AMG_55

why is the clk black series so expensive?

basically mb built a real rival to the m3 and audi rs4 (this time). it has NOTHING extraordinary on it, cf interior, the others have (option), widebody... check, better handling than the regular models..check, i believe none of them "improve" on the weight of the regular model, the transmission is regular 5spd auto with quicker shifts, there is nothing special about it, you can effectively take a clk63coupe (or even vert w/ a hardtop) and build yourself a clk63 black. i think they are just milking the clk dtm for what its worth, that car was a real "specialty car". the only thing that sets the BS ( ) apart from the others is price and a few cf exterior bits, the others go through all the same processes in becomeming "specialty" cars of their respectable makers.
before you guys say power, m6 (has a cf roof too and less $)


btw, the new c63 (yes a regular c class) will have the EXACT same front suspension from the clk black, wider track and fully adjustable.

Schiznick

Great opinions from a 24 year old that has never driven the car.....

Your "research" and "conclusions" appear to be frought with mistakes.

In the press materials, the Black Series has never been positioned against the RS4 or M3. These cars are not in the same league as the Black Series are.

If you wanted to compare a M3 CSL to a Black Series you may be on a better track.

Nothing "extraordinary on it"..... The cars has all sorts of trick components on it that are different than the standard CLK63. Front and rear suspension, brakes, differential, oil coolers, trans coolers, diff coolers, exhaust, gear ratios, lightweight body work, and wheels to name a few.

By the way, it has a 7 speed not a 5 speed.

While weight is certainly an issue, it is not the only factor in this. All of the parts added to this car to make it handle add weight that are offset by some of the lightweight components. You may have heard 4200 lbs but everything published says just under 4000.

I am sure all of your combined track experience (one day at the AMG Challenge?) prepares you to have an educated opinion on this car.

Everyone that drove it at the press event a week ago seems to think differently. They have all been posting opinions online and they seem to be very good

Some of the descriptions of the Black Series have likened it to an evolution of the CLK DTM suspension. While it is certainly not the DTM it would appear to perform very well. One quote that I read online had the Black Series lapping the north loop within seconds of a GT3.

Could you build a Black series from a CLK63, yes for about 135K.

C63, exact suspension..... similar perhaps.

Once someone on this board actually gets to drive a Black Series instead of just looking at one, perhaps we will have some informed opinions.

Ciao,

Schiz

Germancar1

The C63 AMG definitely won't have this:

For competitive driving, the driver can create his personal suspension setup: not only the level, but also the compression and rebound stages of the shock absorbers, front-axle track and camber, and rear-axle track are adjustable.

M

Alan Smithee

- Coil-over suspension...can't think of another production car short of an exotic that has this as standard equipment. Costs ~$5k to buy and install a PSS9 or similar suspension, it still wasn't engineered for the car, and isn't warranteed.

- Ceramic brakes...can't think of another production car that has these as standard equipment. It's a $8-15k option on those that have them available.

- Forged wheels...very few cars have them as standard equipment...typically a ~$3k option on cars with them available, or ~$4-5k for aftermarket.

- Carbon fiber body kit. Good luck finding one and having it properly installed...would cost ~$10k if you could.

- Sport seat with airbags...no other MB has them, so they aren't cheap. Similar aftermarket seats without airbags are ~$3.5k.

- Aforementioned tranny, oil, diff coolers and engineering to have them work properly...$$$$

- You have to pay for exclusivity, too.

spr

Does it really have ceramic brakes? I thought they were called composite which MB means is that they're floating on an alum. hat.

Even if it has ceramic brakes I hope they didn't make the mistake ala Porsche with the Gen. 1's with the cracking issues-

Schiznick

They are composite: steel rotors with an aluminum hat....

Schiznick

Alan touched on a very important topic.

FULL WARRANTY!!!!!

A drivable track car with a full MB warranty!

AMG_55

and that matters because
i never said drove like ****, or its excellent to drive, just making observations based on what the car comes with/goes up against
and the fact that im 24 surely has nothing to with it, its ok though, ive heard the before, im used to it

thats not just my research, thats what all the mags that matter (european, american mags have been going downhill since c van tune bounced from motor trend, or whatever happened to him , i really enjoyed reading his stories etc..) said

true, but wasnt that car actually lighter than the production version, cant remember exactly

correct, and the m3 (and rs4 to a lesser extent) has all those except adjustable suspension. a "specialty" motor that isnt available ON ANY OTHER BMW (R8 will have rs4 v8), at least for the near future

i ****ed up, was thinking of the shifter and they are similar on both the black and dtm, the dtm had a 5 speed (for me, not u)

weight is a HUGE issue when it comes to any performance car
4000lbs for a company's most hardcore (slk blk not inc., not available) is
that imo of course


and this has what to do w/ the equipment the car comes with

yes, b/c they are used to mb's that can't handle worth ****, i can see how this car is a revelation and a step in the right direction, my whole point is the price, not how it drives, I NEVER SAID ITS A BAD CAR

gt3 has roughly 100 les hp and much less tq, it wouldve been a shame if it didnt, wouldnt it?

not considering how slow the clk 63 sales are
100,000 $ c class conv

EXACT front suspension from the clk black, fully adjustable, same exact track etc... EXACTLY THE SAME THING (source- Autocar, sure they know better than you )

as i said before, my opinions have nothing to do with how it drives, just how much it costs compared to its TRUE competitors (even if you disagree that m3 and rs4 are its competitors, you surely see the gt3 @ 106,000$ as its competitor, no?)

take care

AMG_55

Alan Smithee

Hmmm...spr, you may be right about that. The F1 pace car has ceramics, so I assumed 'composite' was the same thing on the street car...after all, the second 'C' in Porsche's PCCB is for 'composite'. Misleading on the part of MB/AMG if they are just floating rotors.

