Dixit

I havent been into the MB diesels since 91 (Getting ready to sell my 1991 350SDL that I completely rebuilt the engine and trans myself).

I see that they got back into diesels in 2005 with the CDI and then this year the Bluetec. I think the main difference between the two is the 05-06 CDI is the I6 and the 2007 Bluetec is V6. Besides that and more cleaner emmisions, is there anything else advantageous of the Bluetec?

Should I spend the extra to get that or just find a ncie 2005 CDI and be done with it if I can save 10-15k on current 07 prices. Personally I think the 07s are a bit out of where I wanted to spend, but if there is a clear choice there on having to pick the Bluetec then Im willing to listen and spend more.

Thanks
Dixit

Untertürkheim

There were a couple of reasons for me to order the car myself, but you may find some more or less important.

First, the 07 brought the 7g-Tronic transmission to the diesel engine. The pairing is far superior, really unlocking the car and engine potential, not to mention that you have a bit more HP and torque to begin with.

The newer engine is more advanced than the I6, it is simply a matter of newer designs and technology.

Sadly, diesels seem to often be sparcely equipped. I wanted a designo package, and every available option, in fact I would have ordered others not available to the US market.

Lastly, I prefer the facelift.

traumatic

all four years are more the same than different. I went with a used 2005 last year, because it was a color combo that I wanted, there were early problems reported with the Bluetec's G7 trans (a software problem), and the desire for ultimate durability (iron block and debugged technology) It was $15000 under sticker (18k mi) and $8000 less than an identical left over 2006. Although there were a couple of features that I would have gotten if I had my choice (panorama, dynamic seats, bluetooth) the cash in my pocket buys a LOT of swag.

Dixit

Eric, thanks for the info, thats what I was looking for. I want to start looking at the 2005s.

Dixit

lkchris

Just as an FYI ... this engine was introduced in Europe in 1999 and it took MBUSA until 2005 to have enough courage to reintroduce diesels in the USA.

The V6, BTW, was introduced in Europe in 2005.

240D 3.0T

Avoid the E320 Bluetec with it's exhaust choking emissions crap.

paco04

Maybe some of us happy Bluetec owners actually care about the environment.

lkchris

Written by someone with absolutely no experience.

Jealous perhaps?

DslBnz

Do you have a Bluetec? Merc SUV diesels don't count

I've driven 'em. They're nice and quite fun, alright (that 1st gear is practically useless because of the lack of traction).

The Bluetec cars seem to be averaging only 80 - 90% of the economy of what the earlier CDI's got. At least, so I've heard/read.

240D 3.0T

You should not question my experience, ESPECIALLY when you don't have a bluetec yourself.

lkchris

And you have how many Bluetec ownership miles?

240D 3.0T

And how many do you have?

khaug

What a joke! This owner (?) of an antedeluvian-tech diesel presumes to chastize those who buy contemporary diesels which are environmentally friendly, quiet and economical.

I encountered the owner of a 20 y.o. E300 in the service reception area of our dealership. The car was well-preserved, and I complimented him on the appearance of his old-timer. His response, was a haughty, "They aren't the same". My (unspoken) response was, "Yeah, they don't clatter or smoke and get about 35% better fuel mileage, start in cold weather and have tons of torque!"

What ignorant claptrap!

240D 3.0T

I dislike Bluetec because its only to meet the EPA and CARB's stupid fetish with unrealistically low NOx and particulate requirements.

Is reducing NOx emissions by 0.25grams per mile and particulates by 0.005grams per mile really worth 10% higher fuel consumption, 20hp exhaust restriction, additional weight to haul around, the emissions released in making these filters, and paying extra $$$$ on top of the diesel engine premium?

harkgar

Have you seen what 240 DT did to improve his 5 cylinder diesel on You Tube and elsewhere? You should. He is a diesel mechanic and does this for a living so I assume he knows a lot more about diesel engines than we do.

I agree with 240 DT on many issues one of which is the non-sensical new rules imposed on USA and Canadian drivers. Diesel passenger cars count less than 3% (as of last year) of all cars and making them as "clean" as gasoline cars are going to make under 3% improvement in pollution. Furthermore, European diesels are cleaner than NA versions in CO emission so all emission rules are highly arbitrary.

The latest diesel engines like the Ford Powerstroke 6.4 liter turbo MUST USE CJ-4 engine oil to preserve the emission equipment and comply with the new rules. Bluetec engines need similar treatment. If you are driving an older diesel, even a 2006 diesel down the highway and you are low on oil you can grab a few quarts at the truck stop and that will get you home.

If you have the latest Bluetec you have a choice of getting a lift home from an older diesel or put in oil that will clog up your fancy Bluetec pre-cat, cat and particulate filter. Hate to think how much that will cost since it is not covered under warranty.

harkgar

All pre-2007 diesels are freedom diesels. A GMC truck mechanic told me the latest Duramax diesel truck engines (designed together with Izusu) are suspect due to the latest junk required by law. Did you notice the flame traps and cone shaped exhaust tips?

Untertürkheim

While the bluetec emissions system does reduce power and fuel economy, I am inclined to trust its reliability simply because it is now available in europe (and of course its homeland). If it is suitable for $6 per gallon fuel and autobahn driving style, it can't be too bad... I believe it's the only car (and almost certainly the only diesel) currently produced that can meet EU 5.

