maxwerks

Hello to all ..
I am considering the purchase of a 2003 ( or other years ) CL600 , while I have always loved the supercharged V8 ( W211 , and CL55s ) there is something also very intriguing about the V12 Twin Turbo engines....BUT I am afraid that I am not that familiar with the " issues " of the CL600 nor am I too familiar with the CL W215 Chassis in general .. so any guidance and help is greatly appreciated .

- All 2003 CL600 are Twin Turbos correct , 2002 is the last of the V12 NA engines, correct ? Or should confirm that even on a 2003 ?

- The CL600 uses Hydraulic suspension ( Oil ) as opposed to the Airmatic suspension on the W211 E55 EVEN THOUGH BOTH ARE CALLED ABC suspension , is this correct ?

- I have read that the Hydraulic suspension is an expensive complicated system , is it more so than the Airmatic ? At what miles would someone expect to see some problems with the suspension .. I Know of course it is subject to proper maintenance but is the system more prone to wear than the Airmatic ?

- From what I have read , there are no alternatives yet to convert the system to coilover or other options .. or are there ?

- Any major issues one should watch out for ?

- Can someone direct me to a post describing the stock exhaust and the best modification done for it ... did anyone make headers for the V12 ? Long Tubes? X pipe ?

- One thing turns me off on the Non AMG CL600 is the Brakes .. they seem to teeny compared to the CL65 ... are they a decent ? What are the specs on the stock Brakes for the Non AMG Cl600 .. vs CL65 and are they a direct swap? or can brakes from SL or E be adapted to fit on the CL ?

- Can someone please tell me the stock wheel/tire/offset of the CL600 ?

I know it is a lot of questions , sorry I just want to make the right decision between the two chassis , so your help is greatly appreciated .
Regards,

1995E320Cab

I'll take a crack at this

1 - Yes all W215 CL600 2003-2006 are V12 TT
2 - Yes
3 - I have read many things about this, I think like most things the expense can very greatly deepening on who does the work. Issues have show up at lower miles, none until high miles and some say they have never had an issue.
4 - Arnott Industries is working on this, check around in the S class section, they talk about it more as there are way more S class cars than CL cars
5 - ABC, Coil Packs are the 2 most common you will read about. Lots of info on both, some say Coil Packs can be fixed for much less that new.
6 - https://mbworld.org/forums/m275-v12-...ification.html
7 - I've never read any real complaints about them, you can always upgrade if you like with after market or a used AMG set
8 - This is a good chart to use http://www.alloywheelsdirect.net/inf.../mercedes-benz
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saintz

Having owned a W210 E55 AMG and a CL600 TT, get the CL. Short of fighter jets, even airplanes are jealous of the power. It will spoil you for life for any other car. Although the CL is generally not built as well or engineered as reliably as the W210, I have actually spent less money and perhaps equal time working on my CL compared to my W210. While I loved the hand built E55, the CL is simply in another league in terms of power and luxury. The E55 was driven by bankers with kids while the CL600 was driven by the guy who owned the bank and had a nanny to drive the kids.

2003 and up means twin turbo. If not, they're lying about the year.

ABC is hydraulic (oil), Airmatic is pneumatic (air). They are separate systems. The W220 S is available with either. The W215 CL is only available with ABC.

Airmatic generally works more reliably because it still has springs to support weight. The air acts as a dampener. In ABC, it uses hydraulics to support the weight of the car. That means more propensity for leaks, both in the strut and in the valve block, which regulates pressure to each strut. Major problems are burst hoses, failed accumulators (which act like a safeguard for the system when you hit a pothole), leaking valve blocks, leaking struts, and pump burnouts. If you keep the reservoir full, you won't burn the pump out. Replace the hoses when they get worn before they break. Replace the accumulators prematurely. Replace the struts if they leak. If the valve block leaks slowly (weekly or overnight), leave it, it's not worth replacing. If it leaks fast (hourly or while driving) replace it. If you take a sensible approach to preventative maintenance and only fix the valve block when it has real problems (even MB says it will leak over time because it uses metal instead of rubber seals for reliability) you will save serious money.

If you want a standard suspension, you're better not buying the CL. The whole idea is you get a 2 ton car that can still perform and ride smoothy.

Check all the electronics and pneumatics for doors and trunk.

