jrcart

Like I said, the guy at Capela needs to find another career. If he mixed up the specs on a street legal CLK DTM with an actual DTM CLK race car he's an idiot. That would be like a salesmen at a Chevy dealer saying the 2008 Chevy Impala SS on the showroom floor has 700HP, and it's just like Jeff Gordon's Nascar Impala has. But, I understand you just posted what was incorrectly quoted to you and I can't hold that against you.

I still, for the life of me can't figure how you could rationalize $250,000+ for a DTM and think a Black Series is not worth the price. I agree with you on the Audi R8, I think it is a beautiful car, but it is in dire need of an additional 100hp. The scary part is that people are paying $25,000 over list for R8's. As for the CL you saw at auction, the 06 was the old body, the O7 CL 65's are fetching sticker and above in some markets.

JDB

In case you are interested, here are the specifications for the road-going CLK DTM Mercedes-AMG Coupe.

"Weight ready for driving* 1,742 kg"
"*per EU guidlines 92/21 with driver (88 kg), tank filled to 90% and luggage (7 kg)"

So starting with the 1,742 kg = 3,840 lbs., you should deduct the included weights of the 150 lb driver, 127 lbs of fuel, 15 lbs of luggage. This will net out at about 3,550 lbs dry.

Rated horsepower per AMG 582, torque 800 Nm = 590 ft. lbs.

Personal observation. The road-going CLK-DTM's that were at the Nurburgring event would FLY past the regular CLK63 coupe that I was driving on a long uphill pull on the backside of the Nordschleiffe. I was driving in a straight line, getting all I could out of this coupe, and they would blast by at at least 30 mph faster, and continuing accelerating uphill, until they disappeared from view. And, this CLK63 was not a slow car by any means, on the long front straight, I was clocking 270 kph (165 mph in round numbers), but there was just no contest between these two vehicles. The CLK-DTM is truly in a different performance class.

There is also the prototype AMG P900, which is even a step above the CLK-DTM, but still not a true DTM car.

Final note, just so there is no confusion. The CLK-DTM is a model of a road-going Mercedes-AMG. A true DTM is a purpose-built race car that is a true state of the art racing vehicle. It has virtually nothing in common with any production car with the exception of a small section of the roof which by the racing rules must come from a production car. I presume at one time, this regulation made sense, but since I don't know the evolution of the rule, it seems like a very strange requirement. The DTM's are crazy wonderful cars.

JDB

SteveL

Jim, he may have been buffing a bit but I think Canepa is pretty reputable. It was a Saturday and I was driving back form looking at a GT2 on Santa Cruz and I stopped by. Very cool place. Lots of vintage race and road cars. I asked to see the CLK DTM car and they took me in the back and I looked at it. It was very cool. The guy I talked to was somewhat knowledgeable about the car. He said that they had full documentation from AMG about the car. He said of the 100 cars built, 12 of them had 625 hp. I asked him how much it weighed and he said 2500 lbs but of course there was no way I could verify it while there and I didn't look it up when I got back. Considering the interior, I thought it didn't seem too unreasonable but I was surprised when he said 2500. When I asked him the price, he said $425 and I knew it was out of my price range. $200K and I would have bought without thinking about it but of course I would have verified everything he said including the documentation of the car. He said you could buy them from Europe for $300K but they are not federalized, which he said costs $75K, and they would have miles on them. This one only had about 200 miles on it. I didn't ask about warranty or anything like they. They are trying to sell it as a collector car.

It was kind of funny because I went to Germany a couple of years ago and visited the AMG factory. They were working on the convertible version of the CLK DTM car their customization shop. My tour guide said that they build 100 CLK DTM road cars and they were all sold and they were now working on the convertible version and we were looking at cars #66 and #67. She said for the hardtop CLK DTM car that there was 1 customer from the US, California. I wouldn't be surprised if she was talking about the Capena car.

ET550

Unfortunately your analysis is completely flawed. To say that the BS is not worth the premium over a regular CLK 63 because some cars may be sold for less than $135k fails to take into account the even larger discounts being offered on the regular CLK 63, which means the premium being paid is actually higher. And to say a car is not worth the price because it is worth significantly less than MSRP in 2 years is also a ridiculous statement because in that case there are very few if any new cars worth buying except for certain Ferraris if you are lucky enough to get them at MSRP. Objectively speaking of course.

SteveL

Agree 100%. The R8 with a V10 and 500 hp, maybe it is worth what they are asking but with the same motor as in my RS4, I just don't get it. It is a cool car but I think if they do come out with a V10/V12 version, the V8's will drop a lot, quickly.

I'm certainly not here to offend anyone and I know people who own the car will defend it. It is pretty odd for me to be on the other side of an MB argument because I am a huge fan. I have a heavily modified '02 SLK 32 that I will never sell. It is in southern California now with VRP getting some more modifications. The AMG factory visit is one of the best things to do in Germany.

