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E320 CDi mod

 
Old 04-19-2008, 02:10 PM
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C200cdi
.
Happens before….
I made a new exhaust manifold.
Yes, it was shiny.
Thicker pipeline, and some little mods, like no egr.

Lower egp, and egt.
Unfortunately, no more power.
And, with same boost, less air trough the engine, which was surprise.

Now, I change original manifold back, with only one little change.
Charger intake is bigger than original manifolds hole, so I enlarge it.






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Old 04-19-2008, 05:16 PM
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1982 300D VNT, 1980 240D 3.0T, 1982 300TD
This is great, keep it coming!
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Old 04-20-2008, 01:18 PM
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C200cdi
.
Are the shimm plates “very common” thing to you ?
I have those under exhaust valve springs.
Plates comes between part number 11 and 17.



For a while ago I though, that exhaust pulses escapes to “wrong places”, and that disables “the power increase”.
As you certainly know, even in four cylinder engine, two exhaust valves are open in same time, for a while.
And, also strong exhaust pulse might disturb valves closing.
And, burning exhaust gas in cylinder, “do not any good” for incoming, cold air.
“Fill-rate” break down. (I don’t know the right word, hope you understand).

But shimm plates don’t help for lack of power.
However, they gives opportunity to get more pulling rpm,s.
So, now I have workable rpm,s till 5000.
Of course, it requires also reprogramming.

Shimm plates also helps to avoid memorable meeting of piston and exhaust valve.
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:03 AM
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C200cdi
.
Between fuel line and injector, there is a connector. (=Nozzle parts kit)
Inside it, there is a fueling limiter.
It can be removed.






In my car, removing increases fueling rate, because “low-end” torque becomes stronger.
However, as you might guess all ready, no more power.

I don’t know, what kind of effect this makes with stock injectors.
But you can try, it doesn’t brake anything.
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:02 PM
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2006 E320 CDi, 2008 3/4 Ton Suburban, 2007 "rice rickshaw" Accord 5 speed
You are nuts.

Are all "Flying Finns" nutty too? No wonder there are so many highly modified diesel engines in Finland.

Is it the frigid air? Long winters? Canada has those conditions too but they are so slow driving their diesels.

Drivers here talk about go-go warning and green envy initiatives and wind power (farts) instead of how to squeeze the last horsepower out of the diesel engine and blow thick black smoke.
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:38 AM
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C200cdi
Originally Posted by 240D 3.0T View Post
Did you remove the air conditioning?

How did you reprogram the computer for the turbo?

That 2359 may be why you can't get 300hp. Maybe you should look for a 2559 or 2560 from a BMW.


I don’t like this post, not at all…..

Well, there are couple of mods, which really helps me.
Maybe I tell them too.

First, in program, boost is now 1,75bar.
Originally it is 1,2bar.
It is possible to raise it till 2bar also in program, but I don’t want to.
I want to adjust it by myself.
I am using “pressure-interface- valve”, (Wilkerson X11, Diaphragm Relief Valve), and regular air pressure bypass valve.
Point is, that in lower pressures bypass doesn’t work.
It is working only when higher boost is really needed.

This might do some damage.
Don’t try, if you don’t know, what are you doing.


Also good mods were cooler and new exhaust pipe.
Original exhaust pipe back pressure, without cats, was 0,4bar (170kw/1,75bar).
I am using original 3.0cdi AMG- injectors.

Situation before bigger cooler and 1,75bar boost.



After that paper, power increases 20kw, with cooler and higher pressure, practically without program changes.
In fact, I am still using practically same “old” program, with only few little mods in it.
Because it is working so well.
Car is as easy to drive than stock one.
Injectors spraying time is original – 15%, so, it is short, injection is very effective.
It must be, longer spray time causes troubles, in many ways.
Rail pressure is original.

………Maybe I really need bigger turbo.


One more thing.
I hope, that this thread don`t become monologue.........
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:27 AM
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1982 300D VNT, 1980 240D 3.0T, 1982 300TD
Originally Posted by tuikku View Post
I hope, that this thread don`t become monologue.........
Even if it does, keep it up. I'm learning a lot from your posts.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:02 AM
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C200cdi
Originally Posted by 240D 3.0T View Post
Even if it does, keep it up. I'm learning a lot from your posts.

Maybe I rather hoped a little sharing of information..
..and learning English.

But, is there anything precise, that you want to know ?
Although, I don’t know very much about pre-chamber diesels.
I am quite sure, that you already know more of those things.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:09 AM
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1982 300D VNT, 1980 240D 3.0T, 1982 300TD
What exhaust manifold pressures do you get when the vanes are closed? Do you have a chart of exhaust pressure across the RPM range?
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:04 AM
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C200cdi
.


red = boost
yellow = maf
green = rpm
blue = egp
4th gear, max acceleration.

