The Full Story On Cam Adjusters And Lifters
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 2
C63
Yes, I did use Seafoam this time, but Amsoil makes a great flush as well.
I wrote about my Camshaft adjuster problems and engine flush in the thread;
Cam Adjuster Gone Bad After an Oil Change?
--Disclaimer, you do a flush at your own risk because there is the possibility of damage if a cleaner is not compatible with sealing materials used in the engine. Perhaps a good idea to check with the engine cleaner manufacturer. I did the flush a year and a half ago and I have no leaks.
I used a half a can and then gently drove the vehicle to the dealer for the oil change. Normally you don't drive the vehicle with the flush in and only flush it for the time stated by the manufacturer on the can.
I wrote about my Camshaft adjuster problems and engine flush in the thread;
Cam Adjuster Gone Bad After an Oil Change?
--Disclaimer, you do a flush at your own risk because there is the possibility of damage if a cleaner is not compatible with sealing materials used in the engine. Perhaps a good idea to check with the engine cleaner manufacturer. I did the flush a year and a half ago and I have no leaks.
I used a half a can and then gently drove the vehicle to the dealer for the oil change. Normally you don't drive the vehicle with the flush in and only flush it for the time stated by the manufacturer on the can.
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 2
C63
Well this thread is about both issues and I have both.
Just to clarify though, I had the Camshaft adjuster issue a year and a half ago and it made the noise on every start up. Since I flushed the engine at that time I have no noise now except briefly once in every 30 starts or so when the car is really hot. So its not really an issue to me anymore, I can live with this.
I wrote about the situation in the thread; Cam Adjuster Gone Bad After an Oil Change?
Now the other issue being discussed here; over the last 20,000 km my valve train is getting noisier. This of coarse makes a different sound than the cam adjuster noise. I am now hearing the continual ticking between cam lobes and buckets (aka lifters, followers, whatever you want to call them) Instead of the valve train being silent because the buckets are hydraulically compensating for lash or clearance, we are getting ticking because the buckets are defectively soft and wearing away to the point they can no longer keep zero lash. So with the continued wear we now have the noise of the cam lobes beating the tops of the buckets into oblivion. As per the photos posted above...
I am just a little testy because not only should this not be happing in any car let alone a Mercedes, but then they are not having the decency to take responsibility for a clear defect.. and then they have the gall to charge outrageous prices for parts that only cost a fraction for other cars.
Just to clarify though, I had the Camshaft adjuster issue a year and a half ago and it made the noise on every start up. Since I flushed the engine at that time I have no noise now except briefly once in every 30 starts or so when the car is really hot. So its not really an issue to me anymore, I can live with this.
I wrote about the situation in the thread; Cam Adjuster Gone Bad After an Oil Change?
Now the other issue being discussed here; over the last 20,000 km my valve train is getting noisier. This of coarse makes a different sound than the cam adjuster noise. I am now hearing the continual ticking between cam lobes and buckets (aka lifters, followers, whatever you want to call them) Instead of the valve train being silent because the buckets are hydraulically compensating for lash or clearance, we are getting ticking because the buckets are defectively soft and wearing away to the point they can no longer keep zero lash. So with the continued wear we now have the noise of the cam lobes beating the tops of the buckets into oblivion. As per the photos posted above...
I am just a little testy because not only should this not be happing in any car let alone a Mercedes, but then they are not having the decency to take responsibility for a clear defect.. and then they have the gall to charge outrageous prices for parts that only cost a fraction for other cars.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 15
Likes: 1
2008 E63
I think it's important to separate the two issues. To the OP that's good info on the cam adjusters. My car is having them replaced at the moment. They were silent on start up but I was getting a code. I was also getting some light detonation sounds. I assume this was due to the intake cam not retarding properly.
The Cam/Lifter issue is 100% without a doubt an oil problem. This is not unique to Mercedes. The M156 high lift, high spring pressure, flat tappet valve train design requires an oil with high ZDDP levels.
The trouble began when the Feds started requiring OEM's to warranty cat life for 10y/100k and then 15y/150k. The high ZDDP oil kill cats slowly over time because of blowby.
Not all motors are effected by low ZDDP oil. Most lower revving, low valve spring pressure multi valve motors do not require high levels of ZDDP for protection. Others have gone on to use roller tappets like the new E63 5.5 motor.
Read all about oil drama here. http://lnengineering.com/resources/2...ut-motor-oils/
So what's a savy enthusiast to do at this point? Feed the motor the best oil possible with high ZDDP levels. Given the liability of the motor vs cats (and knowing OEM's have to warranty them alooong time) I'll protect the valvetrain first.
The Cam/Lifter issue is 100% without a doubt an oil problem. This is not unique to Mercedes. The M156 high lift, high spring pressure, flat tappet valve train design requires an oil with high ZDDP levels.