The brakes are adequate but not great. Definitely not meant for track use, but this is not a track car, it's a one-stop GT. You can swap the brakes, though.

1995E320Cab

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Great post Saintz !!

maxwerks

Saintz thank you and 1995E320CAb so very much for taking the time to help me ... I am sure there are so many things I still dont know about the W215 but I am doing a lot of catch up ...Thank you again , Max

maxwerks

Saintz ,thank you again for helping .. it is funny that you now mention that you also owned the E55 .. Now I remember your name from our forum.. funny thing about that W210 E55 .. even now as I am considering another car .. I keep hopping in the E55 and I cant imagine selling it ... of course I have gone through a lot of modding work with it .. some kleemann work but never brought myself to supercharge it ... pulley.. 19s Kinesis , exhaust , Brembos etc... somehow there is something about that car that makes me want to keep it ... I somehow feel that I can throw it around .. and I have a feeling that I will miss that .. but I figured either V12 cruiser or V8 supercharged ...W211 E55 , W215 Cl600 , Sl65 were the only contenders... I am giving the CL600 some serious thought as the one i am looking at is special for sure ... somehow I better get something I wont modd or at least " LIghtly " as my wife has had it with me !
Thank you again , I am so glad to hear that you love your V12

calgary

Agree: Especially the ABC description

1995E320Cab

Maxwerks I had forgotten about the below Car and Driver comparison test that you may like to read on the W215 CL600 ....

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

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maxwerks

Thank you so much yes I must have read all articles about the CL so far !!LOL ..
reality is they are great cars ... I will probably end up keeping my W210 E55 only because I have history with it , and there is still something very special about it , .. now it is a toss up between a cruiser ( 600 ) or something I can toss around ,( 55 which I love )

maxwerks

Well it looks like its a deal , just trying to arange for the PPI then that 040 Black 2004 CL600 is mine .. wish me luck ...my first introduction to Twin Turbo Land !
I know there must be many variation and biases on upgrading tires and wheels .. on the W210 E55 I ran 19s ..I would have NEVER gone to 20.. as comfort is still important to me ... but what is the agreed to majority opinion on the CL with it heft ... would 19 do just fine , or 20 is the way to go ? Tire sizes ?
I figured the following .. 245-40-19 / 275/35/19 or in 20s : 255/35/20 & 285/30/20 ? I have no intention of slamming that car , nor any desire to run on rubber bands !

1995E320Cab

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Congrats ! Hope the deal goes thru clean for you, good to see more V12TT guys coming on board !
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maxwerks

Thank you 1995... it is really the only model where the AMG and Non AMG line is blurred ! The one to be mine has the AMG package ...parktrobnic , Alcantara ..etc..and the DVD NAV which I really wanted ..by the way , are you running 19s or 20s?

1995E320Cab

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20's all the way for me

FormulaZR

I've got some drag radials that fit the factory 18's for sale in the classifieds section...in case any of you torque monsters need them.

saintz

In terms of modding, there aren't really headers for the 600. You would have to pull the motor to change them, and it wouldn't be worth it. All you really need is a tune (talk to Jerry at Eurocharged). After that, you need cooling and sticky rubber (FormulaZR knows about both).

If you can keep the E55, I would. If I had room, I would have kept it. I should have given it to my wife. Check Jay Leno's garage, and you'll see one sitting right up front, even with million dollar rides in there. Still, I don't regret going to the CL... it's amazing.

FormulaZR

The information is somewhat limited for do-it-yourselfers; however it is out there. Once you have it the info, it's amazing how easy the car is to actually turn a wrench on. For instance, I can change either coil pack on a V12TT car in under 20 minutes - and that's from the time I pop the hood to begin to the time I shut the hood to test drive.

Here's what's super easy to work on in a V12TT car:
1) Coil packs/spark plug changes
2) Replacing any exterior bulb besides the HIDs
3) Intercooler pump replacement
4) Any work involving air intake - not including the turbos

It's actually unreal how user/tech friendly the cars are. Don't get me wrong, they are complex - but once you have the problem diagnosed, the parts replacement isn't too bad for most stuff.

Here's the common issues on W215's:

1) Intercooler pumps - you can usually tell because the car will run great when first started, but get "slower" as it heats up. The IC system on the V12TTs is a closed system, and the IC system on the 55's is part of the engine cooling system.