How precisely do you know VNT-charger working principals ?

Shortly.
The “general” position of vanes is fully open.
When you start the engine, program pull the vanes “closed”.
And they are closed as long as pressure rises to certain rate, which is quite near max boost level.
Then program little open the vanes.
Egp don’t rise then any more.
This “rate” moves, it depend on acceleration.
Harder acceleration means lower “opening level”
Vanes are totally open only a very short time, when pressure reach the max level.
That part of pressure-control-program, which keeps the pressure precisely to top level, is called “hysteresis”
Shortly before max rpm,s program star to limit fueling, to avoid “over-rpm”.
Pressure collapse.
This is an old picture, I have more rpm,s now, but working principals are same.


Vanes are closed till ~1,2bar boost, egp is then ~1,4-1,5bar.
When the vanes are closed, egp is ~0,2-0,3bar higher, than boost.
When vanes opens slightly, egp rises only very slowly at beginning, but accelerated motion.
Egp reach the boost level near max rpm,s.
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:21 AM
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1982 300D VNT, 1980 240D 3.0T, 1982 300TD
Interesting, my egp is much higher until I hit 10psi then it drops to 1:1. In the higher RPMs it raises to 1.7:1 (13psi:23psi). My VNT control is mechanical so I'm very limited in how much I can tune it.

Next time I do a dyno session I'll have to measure EGP.

Here is my most recent graph.
Attached Thumbnails E320 CDi mod-lmn-dyno-2-11-08-graph.jpg  
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:17 PM
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C200cdi
.
I have bigger turbo and smaller engine.
In pre-chamber diesels spraying time is also a bit longer, that increases egp.

270cdi,s turbo is good for +200hp/1,6bar boost (23psi ?)

If I remember right, when I had that charger in my car.
It had ~210hp/450nm/1,3bar boost. (19psi)
Egp was then ~1,8bar (26psi)
So, you don’t have anything to worry.
You need only a little turbo-tuning.

In stock engines, practically all MB cdi,s.
Max boost is 1,2-1,3 bar.
And egp is nearly all the time 1bar higher, than boost pressure.
Recycling “working power” comes from egp.
So, egp must be higher, than boost all the time, otherwise recycling doesn’t work.
There are only two situations, when egr is closed.
Max acceleration and (long) idling.

Your turbo-vanes are practically working like wastegate ?
You can adjust egp lower, simply by making the “vanes-actuate-rod” longer.
So, after that the “start” position of your vanes is more open, and egp don’t rise so much at the beginning.
If your turbo is in stock settings, then vanes are too “closed” all the time.
The factory settings are set so, that egp rises enough high. (Recycling)
Some chargers, but not all, have a little adjusting screw.
Which can force the vanes more open.

The “open” position is more important, than “closed”.
Adjust the vanes as open as it possible, so that charger is still “working”.

Hope that this helps.
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:44 AM
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C200cdi
.
Little about rail-pressure, high-pressure-pump….. and tuning boxes.

The rate of fueling depends on two things, rail-pressure and spraying time.
The way that program handles fueling rate, is xx ml/1000 working stroke.
There are maps, like boost pressure maps, also to rail-pressure.
Rail-pressure depends on throttle position and engine rpm.s.

So, actually when you throttle, you only ask for program some fuelling level (ml/….)
If rail-pressure is low in that moment, program simply continues the spraying time.
It calculates the "right" injector-opening-time.
It tries to fulfil your ask of power that way.
Spraying get shorter, when rail-pressure get higher.
Situation “lives” all the time.
Rail-pressure is in highest, when acceleration is max.
Egp is also lowest, when rail-pressure rises as soon as possible.


With very “light” throttle positions, rail-pressure is also very low.
In ~80-100km/h “travelling speed”, the rail-pressure is something between 600-800bar.
This is important for pump last or “living”, and fuel economy.
High pressure pump gives a lot of power.
Program gives full rail-pressure only when boost pressure reach max level, and throttle is in “bottom”, only then.
If the boost pressure don’t rise to a max level, for some reason, program don’t give max level fueling either.
Boost pressure (signal) is very important in MB systems.

There are two ways to get the program calculate the amount of fueling wrongly.
And get more fueling and more power.

1. Cheat the rail-pressure-sensor-signal.
Program sees then the pressure too low, and raises it.

2. Cheat the injector-opening-signal.
Then injector is “open” longer time.

If you have to choose, choose the one which cheats the spraying time, it is “safier”.
I am not saying, that this is good way, but better.

The rail-pressure-cheating- box is totally crap.
There is a risk, whit that, to break a lot and expensively, for your engine.
Very easily “limp mode”, or “check the engine” – light.