I asked the question because I've been consider a BS myself and whether it is worth premium or not. I don't think the R8 is and I also question the BS. Maybe at $115 or $120K yes but at $135K, yikes. It just seems like a lot for the delta over a regular CLK63, especially if the CLK63 coupe were available in the US. I guess to me, I don't see the BS and CLK DTM to be in the same class and that's why I can justify the premium for it over the BS. However, that is just my opinion. Clearly you and others think differently which is fine by me.

jcart, I'm following your modification project with Evosport. Very cool. Can't wait to see the finished product.

SteveL

But you can already get a BS for less then MSRP. At least from what I see in other threads in this forum and looking at Autotrader. And I'm not saying that the BS is only worth $5K more than the regular CLK63 but is it really worth $50K more. Some think it is and some think it isn't. As a possible consumer of one, that is what is holding me back. I'm concerned about the car depreciating very rapidly if the original MSRP is too high. Sure the car will depreciate, almost all do but how fast. The more out whack the original price is the more risk with depreciation you are taking. For instance, an '04 996 GT3 that was say $105 new is now still in the low 70s but an 06 CL65 or SL65 has lost more than $100K. Yes there has been a new body update but 997 GT3s are out now and it really hasn't affected the price of the 996 GT3s that much.

jrcart

SteveL; The guy at Capela told you there was a 625 HP CLK DTM? Are you sure he was not talking about a CLK GTR? There is a BIG difference, about a million bucks difference. To the best of my knowledge there was never a 625 HP DTM offered.

One more thing, and then I will drop it, the CLK DTM 0-60 is 3.8 or 3.9 seconds, depending on the publication you read. A Black Series is 4.0-4.1 seconds 0-60. Every publication or web site I check has the Black series out braking the DTM 60-0 by 5-8 feet and from 100-0 8-12 feet. The weight difference is 25-40 pounds depending on publication and source. Top speed of the DTM is 202, top speed on the BS is an Electronically Limited 186 and it gets there, I can verify that...so, do you still think the DTM is worth $250,000+? I would not be suprised if the introduction of the Black Series actually hurt the value of the DTM's.

jrcart

You did not offend me in any way, I know everyone has different tastes and opinions. I just thought your reasoning seemed a bit skewed.

SteveL

Yes, he definitely said the car that I posted a link to had 625 hp. As I said, he said that of the 100 built, 12 of them had 625 hp and this was one of them. He said he had full documentation on the specs of the car and it was build for Bruce Canepa. As soon as he said $425 I didn't think to ask for proof of anything and I didn't research it when I got back. But it was definitely a CLK DTM. Yes the CLK GTR is pretty crazy.

Read what JDB wrote about the CLK DTM car. Yes, I still think it is worth it. More than 3 times more rare than the BS, way more rare in the US (only 5 or 6 of them) and very unique.

Schiznick

Someone should ask these questions over on the AMG Private Lounge about the CLK DTM.....

I have never heard 625 HP on any of them.....

ET550

I thought your original statement was a little more cut and dried than what you are saying now. At the end of the day it is hard to predict what any new car is going to be worth down the road. While I personally think that a perceived better resale value might be a good added justification for buying a more expensive car that you may want, I don't think it is a good justification for choosing a car that you don't like as much over a car that is going to provide you with much more enjoyment. I certainly didn't buy the BS thinking it was going to be a good investment. I bought it because its a great performing car that is fun to drive on a daily basis and nothing else in the price range really excited me enough to spend the money. And since I tend to own my cars for at least 4 years, the depreciation hit is usually much less than what it would cost to lease a similar or lower priced car.

JDB

Here is a link to the CLK-DTM at Canepa in Scotts Valley, CA.

http://canepa.com/inventory/collect/...DTM/index.html

Note that they state that the engine has been modified to produce 625 hp.

JDB

SteveL

And I was told that this modification was done by AMG at the factory and 12 of the cars made had this modification and he had the docs to prove it. It could be just an urban legend but I don't know why he would tell me that knowing that it wasn't true. It would be easy to verify. Credibility is pretty important in the collector car business.

Jim Brady

Schiznick,
Good timing, there's a chat session tonight and they should be able to answer. I'll ask.

Brabus C55

this dialogue is toooooooo civil ... what happened to






that was cheaper than (& almost as entertaining as) a UFC pay-per-view

getting back to an interesting comment ...

Aren't Porsche auto's made by ZF (Tiptronic) & are "rear wheel-tranny-rear engine" configuration (from front to back) versus a "front engine-tranny-drive shaft-rear wheel" configuration for the MB 5 to 7 speeds.




PS - the BS is pretty cool ... not sure the price is justified, but I like it alot. there are just too many 911's in So Cal, but say GT-2 & I switching. (yeah I know the price diff & it's slighty off topic).




