AMGOODNESS

nice fleet jrcart. i dont know you or anyone on this forum. but what i do know is that someone who owns a lot of high performance cars usually has a more than average understanding of them as well. it sort of comes with the territory. cool out a little norb.

oh, this is an open forum. this section is about and for the black series. as long as peoples post are about that car why should they not get an opinion. the black series owners in this forum are commenting about the 997TT which they dont own so what is the difference.

both are bad *** cars on paper and probably very different to drive. i have always wanted a porsche for the novelty of it but i would buy the BS over any porsche because of the performance and practicality.

norb

You missed out on jrcarts true colors. He posted some crazy stuff and then deleted them. Too bad no one quoted him or you wouldn't think so highly of him. Let me summarize his deleted posts: Money can't buy class.

ET550

[QUOTE=Addicted2Speed;2660080]IMO, for that money, a perfect car is SL65. Get an ecu tune and it will destroy any 997TT or CLK63BS while offering a much more comfortable driving experience (not to mention its also a hardtop convertible).


Destroy them where? on a dyno? The SL65 has more horsepower than it can handle as it is so you want to waste more money on an ecu tune. Unless you are throwing alot of money into the suspension, I don't think an SL65 is destroying those cars on the track.

jrcart

HERE WE GO AGAIN NORB.........I WANT EVERYONE TO SEE WHO THREW THE FIRST STONE HERE (see above). YOU JUST CAN'T GO PEACEFULLY CAN YOU? DIGGING UP STUFF FROM 2 WEEKS AGO! MAYBE NOBODY QUOTED ME BECAUSE THEY ALL AGREED WITH MY OPINION, DID YOU EVER CONSIDER THAT? NORB, IT IS OBVIOUS THAT YOU ARE A SORRY EXCUSE FOR A PERSON, YOU HAVE ZERO KNOWLEDGE OF MOST ANY TOPICS YOU CHIME IN ON. WHAT, IN NORB'S WORLD PEOPLE THAT SPEAK THEIR MINDS HAVE NO CLASS? IN NORB'S WORLD, PEOPLE THAT DON'T AGREE WITH NORB HAVE NO CLASS!

NORB, IF HAVING CLASS MEANS BELIEVING IN YOUR OPINIONS, I HOPE I'M THE MOST CLASSLESS, WHITE TRASH'IEST GUY ON HERE!

ONE MORE THING, THE UNIVERSITY OF HOUSTON CALLED; THEY WANT YOU TO STOP USING THEIR BANNER AS YOUR SIGNATURE, THEY SAY IT IS GIVING THE UNIVERSITY A BAD NAME! THEY DON'T WANT OTHERS KNOWING THEY LET A BAD APPLE (i.e. IDIOT) SOMEHOW SLIP THROUGH THE CRACKS.

WHERE SHOULD I MAIL THE CERTIFIED CHECK FOR $.25, SO YOU CAN BUY YOURSELF A BETTER LIFE?

norb

Hey don't let little old me bother you, Mr. "I'm the richest guy on MBWorld". You're hilarious. I guess money can't buy class nor can it buy you self confidence.

jrcart

NORB....DO YOU HAVE AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX? WHEN DID I SAY OR EVEN IMPLY THAT I WAS THE " RICHEST GUY ON MBWORLD"? DON'T GO TRYING TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD. YOU HAVE SOME REAL ISSUES MY FRIEND! ARE YOU AN O.F.F., OR B.A.? DO YOU KNOW WHAT EITHER OF THOSE ARE? YOU KEEP BRINGING UP MONEY AND WEALTH. DO I SENSE A HINT OF JELOUSY IN YOU WORDS? YA, THAT MUST BE WHAT IT IS. OH, DID YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT O.F.F., AND B.A. MEAN YET? I'LL HELP YOUR DUMB A_S OUT I GUESS!

O.F.F: OVER FINANCED F_CKER

B.A.: BROKE A_S

I CAN SIT HERE ALL DAY AND SLING SH_T WITH YOU, I DON'T HAVE A JOB. BRING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!REMEMBER WHO STARTED THIS ONE FOLKS!
ALL YOU KEEP SAYING IS "MONEY CAN'T BUY CLASS"! WELL GUESS WHAT IT CAN BUY ANYTHING ELSE, AND CLASS DOESN'T PAY THE BILLS, DOES IT?

norb

Nuff said.

jrcart

And your point is?

norb

Exactly.

jrcart

Exactly What??? NORB are you getting tired of yourself yet? Your intelectual skills are mind boggling. Now did you attend the University of Houston, or were you a lab rat in the science department? Are one a two word replies the best you can muster? Cat got your tongue? Come on brother....Mr. Negative....you have to be able to come up with something better than that! I am looking at all your posts and I read nothing but negative, sarcastic comments made by you aimed towards others. So whos the bad guy?

norb

Nuff said.