It might seem so, but I have nothing against tuning boxes……

…..I don’t, really.
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Old 04-24-2008, 04:28 PM
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'08 C220CDI AMG// '08 CLK320CDI AMG// '13 E500 Coupe AMG// '17 E350d AMG
Originally Posted by tuikku View Post
I don’t like this post, not at all…..

Well, there are couple of mods, which really helps me.
Maybe I tell them too.

First, in program, boost is now 1,75bar.
Originally it is 1,2bar.
It is possible to raise it till 2bar also in program, but I don’t want to.
I want to adjust it by myself.
I am using “pressure-interface- valve”, (Wilkerson X11, Diaphragm Relief Valve), and regular air pressure bypass valve.
Point is, that in lower pressures bypass doesn’t work.
It is working only when higher boost is really needed.

This might do some damage.
Don’t try, if you don’t know, what are you doing.


Also good mods were cooler and new exhaust pipe.
Original exhaust pipe back pressure, without cats, was 0,4bar (170kw/1,75bar).
I am using original 3.0cdi AMG- injectors.

Situation before bigger cooler and 1,75bar boost.



After that paper, power increases 20kw, with cooler and higher pressure, practically without program changes.
In fact, I am still using practically same “old” program, with only few little mods in it.
Because it is working so well.
Car is as easy to drive than stock one.
Injectors spraying time is original – 15%, so, it is short, injection is very effective.
It must be, longer spray time causes troubles, in many ways.
Rail pressure is original.

………Maybe I really need bigger turbo.


One more thing.
I hope, that this thread don`t become monologue.........
If you can try the garrett GT2260 used in the 530d and 330d, they are very popular among the diesel tuning people, its a great turbo for what I can ear, and my friend LOB will also install one in his 270cdi and I will install his stock 270cdi turbo in my 220cdi

For what I could read, only with chiptuning without any engine modifications you reached 200hp with no problems?
My brother have also an sport coupe like mine but with the new engine, and we are thinking to chiptuning it, but first I have to buy a new turbo for it, its damaged!!!

Keep posting about your car and the mods you are doing, its good to know that someone is moding his CDI among so many TDI tuners
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:09 AM
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C200cdi
Originally Posted by gaiex View Post
If you can try the garrett GT2260 used in the 530d and 330d, they are very popular among the diesel tuning people, its a great turbo for what I can ear, and my friend LOB will also install one in his 270cdi and I will install his stock 270cdi turbo in my 220cdi

For what I could read, only with chiptuning without any engine modifications you reached 200hp with no problems?

Do you know any car with ~same size engine with that turbo and clearly more power ?
AND measured reliably.

I know that turbo.
Getting it, is not a problem, at all.
I have here a good friend, who knows “something” about turbos.
Quite much, in fact.
You might read his writings to “VW-sites”
His nickname here in finland is TDIfreak.

Yes, it can push more air under pressure.
Stock BMW engines have more boost, than MB.
But its exhaust side is smaller.
And boost-improvement is too small, if there even is it.
There are couple of 3L BMW,s over 300hp with that charger.
Their egp is over 3bar, I don’t personally want that.
Max power comes very low rpm,s and low-end torque is huge.
That charger is not very reliably.
Very high egp means too much rpm,s for turbo.

But I haven’t even herd, that 2359 has broken.
I have driven with that charger and 230hp, or more, and 1,75bar boost, or more, over 100 000km now.
Maybe it is not very easy to confirm me, that 2260 is better somehow.

One thing is to have very nice dynopaper.
The “everyday driving”, with “long lasting” turgocharger is other.


This engine cannot give 200hp, with only chiptuning.
With original rail-pressure.
180hp, with original charger is more true.
190hp with 270cdi,s charger.

It is still my bad English.

Here is one of the earliest dynorun of my car.
I want then “everything possible”.
I don’t recommend.
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:25 PM
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CLK 270CDi
2260 takes more time to fill, a litle bit, than yours but can make more pressure.
Here, in portugal, can be taken from a 3L BMW 330hp only with chiptuning. And it isn't necessary 3bar, not even close.
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Old 04-26-2008, 06:57 AM
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C200cdi
.
It seems, that you not only have more beautiful girls out there, but better cars too… damn.


Higher boost is almost different thing, than more air to engine.
Boost isn’t important, amount of air is.
Boost pressure don’t give more power, it losses it.
Boost pressure is only a (one) tool to increase amount of air in engine.
Power comes from “diesel-burning”, only.


Do you mean x35d, or x30d ?
x35d, it is ok.
If x30d, with original injectors, rail-pressure, clutch and exhaust pipe.
… you don’t need to tell me more.
Just post the dyno-run-paper here.

