Why?
#26
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I assume you meant the best handling Mercedes-Benz that has ever been offered in the US.
I'm a big fan of the CLK63 BS, but I am quite certain it will not hold a candle to real sports cars (*cough*Elise), past and present, in terms of handling (regardless of a great 'ring lap time...the 'ring favors power over handling).
I'm a big fan of the CLK63 BS, but I am quite certain it will not hold a candle to real sports cars (*cough*Elise), past and present, in terms of handling (regardless of a great 'ring lap time...the 'ring favors power over handling).
#27
A true "rival" to the M3 would take significant market share, which means competitive in performance and price...the CLK63 BS was never intended to be that car, nor do I foresee MB/AMG trying to compete in that niche...
#28
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111r wouldve been a different story, not taking anything away from the ml
Last edited by AMG_55; 05-25-2007 at 12:33 AM.
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if it was closer to the m3 in price/quantity, it wouldve been the best competitor to the m3 so far
yes?
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No disrepect but the fact that you are mimimizing the importance of this type of suspension for a car you are going to track kinda points out why you can not understand ALL the reasons why this car is so unique.
#32
As I said above, the CLK63 BS was never intended to be that car, nor do I foresee MB/AMG trying to compete in that niche.
Last edited by Alan Smithee; 05-25-2007 at 12:13 PM.
#33
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BMW's answer to the CLK 63 Black will be a M6 CSL. It will be shown at the Frankfurt Auto Show later this year. Horespower wil be 550, more carbon fiber for weight savings, and the debut of BMW's new dual clutch system.
Cheers!!
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no 4000lb car can be a real track car, youd go through brakes and tires at the same rate you use gas
gt3 has adjustable suspension, its 106K$, a much more focused car and on any track where handling, agility>power the clk wont see which way it went.
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so youre saying add more things to the car (rear seat), drop the price and the weight and itll be a competitor to the m3. (transmission point isnt valid b/c the m3 will be offered with a dsg type system)
so what your saying is that its an over weight, over priced (BUT EXCLUSIVE ) mb "answer" to the m3
so you can get all the clk offers, a rear seat and a choice of manual transmission for about 50k less
now im totally lost
isnt that what i was saying in the first place?
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i do know how important adjustable suspension is for real track cars, but lets be honest, how many of these will actually be at tracks on a regular basis?
no 4000lb car can be a real track car, youd go through brakes and tires at the same rate you use gas
gt3 has adjustable suspension, its 106K$, a much more focused car and on any track where handling, agility>power the clk wont see which way it went.
no 4000lb car can be a real track car, youd go through brakes and tires at the same rate you use gas
gt3 has adjustable suspension, its 106K$, a much more focused car and on any track where handling, agility>power the clk wont see which way it went.
I find it hard to compare to any other vehicle, because the other mfg have not set out to do what MB has done and that is to make it a trackable car as well as an every day driver with all the features that MB owners want (which is why it is so heavy). This car was not designed to convert M series or P car owners but to satisfy a niche in its existing customer base hence the limited production. Which they still have to determine if this make sense and if they will do it again. Most P and M car owners do not care about this. I think that is why those who get it take issue with your comparisons not necessarily because you are wrong, but just that it can't really be compared
#37
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First, you must admit most GT3's are not going out the door at $106k it is more like $130k-150k if not more. Also the curb weight once configured with options is mostly likely going to be more like 3200 or more. I think you are right about most of these not being taken to the track which I think is a shame. This is what makes this car so special to the MB customer base. A car you can track and have as a daily driver. I only have a few more track days on my E55 with out having to do some work. My goal was to have a track car and a daily driver, two cars I am easily in the $135k price range. The GT3 is not a daily driver if you cover any regular amount of miles. Also MB had to look at it's customer base and if they had made this car with out all the creature comforts then it would not appeal as much to a "MB buyer". The exclusivity is not the main reason for the price point there was a lot of rework done to the CLK to make it a Black Series and I wish MB would have put more focus on that when they released this car. If you remember the AMG test drive on Speed, the car that Tommy is riding in at the end of the show is CLK 63 Black series.