PPS -at the end of the day, most of us are car enthausiasts w/ our own personal taste and biases ... clearly. peace!




PPPS- squeezing out the true performance potential of any vehicle lies in the hands (& feet) of the driver. you can over tenths of seconds & fistfulls of HP all you want




PPPPS- ummmm oh yeah

SteveL

I just don't want to take the bath that S65/CL65 owners have taken. If after 4 years the BS was going for roughly $100K that wouldn't be so bad but it they are going for 50-70K, that would be pretty painful. Agreed, resale isn't the only reason to buy or not buy but it is a contributing factor. At least it looks like MB will stick pretty close to the original number. With my RS4 dealers were saying that they would only build 1000 per model year for 2 years. Yeah right. They build as many as they had orders for. Not anywhere near the mass production of M3s but not 1000 either.

Jim Brady

OK, I asked the question, Mike Martin is the AMG product guru, His answer on the private lounge is" To my knowledge ALL of the CLK DTM vehicles only have 580 hp".
Could the factory have done a one off. Sure for a boat load of money, but not likely prior to the opening of the AMG Studio. Secondly, there not going to do that conversion knowing its coming to the US becasue it's not a certified car. So my conclusion is that a privateer brought it over and had Canepa certify it. Curious that the block has been strenthened which would suggest SLR componets. It would be interesting to see the documents that Canepa has. I've met Bruce C on several occasions and I think he's a reputible guy becasue when you deal at this level of toys, the buyers all have lawyers.

MACHC5

Jim,

I just reviewed the PL chat session and saw AMG's reply to you.

I also looked on the CANEPA site at their CLK DTM photos and the engine does not appear to have the bigger inter-coolers to support 625 hp.

SteveL

Well the guy I talked to may not have had any idea what he was talking about but considering where he works I would think they would be careful about saying things that are not true. Maybe the next time you see Bruce C you could ask him about it or maybe email. Thanks for the info. Still no idea why they guy would say what he said. Still the car was super cool. When I talked to my tour guide at AMG I asked if the car would be street legal and she said no. The customer would have to take care of federalizing it. The same guy who told me everything else said that Bruce could have driven it with a dealer plate on the street but when they decided to sell it, they also decided to federalize it.

jrcart

So what is the verdict? I attempted to call Canepa yesterday, left a message, no return call yet. If this it is indeed a certified AMG built 625 HP DTM, I appologize to you SteveL. If it is indeed an AMG built 625 HP DTM, I think I'm going to buy it, if it can be registered and driven in IL. What where they asking, $300 or $400?

One more thing, did anyone else notice the grill and hood is all jacked up on the drivers side? Looks like it hit a bird at 200mph or it got hit with a baseball or something. Is that a CF, aluminum or steel hood?

SteveL

I think the only way to know for sure is to ask Canepa to produce the documentation that the guy told me they have. There are asking $425K but included having it federalized. Maybe you could get it for less. Once it is federalized, I assume you could register it any state. I didn't confirm it but he said the car only had something like 200 miles on it or so. When I saw it, it was in the process of being federalized. The seats were removed and the hood was up so I didn't notice if it had a carbon fiber hood or not. I didn't notice any damage on the car. I think there was one in Scottsdale Arizona that sold for something like 330 but I don't know if that one was federalized, almost certainly had 580 hp, and had over 2000 miles on I believe.

jrcart

SteveL; Thanks, go back to the pics on the website and take a look at the head on photo, there appears to me a dent on the hood and a seperation of the top two horizontal slits on the grill...maybe its just a bad pic.

SteveL

I see what you mean but I think it is just the way a computer is displaying the pic. There was no damage to the grill when I saw it and the pics were taken before I saw it. It was super clean when I looked at it. Even the inside of the wheels were spotless.

I am super envious of you being in a position to buy it. Honestly, if it were in my price range, I would have written the check while I was looking at the car that day.

jrcart

I just spoke to an AMG rep on the phone, he is not aware of any AMG factory built DTM car with 625 HP. He thought they were all offered with the 580 spec motors. He stated that there may have been prototype and test cars out there with those kind of HP figures, but to the best of his knowledge they were never offered for sale to anyone in the public, nor would they ever be able to be registered. He is going to look into it and get back to me. Besides, the more I think about it the more I think I will not buy it. It is so similar to my Black Series, maybe if it was a different color.

SteveL

The only way to know for sure is if Canepa can produce the documentation that was mentioned to me. He is not your average customer. Some of the cars he deals with are in the $5m range and more. I probably saw at least $150m or more worth of cars. I saw something like 5 Porsche 959s getting federalized. The place was amazing. At least 100 exotic and vintage road and race cars. If you are ever in the bay area, it is definitely worth stopping by. It is about 10 miles away from Santa Cruz in Scotts Valley.