SteveL

As entertaining as the previous posts have been...

I think the CLK BS, while a step in the right direction, isn't special enough justify the premium MB is asking for it. I also don't believe that the R8 is worth the kind of money Audi is asking for it. Maybe with a V10 but not with the same lump as in the RS4. But back the CLK... there are some nice improvements over the regular CLK63 but compared to the CLK DTM it falls a little short. Even with the SLK BS, they at least gave the engine a little more output, 400 vs 355. Even if they had managed to get the CLK BS to be a few hundred pounds lighter than a regular CLK/63, as the GT2 is 320 lbs lighter than the 997TT, it would help justify the $50K premium over a CLK63.

And considering the CLK63 BS is $135K, I'm concerned that the SL BS will be absolutely ridiculously expensive, probably more than $200K.

There is no question the CLK DTM is special, just awesome. But with the SLK BS, CLK BS, and likely the SL BS, I think MB is really exploiting the fact that some people just have too much money.

ET550

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and perceived value is relative. Your opinion might be more valuable if you actually had driven the cars which you are discussing in which case you would understand that the real difference between the regular CLK 63 and the CLK BS has nothing to do with the actual number of horsepower, but what you can actually do with it. And compared to what tuners such as Renntech charge for modifications to these cars, or some of the other similarly priced vehicles (AM Vantage, 997tt) the premium seems justified. And I don't understand how the CLK DTM is special and awesome in your opinion for the price but the CLK BS (which in your opinion falls a little short) is neither.

JDB

Steve,

I think if you get the chance to actually drive a CLK63 Black Series, you will readily appreciate how radically different this car is from a CLK63. I even had the opportunity to drive a CLK63 supplied by AMG for my use at the Nurburgring, and there just is no comparison between the two models. The cars feel and drive entirely different. The suspension and brakes on the CLK63 Black Series are superior to all of the other AMG's that I have driven (and this includes a fair amount of time in SLK55 Black Series cars at Spa in Belgium and at Ascari Race Resort in Spain). I cannot sing the praises of this car enough.

Acceleration is one thing, but the handling and braking of the CLK63 Black Series are its outstanding attributes, for me.

JDB

jrcart

Dude, I'm going to be the first one to call you out. Believe me I am all for people voicing their opinions, everyone on here knows I am not shy about voicing mine.

How can you make a statement that the CLK BS is not special enough to have a $50K premium, and then the next thing out of your mouth it that the DTM is???? A DTM goes for nearly $200K! A CLK BS is rated at 500HP and the DTM is rated at 574HP, everyone knows that on a dyno the DTM's are only making in the ball park of 445HP vs CLK BS 420HP at the wheels. So you are saying that the extra 25 HP you get with the BS over a standard CLK 63 Cabrio is not worth $50,000, but the extra 25 HP you get with the DTM is????? In addition to the extra 25HP you get in the BS you get lots of extra goodies that you can't get in a standard CLK 63. How many extra goodies does the the DTM offer over the BS? Not many!

You say the CLK BS is heavy, It's 26 pounds heavier than the DTM 3880 vs 3854! All of the specs I have read show the CLK BS out braking the DTM by 5-8 feet fom 60-0. the only legit arguement you can make is that the DTM is more rare 100 or so copies vs 500 BS's.

My last point will be made in a week when I pick my car up from Evosport. For well under $200k I will have a car that will smoke a DTM CLK, in a straight line or on a road course and it's nearly as rare. How many CLK BS's have you seen on the road? Does anyone out there with a DTM want to try to prove me wrong? I'm up for the challenge.

jrcart

I guess I got so long winded two of you beat me to the punch!

JDB

I think that the new price of a DTM was more like €200,000+ not dollars. There was one available used at Canepa in Scotts Valley, CA last year, and they were asking $500K U.S. for it. I did a little Google search at the time and found some used CLK-DTM's listed in Europe (so obviously not "Federalized", and therefore not legal for use on U.S. roads) for approximately $275K. Haven't checked them out recently. They are quick and impressive vehicles, though.