I find it hard to compare to any other vehicle, because the other mfg have not set out to do what MB has done and that is to make it a trackable car as well as an every day driver with all the features that MB owners want (which is why it is so heavy). This car was not designed to convert M series or P car owners but to satisfy a niche in its existing customer base hence the limited production. Which they still have to determine if this make sense and if they will do it again. Most P and M car owners do not care about this. I think that is why those who get it take issue with your comparisons not necessarily because you are wrong, but just that it can't really be compared
I find it hard to compare to any other vehicle, because the other mfg have not set out to do what MB has done and that is to make it a trackable car as well as an every day driver with all the features that MB owners want (which is why it is so heavy). This car was not designed to convert M series or P car owners but to satisfy a niche in its existing customer base hence the limited production. Which they still have to determine if this make sense and if they will do it again. Most P and M car owners do not care about this. I think that is why those who get it take issue with your comparisons not necessarily because you are wrong, but just that it can't really be compared
Very succinctly stated.
I passed on a GT3 which would have MSRP of 134K. I doubt any M6 Cls will make it to the US. There just isn't any comparison car that you can drive every day in traffic period. This car laid down a 7:45 at the Ring with an automatic! Scoreboard
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when your special car weighs as much as your conv.'s and sedan's then obviously you didnt make it "specialized" enough.
I think you are right about most of these not being taken to the track which I think is a shame. This is what makes this car so special to the MB customer base. A car you can track and have as a daily driver. I only have a few more track days on my E55 with out having to do some work. My goal was to have a track car and a daily driver, two cars I am easily in the $135k price range. The GT3 is not a daily driver if you cover any regular amount of miles. Also MB had to look at it's customer base and if they had made this car with out all the creature comforts then it would not appeal as much to a "MB buyer".
The exclusivity is not the main reason for the price point there was a lot of rework done to the CLK to make it a Black Series and I wish MB would have put more focus on that when they released this car. If you remember the AMG test drive on Speed, the car that Tommy is riding in at the end of the show is CLK 63 Black series.
what rework was done?
from what i know its just a widebody clk63 coupe. all the "extra" cooling etc.. should be a given in ANY AMG (clk 63 conv. in this case) just like they come stock on m and rs cars. maybe then i wouldnt have blown the diff on my clk after a 15min canyon run. the only difference is widebody and suspension. they, unlike m on the new m3, did not go throught the trouble of moving the engine further back to improve balance or anything of the sort.
I find it hard to compare to any other vehicle, because the other mfg have not set out to do what MB has done and that is to make it a trackable car as well as an every day driver with all the features that MB owners want (which is why it is so heavy). This car was not designed to convert M series or P car owners but to satisfy a niche in its existing customer base hence the limited production. Which they still have to determine if this make sense and if they will do it again. Most P and M car owners do not care about this. I think that is why those who get it take issue with your comparisons not necessarily because you are wrong, but just that it can't really be compared
i do agree with some of your points
but then again, why the hell would anyone buy an auto track car
and why cant the gt3 be daily driven?
i think it can, its been written numerous times in various mags that it can and there are people driving them as daily drivers
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yes, i agree, they are not 106k, thats the baser price. but from what i know; the bs base price is 135k, w/o options. so lets say they are the same exact price, which car is more suited to tracking and the occasional daily driving. lets be real, neither of these are going to be anyones daily drivers, the gt3 has a better chance of being a better driver b/c i dont think a person who can only buy one car will for a clk bs, (1)
thats what i dont understand
what rework was done? (2)
but then again, why the hell would anyone buy an auto track car (3)
and why cant the gt3 be daily driven?
i think it can, its been written numerous times in various mags that it can and there are people driving them as daily drivers(4)
thats what i dont understand
what rework was done? (2)
but then again, why the hell would anyone buy an auto track car (3)
and why cant the gt3 be daily driven?
i think it can, its been written numerous times in various mags that it can and there are people driving them as daily drivers(4)
(2) A few paragraphs from a magazine/web article:
Visually, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series clearly shows its descent from the Official F1™ Safety Car: its striking front apron with large cooling intakes, flared wheel arches, diffusor-type rear apron and carbon-fiber airflow breakaway edge, all demonstrate the car’s sporting and pur sang pedigree.