Regardless, with 6-piston front calipers, it's a very stout braking system that would cost $6k+ to install on a regular CLK.

Edit: By the way, spr, did you used to have a W202 AMG? I think you test-drove my E46 M3 years ago.

AMG_55

you can take any p, m, rs.... to the track too

AMG_55

i thought they were regular 030 brakes too

Jim Brady

Don't forget to add the uprated engine oil cooler, transmission cooler and the power steering cooler.
Limited slip diff
2.8" wider rear track requires different axels and carrirers.
Reinforced rear drive for track use.
The suspension is totally adjustable with a 17mm socket set
This car carries a warrantee even if you use it on the track.

If you've ever raced and tried to make a street car live on the track you'd appreciate whats involved. This car is a bargin.
It ran a 7:45 at the Ring. Walter Rohrl did a 7:42 in a GT3 with R tires. I'm so tired of whinning internet experts who know the price of everthing and the cost of nothing.

AMG_55

i thought pccb was porsche carbon ceramic brakes

AMG_55

as i said, the m3 has everything different that this car has (except sus.lets say $5k, in reality its 3) from regular 3 series' plus a special motor.


z06's and skylines have the same type of warranty.


im spo tired of people bending over just cause its mb

Blue_Monster

I agree with AMG 55
At the end of the day, The GT3 is a better track performer for less money.
I saw the CLK black @ the challenge. Yes, its a beautiful car, but I know for a fact that you can do all those things done to it with a regular CLK 63 for less money. As far as Exclusivity, if you make your own version of the Black Series out of a regular CLK63, That will be far more exclusive than the CLK63 black.

Alan Smithee

http://www.porsche.com/pccb/default.asp?market=PCGB

Alan Smithee

You're right, it would be far more exclusive...since there is no such thing as a CLK63 coupe in the US market to start with.

AMG_55

thanks


****, i want em on my997

Alan Smithee

To the CLK63 Black Series detractors, understand this: The current CLK platform is in its final year until the new C-class coupe debuts, probably sometime in late 2008 for the 2009 model year. It is very common for a manufacturer to introduce a special version of a 'lame duck' model to keep interest high thorugh the end of the model run. The CLK63 BS is unique in that it has already been highlighted as the F1 pace car the last couple seasons, so engineering and interest has already been established for the car. MB chose minimal supply and high pricing to make this 'halo' car available to the public and (not unlike F1 sponsorship) to provide brand awareness more so than be a Porsche competitor in the sports car market.

Even though they both have two doors and are built in Germany, the M3 is a completely different car with a completely different mission for a very different car company.

Schiznick

So are you the sister, cousin, uncle, wife or brother of AMG 55?

Schiznick

Why don't we wait and see how the M3 performs against the Black Series.

Did you really think you were going to spout off about something you really don't know about without having to endure some criticism.

It's not just becuase it is a MB.

Someday when you mature, you might be able to appreciate some cars for what they represent in addition to how they read on paper or how the look parked.

We can all go find cheaper cars that perform at a higher level than any of the cars that have been discussed.

The same reasons that I appreciate the GT3RS allows me to appreciate what AMG has done with the CLK63 Black Series.

For me it is not about Audi vs Mercedes vs. BMW vs or any other brand. In case you forgot, this is a MB board and you are posting in the AMG section.

For me, the CLK63 Black Series being offered in the US represents AMG listening to its customers. When the SKK55 Black Series was not offered, many of us were ticked. The CLK63 Black Series will probably be the best handling production car (real production, 300+ units) that has even been offered in the US.

AMG clearly knows how to build incredible performance cars... CLK GTR, CLK DTM. The fact that this car has been pacing Formula 1, I tend to believe that the Black Series will perform fairly well.....

If you want to minimize the engineering that went into the Black Series and Mercedes vehicles over price, then so be it.

The Black Series should be one of the best daily drivers that can actually handle an afternoon lapping day without melting down.

If you don't like the car, don't buy it. The fact that you compare it to an M3 saying it has all the same parts is laughable!

Oh, and since when were skylines sold in the US with a factory warranty?

My garage is not limited to AMG's only my discussions in the AMG forums.

I even paid for all of them with my own money.

Cheers!

Schiz

Blue_Monster

Alan Smithee

I assume you meant the best handling Mercedes-Benz that has ever been offered in the US.

I'm a big fan of the CLK63 BS, but I am quite certain it will not hold a candle to real sports cars (*cough*Elise), past and present, in terms of handling (regardless of a great 'ring lap time...the 'ring favors power over handling).

Schiznick

Yes, I was speaking of Mercedes-Benz cars!

AMG_55

look, im not into arguin on the internet, everyone has their own opinions
so im not gonna quote reply etc....

im just upset that finally mb built a real rival to the m3 and had the chance to take the top spot from it (i dont think that can be argued, but on here you never know ) and they went and screwed it up by pricing the car way out of reach of "regular" people and up against cars such as the gt3rs which are WAY more specialized.

i have nothing against the car, i think its a great step in the right direction for mb and amg (although i would prefer a manual option) and hope they make more focused model in the future. the only thing that bothers me is their marketing strategy w/ this car, thats it. (well, and the weight too )

glad we can have an interesting discussion without name calling etc...

ill pretend this was never said , i know me better than anyone and thats just aint me, i dont blabber away without knowing things. i appreciate many cars, slow, fast, expesive, dirt chep, i dont care, as long as they're special. nsx, 124 500 (my 1st car), e30 m....
"Someday when you mature, you might be able to appreciate some cars for what they represent in addition" "spout off about something you really don't know about "