If you really want to save the environment, ask MB why they don't sell the natural gas/gasoline bi fuel E-class here.
http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/...e_200_ngt.html

Wolfgang

One can use a 229.5 oil, e.g. the Mobil 1 0W-40 to top off the 2007 diesels, since the vapor pressure is not that much different from the recommended Mobil 1 5W-40.

Some of the LowSAPS oils were approved for diesels with particulate filters without reformulation. One example which comes to mind is the Chevron Delo 400 LE 15W-40. This is copied from my Sprinter page:

Wolfgang

It depends. The first Bluetec system was introduced in 2005 on the Actros trucks and saves up to 6 per cent on fuel.

Seems the passenger cars without AdBlue are not doing as well. Hopefully the AdBlue Bluetec SUV trucks next year will do better than their CDI predecessors. Time will tell.

harkgar

I think we all agree that in the name of a less than 3% improvement in air pollution per annum all NA diesel drivers are forced to fork out big bucks in new fancy diesel engines and engine oils. Meanwhile diesel engines in China, India and the rest of the world continue to use normal diesel fuel (defined as fuel not deprived of its natural sulfur content) to power their vehicles.

Cars makers and petroleum companies have to fall on their faces and adore the California politicians and tree-huggers.

harkgar

How much do the new Ad Blue engines cost compared with Freedom Diesels?
What is the replacement cost for the Bluetec-AdBlue systems?
What is the service life of these fancy systems?
If you were to do the much publized Beijing - Paris route again would you rather do it in a Bluetec-Ad Blue car or a Freedom Diesel in terms of reliability, if your life depends on your car not breaking down?

Why do you think it is not stupid to put emission systems in fighter planes, tanks and warships in the US air force, army and navy?

Gentlemen, I rest my case.

Wolfgang

On the Actros commercial trucks the system cost was quite expensive, around $5000 on a $100,000 truck. But this was compensated for by the fuel savings, thus that many commercial operators, when given the choice, selected the AdBlue system instead of the diesel without AdBlue. And commercial operators tend to calculate with a sharp pencil! One advantage is that it can use diesel with sulfur, which is necessary on long distance routes into the middle and far east.

China, India are also looking at fuel efficient diesels, and have far higher growth rates than here in the US. This year each of those two countries is producing more than 100,000 clean diesel engines with Bosch injection systems, and this number will climb to 1.3 million by 2010 in each of them.

Wolfgang

Currently the diesel market share is about 5% as I remember. It might climb in the future, as a number of manufacturers have announced plans. The folks over at Automobile Magazine track future diesels:

Car Name When to expect it

Audi Q7 3.0 TDI 2008
BMW 330d 2008
BMW X5 3.0d 2008
Cadillac CTS-D 2010
Chevrolet Silverado 4.5 V-8 Diesel 2010
Dodge Ram 1500 4.2 V-6 Diesel 2010
Ford Expedition 4.4 V-8 Diesel 2009
Ford F-150 4.4 V-8 Diesel 2009
GMC Sierra 4.5 V-8 Diesel 2010
Honda Accord Diesel 2009
Hummer H2 4.5 V-8 Diesel 2010
Hyundai Veracruz Diesel 2009
Mitsubishi Lancer Diesel 2010
Mitsubishi Outlander Diesel 2011
Nissan Maxima Diesel 2010
Nissan Titan Diesel 2010
Nissan Versa Diesel 2010
Saturn Aura Diesel 2010
Toyota Tundra 4.5 L V-8 Diesel 2010
Volkswagen Jetta Clean Diesel 2008
Volkswagen Tiguan Clean Diesel 2008
Volkswagen Touareg 3.0 V6 TDI 2009

From: http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...uture_diesels/

harkgar

Up to the time of the second generation Lexus LS400 (early nineties) China still used high sulfur GASOLINE and I read that they still buy this "dirty" gasoline from Thailand because the rest of Asia were encouraged (bullied) to follow US standards. The Chinese has the clout to do pretty much what they want, just like the British and Americans when they industrialised.

I am therefore surprised to hear that they are going for ultra-low sulfur diesel. Apart from lower emission, the new fuel has no advantage over the 500ppm stuff. New diesel technologies like high pressure piezzo and common rail can be applied to the old fuel too without the particulate filter and cats resulting in even more power and economy then the Bluetecs and Ad Blues. Diesel vehicles clock up huge mileages in China and it will take a long time for them to be replaced.

In a country where a lot of people do not live long enough to have lung cancer quiting smoking and driving low emission diesels are very low down on their priority lists indeed.

Wolfgang

I think attitudes in China may be changing. Here's a recent article about the pollution in Beijing. Athletes in endurance events at the upcoming 2008 summer Olympics may have to wear gas masks to be competitive, and flown in at the last minute from cleaner places like South Korea.

http://www.wired.com/science/planete...currentPage=1#

Auto manufacturers in China who are interested to clean up the emissions may be interested in Bluetec. Mercedes-Benz will share the technology with any auto manufacturer, as was announced by their research chief recently:

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/n...6500_13997.hbs

Below a recent picture of Beijing air.