Mercedes-AMG engineers achieved the increase in power to 373 kW/507 hp by completely redesigning the intake and exhaust systems. The high-revving, naturally-aspirated AMG engine, with its 6208 cc displacement, gets its fresh air via larger-dimensioned intake ducts. The new AMG sports exhaust system with full-length twin pipes stands out with its unmistakable, pleasant AMG V8 sound.
Power is transmitted through the AMG SPEEDSHIFT 7G-TRONIC. Compared to the standard CLK 63 AMG, the rear-axle ratio of the pur sang special series has been made about six percent shorter – to confer even more agility in acceleration in all speed ranges. For maximum sporting dynamics, the transmission has only the “M” and “S” driving programs; the comfort-oriented “C” is deleted. The driver can switch between the seven gears by using the AMG aluminum shift paddles on the steering wheel, while an indicator in the instrument cluster shows the gear selected at any given time.
The engine oil cooler is located in the right wheel arch. The cooling measures are complemented by optimized air ducts with lateral openings in real carbon in front of the front wheels. The front fenders are made of high-strength and yet lightweight carbon-fiber composite material.
Like its counterpart in the Formula One World Championship, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series also has a newly developed and quite special AMG sports suspension. The adjustable threaded suspension guarantees optimum road contact and maximum precision. For competitive driving, the driver can create his personal suspension setup: not only the level, but also the compression and rebound stages of the shock absorbers, front-axle track and camber, and rear-axle track are adjustable.
Despite its raceworthy handling, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series retains those typical qualities that distinguish a true Mercedes-Benz: everyday practicality, longevity, safety and quality. Following in the path of the SLK 55 AMG Black Series, the new CLK 63 AMG Black Series was developed in the AMG PERFORMANCE STUDIO opened in 2006. The first units of the unlimited AMG special series will be delivered to customers starting in June.
(There was probably 60% more to this article but I didn't want to over do it here)
(3) How about the possibility of sure shifts resulting in more track consistency?
(4) I had a new 2003 GT2 that I had no problem driving to work and other ventures anytime I wanted with no problems. Now have a 2007 GT3RS and if it wasn't for the fact that I'm lucky enough to own a few other cars, I would be more than happy to drive it numerous times a week with pleasure...... this I agree with you! Magwheel
#40
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You might want to read the comparison before you make the assumption.
Bedford Autodrome's West Circuit is hardly the "Ring" at 1.8 miles. Keep in mind the Brits idolize anything made on their turf. Sharp turn in and poise was easily overcome by brut power and engineering. True it wasn't the top of the line Elise but it still had all the handling prowess of the bigger brother.
Was it an absurd comparison, only if you were a sports car and had a slower lap time than an SUV.
#41
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AMG 55,
Fifty more post and you'll have 4000:eek I have 4000 +laps at Willow Springs raceway so we almost have something in common.
I plan on driving my CLK 63 BS almost everyday and on weekends at track events. You have no clue on the target market for this car so don't make the assumptions. You are obviously not the target market, so go get a GT3 and have fun polishing it in the garage because you don't seem the type who'd dare get a paint chip.
Fifty more post and you'll have 4000:eek I have 4000 +laps at Willow Springs raceway so we almost have something in common.
I plan on driving my CLK 63 BS almost everyday and on weekends at track events. You have no clue on the target market for this car so don't make the assumptions. You are obviously not the target market, so go get a GT3 and have fun polishing it in the garage because you don't seem the type who'd dare get a paint chip.
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AMG 55,
Fifty more post and you'll have 4000:eek I have 4000 +laps at Willow Springs raceway so we almost have something in common.
I plan on driving my CLK 63 BS almost everyday and on weekends at track events. You have no clue on the target market for this car so don't make the assumptions. You are obviously not the target market, so go get a GT3 and have fun polishing it in the garage because you don't seem the type who'd dare get a paint chip.