2) ABC - you've probably heard and know about this, but they have LOTS of ABC problems. Hard to tell before you buy it unless you can see it after it's been sitting for a few hours/days/weeks. The fluid is easy to check, and shouldn't really ever be low. It's a closed system...so where would the fluid go if it wasn't a true leak? Most cars will still bleed down after a few weeks, but should stay up for about a week. Check the damper hose on these for the first signs of leaking that could lead to a system failure.

3) Misfire problems - this is usually related to the coil packs, but can also be spark plugs, the red spark plug insulating boots, the ignition "module", or even throttle body related. Most of the time, coil packs fail in "threes" - what I mean is, the way they are designed 3 cylinders are on the same "circuit" - so say you have a misfire on cylinders 7, 8, and 9 - it's probably a coil pack. It doesn't always work like that, but most of the time it does. Coil packs are about $1200-1300 per side - I can get them from the local M-B dealer for about $900. Also, these cars have 24 spark plugs- don't forget to budget for them.

4) Weird/oddball codes - for whatever reason these cars sometime come up with check engine lights and warning messages for no good reason. I personally think it's because they are so complex - but maybe not. Anyway, a code reader is good to have with these cars. Just reset the code, and if it comes back you know you have a problem - if not, it's the car having a temper tantrum. Many of the codes trigger a version of limp home mode on these cars - when it happens they won't make any boost...so they'll be way down on power. Maybe mine is the only one this has happened to? I once had an "incorrect gear ratio code"...how neat.

5) Transmission issues - the transmission is STONG...real strong. But, one of the connectors sometimes has transmission fluid creep up - which basically triggers a short. It's not a big deal to fix, and is relatively cheap - but will make you think you have bigger problems. Over time, with lots of mods and lots of "abuse" they can wear their clutches down to the point of slipping. ALL transmissions regardless of make with this kind of power that are driven hard (drag strip, etc) will exhibit this kind of wear.

6) PSE/air pump issues - this is the "soft close" and locking function of the car. As you probably know, these cars will shut their own doors if they are "ajar" - if they don't, or if the door locks won't work it's an air pump problem. The lumber/seat functions are actually on a separate "circuit" on the pump.

7) Plastic - this is kind of funny - Mercedes used a lot of very expensive, high-quality materials...except on the plastic. The plastic on these cars is extremely brittle - so be careful what you pry on/against. If you don't glue it, it will spread like a bad windshield crack.

8) Glass - the front glass is kind of soft, so it'll scratch real easily (I hear). Also, the door glass is double layered - as these cars age, the glass will delaminate from deteriorating adhesive. Some bubbles in the windows are ok...lots of bubbles is not good. It'll kind look like a bad tint job - but the bubbles are smaller. Mostly this is a cosmetic issues - but it is around $1500 per side window to replace (at my last price check).

9) Auto window/roof problems - after a battery disconnect, the windows need to be "reset". It's really easy to do; but if it's not done the auto down/open/up/close functions don't work correctly. Usually you can reset them, sometimes it's gone so long that new module is needed. Not a huge deal - but it will also help you figure out how much the owner knows about the car.

10) Lumbar seats - check these, not just for solenoid click but also for inflation. Also, see if they stay up after they inflate. These are known for leaking bladders.

11) SRS System - there is a thin film in the front seats that provides information to the SRS system. Apply pressure/move around in the seats before you buy it to see if any SRS codes trigger.

12) Transmission mount/Motor mounts - If you start the car and it has a weird vibration and/or has a vibration while driving, it could be either the motor mounts or the transmission mount. The transmission mount is cheap, and can be replaced at an M-B dealer for about $155 parts and labor. The motor mounts are hydraulic, and usually some leaking fluid/grease stain type think will indicate motor mount failure. These are much more to replace - in the $1000 plus range I believe.

13) Nav/Comand - 03 cars have a D2B CD based Comand system while 04+ cars have a MOST DVD based Comand. It's not really an "issue", but with the 03 as you travel cross country (or maybe live in a borderline area) you have to switch CDs. That also requires you to purchase updates as a complete set, and keep up with a complete set. With the DVD system, it's a one disc deal. An 03 can't be upgraded to a MOST DVD system without substantial cost. I'd lean towards an 04+.

...that's about all I can think of.


