I’m trying to understand the differences between the C63 and C63s. Is there a difference between the AMG Dynamics Setting “Master” (only on the S) and Pro with ESP set to sport (available on both)?

The manual is really vague with these things. I imagine the S involves adjustments for the engine mounts. Do they have the same “willingness” to oversteer?

 

Yes, there is a difference. Master is what's used by the Race mode, which the non-S doesn't have. It's the most dynamic setting for the chassis dynamics and allows bigger drift angles than Pro for example. I had my car literally 90 degree sideways at one point in Master with ESP in Sport Handling mode, which taught me that Master is not meant for the road. You better have plenty of space to play with Master. They both oversteer, but the S in Master mode is one level up. One of the key differences is the S has the 9-stage traction control from the AMG GT R, whereas the non-S has the old traditional traction control that mainly uses the brakes. With the combination of Master, ESP off and adjusting TC in 9-stages there is much more control in the S, than in the non-S. At the AMG Driving Academy we were drifting the C63S coupe and were specifically instructed to put it in Race mode for the proper dynamics to drift and obviously ESP fully off. Then we dialed in various different levels of TC to see how it affects the drift. You can basically go from safe drifting with the wheels only slightly braking loose, to complete smoking tire drifting just by dialing in different levels of TC. Although, the 9-stage TC shouldn't be confused with a drift angle control system, but it can be used to control the amount of drift by controlling the amount of allowed wheel spin. Also to note, the Master mode can only be used with ESP in Sport Handling mode or off, otherwise it locks out Master mode and Race mode reverts back to Pro. Same if you use Master in your Individual mode. It reverts back to Pro if ESP is on.

 

Thank you @superswiss for the extremely detailed reply. I appreciate your expertise.

While traction control is awesome, I’m only concerned with the behavior of the vehicle in “ESP Sport”.

The manual says the following about ESP Sport:
Select ESP® SPORT when the vehicle's own oversteering and understeering characteristics are desired, e.g. on designated roads

So maybe I should rephrase the question, what specifically changes in vehicle dynamics between Master + ESP Sport and Pro + ESP Sport (assuming “drive”, exhaust, suspension, and transmission settings are the same)?

 

In the simplest terms what changes is how far it lets you slide the tail out before it intervenes, aka drift angle.

Basically, AMG DYNAMICS is two things. The first thing is an active driving dynamics system. It does torque vectoring on the rear axle to give you different handling and steering characteristics. Basically it controls and assists with the handling and how much the car rotates based on the steering input. In Basic mode it gives stable handling w/ little if any oversteer all the way up to Master where the car's natural oversteer characteristic is dominant and lets you exploit the full potential.

Here's how AMG explains this aspect. Never mind the AMG GT context. It's the same system. The C63 got it before the GT: https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaS...l?oid=42956027

The second aspect is the ESP thresholds. Basically instead of just giving you three ESP modes (On, Sport, Off), you get 12 combined modes. ESP Sport relaxes the yaw control threshold, again, meaning how much does it let the car slide/drift before ESP intervenes to bring you back. Instead of just having one Sport level, you effectively have 4. ESP Sport Basic, Advanced, Pro and Master. Each one raises the thresholds higher and higher. AMG doesn't publish exact numbers of the allowed drift angles, but from experience ESP Sport + Pro allows maybe 30-45 degrees of drift angle, and ESP Sport + Master as I've experienced myself allows up to 90 degrees of drift angle. Basically what happened to me was I overdid it with the throttle, and ended up in a 90 degree drift. It held the car at 90 degrees. If I had ESP turned off in that situation I would have done a 360. If I had it in Pro instead, it would have stopped me from going past 30-45 degrees drift angle. Basically the higher the AMG DYNAMICS mode, the more freedom it gives you before intervening. Obviously if you turn ESP off then you are on your own, until you step on the brakes, which in case of AMGs temporarily reactivates ESP to help you bring the car back under control.