The trouble began when the Feds started requiring OEM's to warranty cat life for 10y/100k and then 15y/150k. The high ZDDP oil kill cats slowly over time because of blowby.
Not all motors are effected by low ZDDP oil. Most lower revving, low valve spring pressure multi valve motors do not require high levels of ZDDP for protection. Others have gone on to use roller tappets like the new E63 5.5 motor.
Read all about oil drama here. http://lnengineering.com/resources/2...ut-motor-oils/
So what's a savy enthusiast to do at this point? Feed the motor the best oil possible with high ZDDP levels. Given the liability of the motor vs cats (and knowing OEM's have to warranty them alooong time) I'll protect the valvetrain first.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,274
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From: Seattle
2008 Mercedes Benz E63
My car has had the factory 5 40 in it for 107,000 miles, and so far I've been good. I know there are people on here that work with engine oil for a living, and have proven the 0-40 to be a more "protective" oil. I used to run VR1 in my 4G63 for the high zinc content.
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 61
Likes: 1
From: Nashville, TN
2008 ML320cdi, 2008 SL600Renntech, 2009 C63
I had every issue described. After new lifters and cam adjusters the noise came back. Turned out it was carbon build up the whole time. After a massive upper engine cleaning with x66p and sea foam the noise has gone away. It took 6 months and 10k of Mercedes "warranty" to find and fix the problems. MB flew techs in from NJ and FL to diagnose. Btw cam adjusters were definitely bad and the sb recommendation to replace them at time of head bolt issues is probably accurate. My car jumped in power after adjusters were replaced even though there was no error until they failed. It also jumped again after de-carbon of upper engine
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,274
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From: Seattle
2008 Mercedes Benz E63
I just sent snowmuch a P/M. I need to figure out my lack of power. I wonder if I have cams with dead lobes. My car does not making any tapping noises, but I have a feeling I have a cam or adjuster issue on my hands.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2012
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From: Calgary
C63 AMG
Replied. My car wasn't down on power tho, I've driven other C63s as well.
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,298
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From: Texas
10 C six trizzle
I have seen some of these issues with the adjusters and lifters (ones that go away after warm up) go away with a change in oil to the recommended amg oil weight 0w-40. just throwing that out there since you mentioned 5w-40. obviously if it is truely a mechanical issue no oil is going to help
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 15
Likes: 1
2008 E63
It would be great to log cam advance/retard patterns (no load, full load etc) and overlay them with a car that has new adjusters. I suspect these things don't just fail and make noise. I bet they become lazy and sloppy long before they quit working.
Since you're a MB tech can you get you hands on some used ones for me? I want to take some of them apart and see if we can't get to the bottom of this and improve the design. It maybe as simple as cleaning them and replacing O rings.
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From: Kitchener, ON
2010 C63 AMG
I'd have to dig for the thread but I remember reading about someone who did this on a different MB platform.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 15
Likes: 1
2008 E63
Cam adjuster problems occur on other marques as well. BMW has been know to have catastrophic failure of VANOs. Audi has similar issues to Mercedes.
Check out this JHM rebuild kit for Audi. Once we know the real internal problem a longer term solution can be engineered.
Check out this JHM rebuild kit for Audi. Once we know the real internal problem a longer term solution can be engineered.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,274
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From: Seattle
2008 Mercedes Benz E63
Good information. I have had to send back all of the adjusters I have replaced. I do have two cams. I called Delta cam to see if they could weld and regrind to stock spec and he said he did not have the tooling to get it done.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 15
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2008 E63
Call Faith at Web Cam. I already spoke to her about welding/regrinding the cams. She said it can be done. You will have to pay to get it profiled but otherwise it's straight forward. I've had great luck with WebCam on the Porsche cams and Miata race cars. The hard welding and retreating will solve any future issues.
Put the word out and try and get your hands on those adjusters. I will pressure my repair shop to keep mine as well. Right now I am just hoping they don't try and deny the claim!
Put the word out and try and get your hands on those adjusters. I will pressure my repair shop to keep mine as well. Right now I am just hoping they don't try and deny the claim!
Member
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 125
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C63 2012 M156
I replaced the Viton and Teflon seal in my VANOS units in my BMW and ran them through a press to crush the lips over and reduce oil leak down.
This had a profound impact on midrange pull and noise reduction.
http://www.beisansystems.com/procedu..._procedure.htm
My 2012 C63 had issues with warm start as per others. I wonder if the cams are started full retard once the engine cools down enough to trigger the cold start run program. Hence the noise is not so prominent on cold starts.
After an oil change (a dealer had put 0-30 in it) the issue went away for some time but now has settled back to a slight tapping noise from the right bank at idle. Odd for a car with only 14k miles on it.
Interesting that the new adjusters are stiffer than used. Springs loosing their tension from oil getting too hot?