Fifty more post and you'll have 4000:eek I have 4000 +laps at Willow Springs raceway so we almost have something in common.
I plan on driving my CLK 63 BS almost everyday and on weekends at track events. You have no clue on the target market for this car so don't make the assumptions. You are obviously not the target market, so go get a GT3 and have fun polishing it in the garage because you don't seem the type who'd dare get a paint chip.
rock chips & scratches=battle scars & war wounds
&
07 997S 6spd-current car (all go, f*** show)
you have no clue about who iam so dont make the assumptions. i have 40,000mi in the canyons of la, whats your point?
anyone can go fast on the track, thats what they are for
someone once said "i like how you painted you wheels gunmetal color"
i replied: "thats brake dust"
as long as my car is 100% mechanically and the interior is clean i can care less what it looks like on the outside
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^^^^^
my car has about 250 mi on here, just got it, i was taking it easy
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...665515&q=piuma
my car has about 250 mi on here, just got it, i was taking it easy
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...665515&q=piuma
#44
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(1) Personally, I think that a person who buys a $100K or more sports car would more than likely have another 'more practical' normal car for use in day to day driving needs.
(2) A few paragraphs from a magazine/web article:
Visually, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series clearly shows its descent from the Official F1™ Safety Car: its striking front apron with large cooling intakes, flared wheel arches, diffusor-type rear apron and carbon-fiber airflow breakaway edge, all demonstrate the car’s sporting and pur sang pedigree.
Mercedes-AMG engineers achieved the increase in power to 373 kW/507 hp by completely redesigning the intake and exhaust systems. The high-revving, naturally-aspirated AMG engine, with its 6208 cc displacement, gets its fresh air via larger-dimensioned intake ducts. The new AMG sports exhaust system with full-length twin pipes stands out with its unmistakable, pleasant AMG V8 sound.
Power is transmitted through the AMG SPEEDSHIFT 7G-TRONIC. Compared to the standard CLK 63 AMG, the rear-axle ratio of the pur sang special series has been made about six percent shorter – to confer even more agility in acceleration in all speed ranges. For maximum sporting dynamics, the transmission has only the “M” and “S” driving programs; the comfort-oriented “C” is deleted. The driver can switch between the seven gears by using the AMG aluminum shift paddles on the steering wheel, while an indicator in the instrument cluster shows the gear selected at any given time.
The engine oil cooler is located in the right wheel arch. The cooling measures are complemented by optimized air ducts with lateral openings in real carbon in front of the front wheels. The front fenders are made of high-strength and yet lightweight carbon-fiber composite material.
Like its counterpart in the Formula One World Championship, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series also has a newly developed and quite special AMG sports suspension. The adjustable threaded suspension guarantees optimum road contact and maximum precision. For competitive driving, the driver can create his personal suspension setup: not only the level, but also the compression and rebound stages of the shock absorbers, front-axle track and camber, and rear-axle track are adjustable.
Despite its raceworthy handling, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series retains those typical qualities that distinguish a true Mercedes-Benz: everyday practicality, longevity, safety and quality. Following in the path of the SLK 55 AMG Black Series, the new CLK 63 AMG Black Series was developed in the AMG PERFORMANCE STUDIO opened in 2006. The first units of the unlimited AMG special series will be delivered to customers starting in June.
(There was probably 60% more to this article but I didn't want to over do it here)
(3) How about the possibility of sure shifts resulting in more track consistency?
(4) I had a new 2003 GT2 that I had no problem driving to work and other ventures anytime I wanted with no problems. Now have a 2007 GT3RS and if it wasn't for the fact that I'm lucky enough to own a few other cars, I would be more than happy to drive it numerous times a week with pleasure...... this I agree with you! Magwheel
(2) A few paragraphs from a magazine/web article:
Visually, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series clearly shows its descent from the Official F1™ Safety Car: its striking front apron with large cooling intakes, flared wheel arches, diffusor-type rear apron and carbon-fiber airflow breakaway edge, all demonstrate the car’s sporting and pur sang pedigree.