ESP Sport also reduces TC and allows more wheel spin, but from my experience the AMG DYNAMICS mode doesn't increase the amount of allowed wheel spin, or maybe I just cannot tell. But you can always fully turn off ESP and manually adjust the TC level.

 

It might just be me, but it sounds like superswiss has just regurgitated a bunch of Mercedes marketing crap without giving any technical details. Does anyone know what these settings ACTUALLY do?

 

I think superswiss has more knowledge and in using them then you think ... so..

 

Is English your second language? If that's the case, it makes sense that you'd conflate lots of words with knowledge.

 

lol hahaha man you so funny .. make me laugh long time.. haha lol

 

I’ve also been confused on how the different systems in our cars. I’ll a stab here based on my research...

AMG Dynamics = how much and how tight/precise the car will turn when turning the steering wheel (including the tightening of engine mounts on S variants)

ESP = how much the computer will intervene to control the speed of individual wheels to prevent skids

Traction control= how much the wheels are allowed to spin

This is probably oversimplified but that’s my current understanding. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

 

Well, I don't expect everybody here to have an engineering degree, so explaining a complex algorithmic control system like AMG DYNAMICS ultimately has to be dumbed-down. Having said that, the technical details are proprietary and I'm not privy to the codebase if you expect somebody to walk you through the actual algorithms, but my background is in electrical and computer engineering and I understand how control systems work, have designend many myself, and I understand how vehicle dynamics works and how it can be actively influenced by a system like AMG DYNAMICS. Sorry, if it missed your mark on technical details, but as said, they are not available to the public. Feel free to do your own homework on subjects such as control systems, active vehicle dynamics and specifically active yaw control and try to understand what such a system does and how it works at whatever technical level of detail you desire. There's plenty of information and white papers out there about how dynamic stability control systems etc work. What is new is that ESP systems used to be reactive and intervened only once the car was unstable, nowadays systems like AMG DYNAMICS are proactive and actively shape the vehicle dynamics with the help of electronic differentials, brake based torque vectoring as well as active damping and in case of the C63S active engine mounts.

 

Yo @superswiss dont waste your time or breath on this TOOL, he apparently just wants to be a smarta$$ and think he already knows more then everyone else. Truth be told, prob watched the weekend long broadcast of Fast and Furious and now thinks he can drift his car, but cant get the tires to spin.

Your input and knowledge (some that you have given to myself as well) is far worth more then entertaining this troll.

 

@superswiss thanks for all the information so far. The “twelve levels” thing makes sense to me. It’s unfortunate that more details aren’t made available.

I would love to get info from MB directly, I wonder what the most appropriate channel for that would be. Maybe the AMG Private Lounge? Although, I doubt they would share much besides “more sporty, more dynamics”.

I wonder if steering characteristics change below the limit.

 

I don't see AMG engineers answering questions in the Private Lounge. I got a wealth of information from the private factory tour in Affalterbach when I took delivery of my car in Germany. You can also get information out of them at the AMG Driving Academy events. Unfortunately due to COVID they are not happening at the moment. AMG is not particularly forthcoming with technical information in the public domain.

 

This was an informative thread for me.

Im curious about a few more things, one of them is how ESP Sport (on respective Dynamics settings) compares to TC 1-9 levels could correspond to one another. For example, can the TC level be directly correlated to some factor of ESP Sport and a Dynamics setting? e.g.
TC6 == ESP Sport in Advanced Dynamics mode
TC8 == ESP Sport in Pro Dynamics mode

I'd be curious if any of you have found some nice settings for TC levels, or you just stick with ESP Sport?

Im still trying to find the perfect Individual settings for city driving. While I'd like very aggressive driving mechanics at times (outside city in mountain roads for example) I'd like them a bit more subdued while in the city; striving for some comfort and playfulness. For example engine in Moderate and Dynamics in Advanced + ESP Sport. I've tried to move the Dynamics to Pro, but while in individual settings when turning on ESP Sport it always goes to Master (if I had it set on Pro). Why is this? This behavior is not present while in Sport+ (one can activate ESP Sport and it will stay on Master).

