you don't do it. You can always wait until spring when the deals on these cars get hot and heavy and you can choose a c63 that is outside of the known effected engine numbers.
My car runs like a champ after all the fixing. It was like I got a brand new engine.
Most dealers know about the head bolt problem and if they don't, its a bold faced lie. Sounds like the dealer had an issue with the car about cooling problem before and is actually doing the head bolts before anything happens to the engine.
Now keep in mind that this could be a great leverage point when negotiating the deal. With warranty until 2015, I don't see a problem. But in the end, its your decision and if the deal don't sit right with you don't do it. You can always wait until spring when the deals on these cars get hot and heavy and you can choose a c63 that is outside of the known effected engine numbers.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
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2008 M3
I had them replace the drivers seat cover - they wouldn't budge on the passenger. I think my plan of attack is to have the passenger seat cover also replaced and $1000 off. If that doesn't work I will get my deposit back and move on. It looks like more engines are hydrolocking than not.
The price is $46k CDN and change on a 2010 with 50,000KMS. I figured it was a good deal but looks like I can do much better in the spring.
Thanks for your help gents.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,515
Likes: 17
From: Toronto
2016 C63 S
That's just not true. The vast majority of cars are strong runners. You've heard several stories in this forum of the occurrence, but it is not as widespread as you may suspect.
That aside, it's up to you I decide what you think is acceptable as your purchase. Dealer seems to be doing alot of fluffing on this car
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 381
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From: Toronto
09 C63, 11 Cayenne S
That's the thing... they are denying it is a headbolt issue and refuse to do the TSB work saying that the headbolt issue is something completely different and this engine is not affected.
I had them replace the drivers seat cover - they wouldn't budge on the passenger. I think my plan of attack is to have the passenger seat cover also replaced and $1000 off. If that doesn't work I will get my deposit back and move on. It looks like more engines are hydrolocking than not.
The price is $46k CDN and change on a 2010 with 50,000KMS. I figured it was a good deal but looks like I can do much better in the spring.
Thanks for your help gents.
I had them replace the drivers seat cover - they wouldn't budge on the passenger. I think my plan of attack is to have the passenger seat cover also replaced and $1000 off. If that doesn't work I will get my deposit back and move on. It looks like more engines are hydrolocking than not.
The price is $46k CDN and change on a 2010 with 50,000KMS. I figured it was a good deal but looks like I can do much better in the spring.
Thanks for your help gents.
The price isn't that good either at 46k. I got my 09 for 42k tax in with 52k on the odometer. I am a hard at negotiations though...lol. If I don't get what I want I just walk. A lot of cash in the pocket will make a sales guy think real hard about the sale
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 114
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From: Chicago
C
I'd walk away. Too many red flags. I too am looking at 11 & 12's due to that head bolt issue. If you're going to spend that much on a car you better be getting what you paid for and not have to worry about major issues.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
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2008 M3
That's just not true. The vast majority of cars are strong runners. You've heard several stories in this forum of the occurrence, but it is not as widespread as you may suspect.
That aside, it's up to you I decide what you think is acceptable as your purchase. Dealer seems to be doing alot of fluffing on this car
That aside, it's up to you I decide what you think is acceptable as your purchase. Dealer seems to be doing alot of fluffing on this car
May I ask what you mean by the dealer "fluffing" on the car? Do you mean you think they are trying to unload a lemon?
Cheers
Thread Starter
Junior Member
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2008 M3
If the engine was out of the car and they didn't do the tsb, I would walk away, especially having some kind of coolant issue. I missed that part.
The price isn't that good either at 46k. I got my 09 for 42k tax in with 52k on the odometer. I am a hard at negotiations though...lol. If I don't get what I want I just walk. A lot of cash in the pocket will make a sales guy think real hard about the sale
The price isn't that good either at 46k. I got my 09 for 42k tax in with 52k on the odometer. I am a hard at negotiations though...lol. If I don't get what I want I just walk. A lot of cash in the pocket will make a sales guy think real hard about the sale
When did you pickup your car? 42k tax in is $10,000 less than I am paying tax in. Based on that, I negotiated probably to worst deal in Toronto ... and on a lemon to boot.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,515
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From: Toronto
2016 C63 S
If you're not in a rush it might pay off to to pull the chute on this one and wait for a better car.
Does this one have the performance pac?
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
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2008 M3
Sorry....by fluffing, I meant they're doing alot of work to make this a CPO. Alot of cars come in and all they need is a set of tires and a detail. It just seems they're doing alot of work to the engine.
If you're not in a rush it might pay off to to pull the chute on this one and wait or a better car.
Does this one have the performance pac?
If you're not in a rush it might pay off to to pull the chute on this one and wait or a better car.
Does this one have the performance pac?
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,563
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C63 AMG
My friend is selling a C63 in Edmonton for a good deal, its second owner. The first owner was a doctor that lived down the street from me. its 09 with 45000km for 45k. Silver.. Comes with two sets of wheels.. msg me if interested.. Its 1000 to ship the car on the train to ON.
The car is solid, no problems with it at all.
The car is solid, no problems with it at all.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 7,860
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From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
2010 C63 AMG, 2009 ISF , 2002 L-Tuned IS300, 2011 ML350
46K for a 2010 with 50k km and all the troubles/repairs? Get your deposit back asap, I wouldnt touch it with a 10ft pole... LOL