Also interesting that a de-carbon helped. These cars, especially the face lifts, can cook their oil, which is a great way to turn it in to sludge.
Very keen to help find a fix for this issue.
This had a profound impact on midrange pull and noise reduction.
http://www.beisansystems.com/procedu..._procedure.htm
My 2012 C63 had issues with warm start as per others. I wonder if the cams are started full retard once the engine cools down enough to trigger the cold start run program. Hence the noise is not so prominent on cold starts.
After an oil change (a dealer had put 0-30 in it) the issue went away for some time but now has settled back to a slight tapping noise from the right bank at idle. Odd for a car with only 14k miles on it.
Interesting that the new adjusters are stiffer than used. Springs loosing their tension from oil getting too hot?
Also interesting that a de-carbon helped. These cars, especially the face lifts, can cook their oil, which is a great way to turn it in to sludge.
Very keen to help find a fix for this issue.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 15
Likes: 1
2008 E63
Why do you think that? Your HP is spot on for a stage 2 kit. TQ is down a bit but all in all yours looks right where I would expect it to be. What you really need is a stage 3 blower!
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
ml63 amg
Hi all i have noticed this thread and was wondering if anyone could help as i have been told this might have happened to my 2006 ml63
would this problem cause engine codes
system to lean at bank 1 and
system to lean at bank 2
i have replaced both MAF sensors with brand new from mercedes but still the same codes
if this is the problem will mercedes sort the issue out as it was a common fault with this engine or will i have to pay for this myself
and how do you find out which cam is failing
sorry for all the questions i just don't want a huge expensive bill if i can help it and get the right advice
thanks
would this problem cause engine codes
system to lean at bank 1 and
system to lean at bank 2
i have replaced both MAF sensors with brand new from mercedes but still the same codes
if this is the problem will mercedes sort the issue out as it was a common fault with this engine or will i have to pay for this myself
and how do you find out which cam is failing
sorry for all the questions i just don't want a huge expensive bill if i can help it and get the right advice
thanks
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,217
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2012 c63 AMG, 2011 GLK 350, 2019 GLS 450
Hi all i have noticed this thread and was wondering if anyone could help as i have been told this might have happened to my 2006 ml63
would this problem cause engine codes
system to lean at bank 1 and
system to lean at bank 2
i have replaced both MAF sensors with brand new from mercedes but still the same codes
if this is the problem will mercedes sort the issue out as it was a common fault with this engine or will i have to pay for this myself
and how do you find out which cam is failing
sorry for all the questions i just don't want a huge expensive bill if i can help it and get the right advice
thanks
would this problem cause engine codes
system to lean at bank 1 and
system to lean at bank 2
i have replaced both MAF sensors with brand new from mercedes but still the same codes
if this is the problem will mercedes sort the issue out as it was a common fault with this engine or will i have to pay for this myself
and how do you find out which cam is failing
sorry for all the questions i just don't want a huge expensive bill if i can help it and get the right advice
thanks
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
ml63 amg
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,217
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2012 c63 AMG, 2011 GLK 350, 2019 GLS 450
This is about cam adjuster noise not about cams that are too soft and bad lifter design in older m156 motors. The noise causes no codes
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2015
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2012 c63 AMG, 2011 GLK 350, 2019 GLS 450
Realized you said nothing about bad cams my bad this is more of a noise thing specifically to the cam adjusters which in most everyone's case has not caused a cel didn't see you say anything about a noise just codes
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2015
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ml63 amg
this is why i hate going to garages cams adjusters do not cause air leak codes
after the garage told me it was this problem and it will be expensive he said how much would i want for the car in the condition its in so seems to me he wanted the car
i stripped out the air intake today and found a very brittle and broke crankcase pipe so i think there lies my problem with the air leak so when i replace that i will replace the intake gaskets as well
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,274
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From: Seattle
2008 Mercedes Benz E63
I actually have a full set adjusters and a bunch of good cams for sale.
The lobes on my car turned out to be fine. Everything is ok. The power it makes is what it is. My dad just got an SL65 that is stock, and my car is much faster. Almost to the point where it makes the SL feel slow. Track times will be the only way to tell.
The lobes on my car turned out to be fine. Everything is ok. The power it makes is what it is. My dad just got an SL65 that is stock, and my car is much faster. Almost to the point where it makes the SL feel slow. Track times will be the only way to tell.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,697
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2005 E55
I just got my 13 p31 car back after getting 4 new cam adjusters installed and the noise is still there. I told them its coming from the drivers side valve train and the car is going back Jan 4th.
They had my car for 2 weeks also.
They had my car for 2 weeks also.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2015
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2012 c63 AMG, 2011 GLK 350, 2019 GLS 450
That sucks but I knew it cause was the same for me. Keep us posted if it gets figured out. I hope it does