JDB

ET550

Thats okay. You provided the much needed details some of us are too lazy to type.

NY C32

When did they (MBWorld) change the Terms of Use that requires a member to have an MB to join and then only post in their car category. Can an AMG owner post in a non-AMG thread? What kind of engine does an Off-Topic have anyway?

You said it best in your last statement

Jim Brady

SteveL,
Don't mean to jump on the band wagon but I've raced against CLK DTM's in my CLK 63 Black so I have some first hand experience on how the two compare. First, the CLK DTM's were 230,000 Eruos in Germany. Thats about $300K in dollars. Some guys paid a little more to get the exclusive limited production car. Second, the Black's quicker on some of the shorter tracks due to the KW suspension which is state of the art. The F1 Safety cars will be getting the KW suspension this year. The DTM's superior power edges out the Black on the high speed tracks like Spa and there is no denying with a 200 mph they are potent weapon on the autobahn and track.

I don't know if you've ever tried to build a track worthy car, but bolting on after market parts is not engineering. I think that's what your missing is the devil is in the details and that's why is just cost more. Not many cars will hold up to the track conditions and have the poise that the Black has on the street.
Jimmy

SteveL

The one I looked was 1 of the 12 that were 625 hp from the factory and had 200 miles on it. Here is a link: http://www.canepa.com/inventory/coll...DTM/index.html. It was completely awesome. It comes with all the documentation from AMG that the car was made for Bruce Canepa. Federalized, they are asking $425K. Maybe they'll have to take less. You have first hand experience on a track against one so I'll have to take you at your word. The DTM should have a very significant weight advantage over the BS. The guy at Canepa I talked to said it weighed significantly under 3000 lbs which would give it a big advantage on a track. The BS is no doubt better for the street but with an adjustable suspension, big weight advantage, additional power, I would think the DTM driven by the same driver would be quicker.

chiphomme

Here's the ultimate CLK


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XywJQZf5vm0

jrcart

I think the guy at Canepa needs to find a new career, I just spent the last 45 minutes on-line researching the CLK DTM and found no model ever produced that weighed "significantly under 3000 lbs", if he has one I would buy it, because it is indeed a rare one! Did you pop the hood to see if it had an engine? The lightest figure I could find for a road going DTM CLK was 3845 lbs. The stripped down actual DTM race cars weigh in the neighborhood of 2500, and that link you posted is not a race car.

Another thing, I was wrong about the price of the DTM, the actual list price in 2004 was over $250,000, so now you are looking at a $100,000 premium over the Black Series...still think it's worth it?

SteveL

That is what the guy quoted. In fact I thought he actually said 2500 lbs but maybe he was confused about the race car vs the CLK DTM car. I didn't happen to have a scale with me and yes it did have an engine.

Yes, I think absolutely believe the CLK DTM is worth the premium. Apparently the BS is not because you can already find them for less than $135K. I'm not the only one who thinks they are not worth the premium or they would be going for more. Heck, the R8 is much more difficult to find going for less the MSRP, even with some miles on it. I think the BS is a great car but simply not worth the $50K premium. Maybe with some more power, an SMG or dual clutch tranny or even the new transmission updated SL. The market price for the car ultimately will decide whether it is worth it or not. If it falls below 135K, then I think my argument has merit, if it is at 135K or higher, then I'll certainly admit that the car is worth the premium.

I guess I can't expect too much objectivity on a BS forum. Clearly you all think the car is worth it but just because you do, it doesn't mean others have to. Like I said, I also don't think the R8 is worth what Audi is asking for it. It does sometimes happen that cars are excessively priced. Look at the CL65. An 06 CL65 that went for $186K is now going for considerable less at auction. Well less than $100.

Jim Brady

SteveL,
Thanks for the link. I think Canepa is puffing a bit. I can tell you that a CLK DTM doesn't weigh 800 lbs. less than a Black. The ROW Blacks have almost the same interior so I don't know where AMG is saving the weight. Although you can do some one off stuff at the AMG studio now, it wasn't open in 2004How do you verify the one of twelve at 625 hp claim. If there was a news release or legit, the gum shoes on these boards would have found it somewhere. The five cars delivered to the US had to be privateers, not though the authorized dealer network. Ask him about the warrantee and where was it delivered. But the real tip off for BS and I don't mean Black is the 0-60 in 3 seconds.