Mercedes-AMG engineers achieved the increase in power to 373 kW/507 hp by completely redesigning the intake and exhaust systems. The high-revving, naturally-aspirated AMG engine, with its 6208 cc displacement, gets its fresh air via larger-dimensioned intake ducts. The new AMG sports exhaust system with full-length twin pipes stands out with its unmistakable, pleasant AMG V8 sound.
Power is transmitted through the AMG SPEEDSHIFT 7G-TRONIC. Compared to the standard CLK 63 AMG, the rear-axle ratio of the pur sang special series has been made about six percent shorter – to confer even more agility in acceleration in all speed ranges. For maximum sporting dynamics, the transmission has only the “M” and “S” driving programs; the comfort-oriented “C” is deleted. The driver can switch between the seven gears by using the AMG aluminum shift paddles on the steering wheel, while an indicator in the instrument cluster shows the gear selected at any given time.
The engine oil cooler is located in the right wheel arch. The cooling measures are complemented by optimized air ducts with lateral openings in real carbon in front of the front wheels. The front fenders are made of high-strength and yet lightweight carbon-fiber composite material.
Like its counterpart in the Formula One World Championship, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series also has a newly developed and quite special AMG sports suspension. The adjustable threaded suspension guarantees optimum road contact and maximum precision. For competitive driving, the driver can create his personal suspension setup: not only the level, but also the compression and rebound stages of the shock absorbers, front-axle track and camber, and rear-axle track are adjustable.
Despite its raceworthy handling, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series retains those typical qualities that distinguish a true Mercedes-Benz: everyday practicality, longevity, safety and quality. Following in the path of the SLK 55 AMG Black Series, the new CLK 63 AMG Black Series was developed in the AMG PERFORMANCE STUDIO opened in 2006. The first units of the unlimited AMG special series will be delivered to customers starting in June.
(There was probably 60% more to this article but I didn't want to over do it here)
(3) How about the possibility of sure shifts resulting in more track consistency?
(4) I had a new 2003 GT2 that I had no problem driving to work and other ventures anytime I wanted with no problems. Now have a 2007 GT3RS and if it wasn't for the fact that I'm lucky enough to own a few other cars, I would be more than happy to drive it numerous times a week with pleasure...... this I agree with you! Magwheel
i know all the changes you list, my whole point is that most of them, all the mechanical ones, infact, should already come stock on all AMG cars, like they do on m cars and rs cars. the coolers, ducts etc... just the suspension and body (widebody and cf parts) are special. imo
you own a gt3 rs
you know how different it is from a regular 997 and even a gt3, its an entirely different body shell, the fuel tank is moved etc.... there are many weight saving measures.....
there are no such "extreme" steps taken in converting a regular clk into a black series, thats my whole point. they have to charge that much for it becuase the regular clk63 is alredy over priced, thats the only logical explanation i guess.
it sure looks sick as **** though , congrats, looks amazing in white w/ the contrasting carbon fiber
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AMG 55,
Fifty more post and you'll have 4000:eek I have 4000 +laps at Willow Springs raceway so we almost have something in common.
I plan on driving my CLK 63 BS almost everyday and on weekends at track events. You have no clue on the target market for this car so don't make the assumptions. You are obviously not the target market, so go get a GT3 and have fun polishing it in the garage because you don't seem the type who'd dare get a paint chip.
Fifty more post and you'll have 4000:eek I have 4000 +laps at Willow Springs raceway so we almost have something in common.
I plan on driving my CLK 63 BS almost everyday and on weekends at track events. You have no clue on the target market for this car so don't make the assumptions. You are obviously not the target market, so go get a GT3 and have fun polishing it in the garage because you don't seem the type who'd dare get a paint chip.
my daily driven 997S (10,000 mi in 5 months or so) is running COMPLETELY unmuffled for weight saving reasons, although the music it sings is beautiful and is definitely a bonus
here is what it sounds like
http://mymbonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1656
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPKeyOQvAO4
goodnight
#47
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"anyone can go fast on the track, thats what they are for"
You just proved my point which was made by anology.