Here's the good news:

The engines and transmissions of these cars are almost bulletproof. I don't know why you'd shoot them, but if you did they'd be fine. Ok, bad joke - but seriously these are incredibly stout cars. I personally feel like the 600 is built "better" than the 55. When the Chrysler guys upgrade their transmissions on the newer 300/Charger/Challenger platform cars, they basically use the parts the 600 comes with stock. The transmission of the 600 is of the same type as the 55, but the 600 has stronger parts in it to deal with the V12's torque.

These cars also do not have limited slip differentials - the use the traction control to give the illusion of limited slip. These can be added; BUT this is a Catch 22. Which the stock rear end, the tires will spin. If you have an LSD and sticky tires a GOOD launch can have you buying parts...just keep this in mind before you set the drag strip on fire.

I have driven the 600 and the 55 - and obviously people have different opinions, but to me the 55 just isn't in the same league as a 600. The 600 has more growing room, is more refined, and is stronger than the 55. The only advantage to the 55 is that it has AMG badges, has V8 growl, and currently has a larger aftermarket following. BUT - the two quickest Mercedes' in the world are both V12s.



As for the brakes - the stock ones are OK. They can adequately stop the car from almost any speed in a "reasonable" distance. But, it's still a 2+ ton car...it doesn't defy physics. Basically, don't get the CL confused with a GT-R and everything will be ok. There are upgrade brake options out there, but I personally never saw the need for better brakes on this car.


RE Exhaust - with the stock turbos, the factory manifolds aren't really a restriction. The small turbos generate SERIOUS heat when they are pushed, and for a manifold upgrade to be effective I think you'd need to have some turbo work done...Speedriven does turbo upgrades. Unless you'd interested in BIG power, I'd leave the exhaust from the turbos forward alone. Downpipe back mods have been proven to gain between 10-30 rwhp (maybe more, but I'm not aware of it).



I thought maybe it'd help to explain what a TCU tune does.

The TCU "limits" torque by telling the ECU to close the throttle before a shift and by telling it to open after a shift. What a TCU tune does is change those "maps". Say the car stock shifts at 5800 rpm and hits 2500 rpm after the shift, maybe the stock TCU backs out of the throttle at 5400 and then doesn't come back into throttle fully until 2800 rpm. Well, a TCU tune might make that 5700 rpm and 2600 rpm. I don't know exact numbers - but that's a general explanation.



Here's everything I know about drag racing a CL600 can be read HERE


And an acceleration vid of my CL600 can be viewed HERE



Assuming you are purchasing a stock car, this should be the order of your mods (in my opinion).
1) ECU/TCU tune (just get these done together and be done with it)
2) Heat exchanger and possibly intercooler pump upgrade/reservoir (HONESTLY, this should be #1...but nobody listens to that) - these cars already make more boost than they can cool, and when the IAT's spike they dump boost and run as an N/A car.
3) Sticky tires
4) Quaife LSD
5) Exhaust


Let me know if you have any other questions or want more elaboration on anything.

saintz

Nicely said.

I'd love to see a better heat management system, like a giant radiator and giant HE. There is tons of room in the front of the car, which is mostly dead space. I've seen aftermarket radiators that are cool to the touch, even on tuned turbo cars. Our cars just plain run hot, and the HE upgrades really don't seem sufficient.

1995E320Cab

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FormulaZR, you RULE, please get another V12TT and save the world from the fear most seem to have for them. You make it all so simple and straightforward !

These truly amazing cars.

Thanks Zack your the best !


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1995E320Cab

That would be great, who makes them ? Would they need to be custom made ?

Have you done or are planing to do any cooling mods ?
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FormulaZR

There really aren't any "off the shelf" heat exchangers that are better/bigger than the one I had - and mine wasn't enough.

On a 60* day, three somewhat back to back 1/4 mile runs would have the water in my reservoir up to 120* from an 80* start. On the same 60* day, starting with a cold car and 65* water, I pumped most of the water out of the reservoir, filled it back up with ice, topped off with cold water from a cooler, had a static reservoir temp of 40* - made one 1/4 mile run and the water was 75* by the time I got back to the staging area.

Aftermarket intercoolers would have definitely helped my car.