If you don't use ESP Sport or some factor of the TC levels, can you slide at all? It seems the ESP will stop most (all of it)?

 

Not sure what level ESP Sport correlates to, but it certainly relaxes TC to some degree and allows some wheel slip. Perhaps one interesting piece of information is that if you turn off ESP it defaults to level 5. Not sure if that means it's at level 5 in ESP Sport as well. However, at the AMG Driving Academy we drifted the C63S with various TC settings in Race mode. Specifically level 6, 3 and off. I can definitely get larger drift angles in ESP Sport than with ESP off and TC at level 6, so level 5 sounds actually about right.

On public roads I stick with ESP Sport and AMG DYNAMCIS in Pro or Master. Master only on deserted canyon roads. For city/town driving I don't see a need for anything other than Comfort mode most of the time. It allows plenty of play and has a sporty response. My individual mode is setup mainly for higher speed dynamic driving such as daily highway driving and open road driving, and I activate it if I want it a bit more dynamic than Comfort offers on surface streets and put ESP in Sport. I have Drive set to Dynamic, AMG DYNAMICS to Pro, Suspension to Sport and Exhaust on Powerful and the Transmission in M. I pretty much put the transmission in M for anything other than Comfort mode.

As for Master mode, you can only use Master in ESP Sport or Off, otherwise it reverts back to Pro. I'm not quite following what you are saying is happening in your car, but if you set AMG DYNAMICS to Pro in your Individual mode it should stay in Pro at all times. However, if you set it to Master it will stay in Pro unless you put ESP in Sport of Off. Master is locked out with ESP fully on. Same happens if you put it in Race mode. AMG DYNAMICS will be in Pro while in Race mode, unless ESP is in Sport or Off. This is explained in the owners manual. I pretty much have the AMG Performance display up on the left in my digital instrument cluster at all times, so I can see what mode the individual components are in.

 

ESP Sport gives you more drift than TC 6? In which Dynamics mode?

Check out this short video. If I set to Pro in individual it will swap to Master when I turn on ESP Sport. I don't want the 90 drift, so I'd prefer it will stay in Pro. You can see the same behavior in Race mode.

https://photos.app.*******/1EVvzqdJxbxpC43Q9

That's goo "dot" gl after the ".app."

It sounds like the Race mode is behaving per the manual, but my Individual mode is not behaving as it should?

ESP Sport and Master will cause serious drift potential, right (just re-read -- only for Canyons, yet I cannot get Pro in Individual + ESP Sport)? I feel like I need ESP Sport on at all times to have any playfulness; even in Comfort Dynamics (which is nice).

 

Pro and especially Master. I suspect given my 90 degree sideways experience in Master mode that TC is even lower than 5 in Master. I find Pro with ESP in Sport has enough of a safety net to not get in too much trouble, while still allow plenty of drift angle.

The link doesn't work for me. Something seems to be goofed up, but yes from your description something isn't right. As I said my AMG DYNAMICS is in Pro in my individual mode and it stays in Pro when I put ESP in Sport. I used to have it in Master in my Individual mode and that's how I got in trouble. Basically my Individual mode is setup like Sport+, except it keeps the suspension in Sport and puts the transmission in M, but otherwise everything is and behaves like Sport+.

Yes it does. Now that I'm more confident with the car and felt out the limits I'm actually pretty comfortable with Master and ESP in Sport. It makes a difference in the canyons. I basically put it in Race mode, transmission in M and ESP in Sport for the canyons. It has a much better throttle control that way and behaves very progressive with the handling. I think part of the issue were the Pilot Super Sport tires. I felt that I had a hard time telling when I reached the limits of grip. The PS4S are much better and more communicative and I learned to modulate the throttle better and not have sudden boost throw me into a spin. All of us were doing a lot of 360s at the AMG Driving Academy because of too much throttle.