I don't know you and if your driving like you say through the caynons, I probably won't get an opportunity.
You just proved my point which was made by anology.
I don't know you and if your driving like you say through the caynons, I probably won't get an opportunity.
#48
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[QUOTE=AMG_55;2227500]why is the clk black series so expensive?
basically mb built a real rival to the m3 and audi rs4 (this time). it has NOTHING extraordinary on it, cf interior, the others have (option), widebody... check, better handling than the regular models..check, i believe none of them "improve" on the weight of the regular model, the transmission is regular 5spd auto with quicker shifts, there is nothing special about it, you can effectively take a clk63coupe (or even vert w/ a hardtop) and build yourself a clk63 black. i think they are just milking the clk dtm for what its worth, that car was a real "specialty car". the only thing that sets the BS ( ) apart from the others is price and a few cf exterior bits, the others go through all the same processes in becomeming "specialty" cars of their respectable makers.
before you guys say power, m6 (has a cf roof too and less $)
Building one of these babies in the backyard would be easier said than done. To start, those are nine inch rims up front. Impossilbe to just bolt that on. Once you start rebuilding the fenders you quickly get into styling and quality issues. The suspension is all different as well. Yes, you could do the coil-overs yourself, but doing it right is neither cheap nor easy. AMG has also provided auxilliary coolers for, IIRC, the engine and power steering oil. And let's not forget true forged wheels all around. That alone justfies a healthy bump. Uprated brakes are also an expensive mod for the DIYer.
The price for all this is high, but that's because the price for a base CLK63 is already high compared to its competitors. The base car gives you a SOTA engine and a seven (not 5) speed transmisison. But no manual shifter option and less power per ton than, say, a Z06 means that that Black Clack is going to be a hard sell. The graphite bits are pure art. But time will tell if they can even move 350 of them, despite the pent up demand created by not importing the regular 63 coupe. Aside from the price, too many people like you just don't understand this car.
basically mb built a real rival to the m3 and audi rs4 (this time). it has NOTHING extraordinary on it, cf interior, the others have (option), widebody... check, better handling than the regular models..check, i believe none of them "improve" on the weight of the regular model, the transmission is regular 5spd auto with quicker shifts, there is nothing special about it, you can effectively take a clk63coupe (or even vert w/ a hardtop) and build yourself a clk63 black. i think they are just milking the clk dtm for what its worth, that car was a real "specialty car". the only thing that sets the BS ( ) apart from the others is price and a few cf exterior bits, the others go through all the same processes in becomeming "specialty" cars of their respectable makers.
before you guys say power, m6 (has a cf roof too and less $)
Building one of these babies in the backyard would be easier said than done. To start, those are nine inch rims up front. Impossilbe to just bolt that on. Once you start rebuilding the fenders you quickly get into styling and quality issues. The suspension is all different as well. Yes, you could do the coil-overs yourself, but doing it right is neither cheap nor easy. AMG has also provided auxilliary coolers for, IIRC, the engine and power steering oil. And let's not forget true forged wheels all around. That alone justfies a healthy bump. Uprated brakes are also an expensive mod for the DIYer.
The price for all this is high, but that's because the price for a base CLK63 is already high compared to its competitors. The base car gives you a SOTA engine and a seven (not 5) speed transmisison. But no manual shifter option and less power per ton than, say, a Z06 means that that Black Clack is going to be a hard sell. The graphite bits are pure art. But time will tell if they can even move 350 of them, despite the pent up demand created by not importing the regular 63 coupe. Aside from the price, too many people like you just don't understand this car.
#49
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we were talking about a car, then someone has to go and mention how many laps they have around a track, like that makes a difference to anything we're talking about. i understand though, when people run out of things to say, they usually change the subject and make it personal. ive seen it before anf im sure this aint the last im gonna see it
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thats what makes it fun
you **** up you die
on a track, you **** up and more than likely the worst case is you kiss the barriers. where is the fun in that.
btw,
it was you who changed the subject to something that has nothing to do with my original question/this topic