In my thread in mersuforum.
I have one dynopaper from 330 BMW.
Different injectors, clutch, exhaust pipe, and little modified, original charger.
And remapping, and smoke.
You can see, how “the curves really goes”.
Huge torgue, max power in very low rpm,s.
Lack of air.
Remapping can only give more power, if the engine is rebuilt so, that it is capable of it.
Here
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Old 04-26-2008, 05:23 PM
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CLK 270CDi
I mean 530d 2006 all stock! Nothing was tuned.
Last dyno test:


Zero smoke, FAP power

Can be taken a litle more hp from this car... soon... with only chip tuning too
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Old 04-26-2008, 05:25 PM
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CLK 270CDi
334hp to be more especific
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Old 04-26-2008, 06:39 PM
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C200cdi
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Do you know, what kind of rail-pressure they use ?
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Old 04-27-2008, 06:06 PM
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CLK 270CDi
Originally Posted by tuikku View Post
.
Do you know, what kind of rail-pressure they use ?
This kind of things I leave in the hands of my chiptuner...
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:58 AM
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C200cdi
.
Well, you seems to be a nice guy.
So I don’t want to argue with you.

Although
It seems, that you don’t know very much about cdi-diesels-working-principals.
Or neither, how the whole systems works.
And, you don’t need to chance a single part from technics.
Despite of all, you have that magnificent power, and even with particle filter.
No smoke and more power coming…

I don’t know, what to think…
You tell me

Anyway
That chiptuner there must be very skilful.
No question about that…
Does he have a name, or chiptuning company.
That kind of results may interest many.

Buy the way, did you know, that even with the stock engine exhaust manifold back pressure is over 2bar ?
The situation in my engine, is very much different, than in stock engine.
Without turbo-adjusting, in chiptuned engines, egp rises clearly…………
And, there is one interesting thing about the air-mass too……
Maybe air-mass acts differently, than you expect.

I have measured a lot.
It is only way to find out, what happens around the engine.
With right emulator, you can see, what happens in program same time.
I have strong doubts for your measuring anything…..
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:31 PM
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CLK 270CDi
Yes, i didn't know very much about cdi only the basics... I am learning a lot with you keep posting

I doesn't do any measures because my chiptuner already did it... It doesn't do the chip anyway.
My chiptuner is Miguel Patrocinio, MBPOWER, which had make lots of works not only at portugal but out of the country like america... chilipepperracing team
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Old 04-29-2008, 05:23 AM
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C200cdi
.
Yes
I am not even interested in BMW,s, sorry.
Maybe I am just jealous.

With higher rail-pressure, it could be possible.
Otherwise injectors fueling-capasity isn’t enough.
High-pressure pumps don’t last very well even with the basic pressure.
And they are directly connected to camsaft.
So, if pump leaks, it breaks “a lot and expensive”.
I don’t recommend.

Could you tell, what kind of results he have had with MB,s ?


Lets talk little about injectors and injection.

If we forget the rail-pressure increase, because its risks.
There is only one way left to get more fuel burning and get more power at stock engine.
It is, let injectors spray longer.

Longer fuel-spray causes smoke.
In the beginning, it is not visible, but causes that engine don’t get through emission tests.
That’s why manufacturers “leaves” unused power in their engines.
So, emission level specifies engines power limits, not their mechanical features.
This difference is about 20%.

Yes, it is possible to get even more power out, just for reprogramming.
But “bad” features increases after that in “accelerated speed”.

When spraying time get longer, in the other hand it means that the whole injection-timing moves later and later.
That increase smoke also.
Max power revs comes lower and lower at the same time, than spraying gets longer.
The very latest part of spray doesn’t burn well any more.
(Piston has moved already too far away.)
In (chiptuned) stock engine, smoke doesn’t mean that air is necessarily ending, but the spraying time is (too) long.
That’s why (stock) engine is still giving more power all the time, even if it gives more and more smoke same time.
There is more power coming as long as there is enough air.
In the end: Amount of air = amount of power.

Lower revs, when there is still plenty of spraying time left, burning efficiency is still quite good.
That is the main reason, why in “harder” chips, there are only little more power, but plenty of more low-end torque.

Thick black smoke means huge thermal stress for engine and charger.
And mostly high egp.
And in stock engines, egp is already very high, even without chiptuning.

This is cdi-diesel-working –principal-fact.
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Old 04-29-2008, 07:28 PM
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'08 C220CDI AMG// '08 CLK320CDI AMG// '13 E500 Coupe AMG// '17 E350d AMG
I also have chiptune by MBPower, and I'm not an engine expert to know everything is done to my engine, but what I know its all well done

http://www.mb-powered.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luj84...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhEzbGKMPtI

Last edited by gaiex; 04-29-2008 at 08:09 PM.
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