Bigger heat exchangers could be made. I was working on making my own. Don't laugh, but I was using evaporator cores from the A/C system of various other vehicles (Also use these to make radiators for water cooled experimental aircraft). I would assume a custom core could easily be made with some careful measurements. It's all a big area/volume equation to get the best results...with a dual/double pass core being the best. Surface area is a big part of it, but how many rows you can stack is another factor, so a huge single row or a "small" 5 row might be equal. You'd need to experiment and find the best middle ground. I would think a 27"x14"x2-3" might could be shoehorned in, but I don't know. I was using the evaporator cores in tandem with the factory exchanger in order to basically make a very oddly shaped heat exchanger. It's true there would be some pressure loses with it...but it's nothing a Rule pump in the reservoir and Meziere 136 water pump couldn't fix. At least I think it would've worked

Also, if running a reservoir - you might look into the single pass straight through fuel coolers (they kind of look like a metal tube with fins). Don't remember if there's room under the car for that or not - or what diameter those come in...

What would really help these cars cool is properly sized turbos (for performance, rather than "limo" duty). Also, PTC (I think) used to make a 160* thermostat for these cars...that would help as well.

For short runs, nitrous sprayed over the heat exchanger could help - but with all things nitrous...the bottle runs out. Water meth can also help, but again it's still a bandaid.

240M3SRT

So as far as i can tell besides FormulaZR no one here has a larger heat exchanger over the stock unit? Someone on here mentioned the CL65 H/E is TWICE AS LARGE as ours and is a direct swap. Can anyone confirm this? If so ill call my dealer tomorrow and get pricing. No reason to re-invent the wheel if AMG has already done the hard work.

I built an oversized H/E on my crossfire srt-6 and got my temps down signifigantly. I used a Summit Racing house brand radiator. I put a plate in the middle of one side so that it flowed from the upper left across to the right, down and back across to the lower left(same side inlet and outlet). It was around $150 shipped(plus $50 in mods) and was 4 times larger than stock!

A well known tuner sells their upgraded H/E for $1295. It appears to me from the pics they are using a C&R radiator core and making a few adjustments(inlets, outlets, mounting brackets, etc) so that it will fit our car. I think i can build something similar for $300-400. But once again id like some confirmation on if the CL65 H/E really is twice as large before going any further.

For my purposes i dont think ill ever install a remote reservior, but i would entertain making larger intercoolers. The same tuner mentioned previously charges $5990 for the pair, along with the necessary upgraded intakes. I have a welder/fabricator who can build something similar. I think the price would be well under $2000 for the pair. Aside from my car being down for fitment, testing out which core sizes fit best is when it starts to get pricey.

In defense of the retail pricing mentioned above, from what ive seen quality is second to none, fitment is guaranteed, testing has already been done, and you are paying for a proven bolt-on system. I do however think we can duplicate a similar system for signifigantly less. I would offer up my car to be the Guinea pig if i though there were enough CL600 owners interested in these mods so that i could at least cover the cost of the fabrication and the parts for my own car. However, our cars are rare and on top of that im not sure enough owners would be interested in forking out the cash for these more extensive mods.

What do you guys think?

FormulaZR

That was JayCL600 that said the CL65 HE is twice the size of the stock unit. No need to confirm, if he said it then it's true. BTW - stock HE core dimensions including the "end tanks" are 25"W x 10.5"H x 13/16"T


BTW - to my CL600 brothers, if you have a part number I can price check it for you. I get a discount at the local M-B place...


240M3SRT, I am sending you a PM on the C&R unit. As for intercoolers, they may be pricey, but just get the ones Speedriven makes and be done with it - Trust me.

BTW - you're right about the market for V12TT parts. Even IF every owner bought upgrades, there is so few of the cars in general (compared to something with with the M156 engine).


IF any of you guys want to set the world on fire, let me know what you're budget it. It's *possible* I might still be able to get you set up with a record setting package. You'd be somewhat of a Guinea pig, though.

FormulaZR

Also, if any of you are looking to tinker - I am selling the factory HE from my 600.

FormulaZR

...and another thing - if you move this to the V12TT section that's located HERE; you'll get more info from other seasoned V12TT owners - some who have/are pushing the limits.

1995E320Cab

Just to be clear JAYCL600 said the CL65 HE is 50% larger, I have considered getting one of these BUT the CL65 guys have heat issues also and are looking for larger HE themselves, so it may be better but still not enfu.



I agree we should start a post on COOLING the V12TT in the V12TT section. I'm not the best man for the job but I started one here

https://mbworld.org/forums/m275-v12-...ml#post4902717

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