np888

So I've scheduled my car with the dealer to get a tune next month. I'm trying to decide between these two tunes.

- The Kleemann has slightly less power but is significantly cheaper, almost half the price

- The Renntech tune was recommended by my dealer because they "don't use a bolt on the ecu", it also has about 22 extra ponies, but is twice the cost.

Can anyone share experiences with either tuners?

Used2be

I'm sorry I'm of no help at all, but your question prompts some from me. You don't have Eurocharged as a choice of tunes, why? I think previously you were worried about an aftermarket tune because of warranty concerns, but now the dealer is involved, do they condone an ECU change? Eurocharged mentions a "small hole will be on the ECU case after tuning.", is this the same as the bolt you mention that Kleeman uses? Did your dealer explain how RENNtech was able to modify the ECU without using a bolt, or drilling a hole?

np888

Hello there,

1) I read some very negative reviews on Eurocharged online about both their product and customer service. I was also advised against the Eurocharged tune by several others. I'm not saying what I heard was true, but the stuff I've heard makes me uncomfortable to use their products.

2) Yes, the dealer is an official RennTech dealer and one of the largest in the US. They have assured me there will be no problems as long as I use them going forward. They condone the ECU tune and even said it was a mild tune.

3) Yes I believe this is the same bolt thing. I don't know how RennTech gets around this, doubt they would share their method anyway

loungn14

I would love to know the negative stuff you have heard about us. I would say the positive things are 30x more then the negative by far. There is bound to be a few people out of the 6000 cars we have tuned that are not happy with the experience but that's the nature of the game.

Used2be

Thanks for your take on which shop to use. There are so many often conflicting opinions online that it does make it more difficult to decide which way to go sometimes. I've always thought that you're much more likely to see posts from those who are unhappy rather than the satisfied customer, but those negative posts are still there and if you take them as true it could be your experience as well...... Interesting to see that it seems to be the dealer who is able to decide what is allowed and what is not as far as modifications to the car concerning warranty violations since they actually sell the product you're adding to the car.

I'm glad to see a rep of Eurocharged online though, and that they do participate in the exchanges of opinion on this forum.

fld

I am a controls engineer for an engine manufacturer and have worked in aftertreatment system and air handling (all things involving air flow to the engine (egr, cooler, turbocharger, and etc) and exhaust gas coming out).

Our engines also have 3rd party companies that sell their modification parts to replace our OEM parts ranging from ECU, EGR, deletes, and etc. I cannot say about Renntech, Eurocharged, and etc on what they do. But I can tell you that these mod parts used on our engines cause more problems than they are helping. In they past when the software on the ECU was not highly encrypted, these companies could still hack and decrypt the source code to modify the fueling tables (hence able to claim for hp increase) and then to do other things involving the aftertreatment components they have removed. But these days, our software is highly encrypted and those companies can only use their guess to override the fueling command. Their mods so far almost to most of the times are empirically based, and rarely physics-based, which means you will see hp increase (of course more fueling == more hp) but in the long run you may face other problems. One of the examples that I have see happen is that the ECU has been flashed with 3rd party software to give more fueling, then more fueling == more soot, but the soot filter regeneration may still be based on the original schedule (which the 3rd party guy may ignore to care), then the soot filter receives more soot in a given interval than it can clean (regenerate). The result is the soot filter becomes clogged, the dealer finds the mod and the warranty is denied, then the customer has to pay for the repair, wwhich I think would be about $6k for parts and labor.

This is jusst my 0.02 anyway.

loungn14

Have to disagree with this one my friend.

Most of us tuners have already decrypted the ENTIRE ecu and have access to every map that MB uses (multiple thousand). To further prove that point google some of our turbo projects such as the turbo srt6 or turbo C350. Those were done with factory ecu, not a piggyback. Also check out the E55 forum where we modify fueling tables on a daily basis as stage 2+ cars need upgraded injectors.

Second, the car runs pig rich from the factory. Almost all tuners will lean out the mixture and not richen it. You make more power that way, not by adding fuel.

We are on the forums every day, helping out with various things. We have tuned so many cars on this board that im surprised you are seeing negative experiences. I would suggest venturing out from the C207 forum and seeing a few of the others. You will see a ton of happy customer posts for us. The only negative ones I am aware of are years old.

Either way TUNE THE CAR! Its night and day different and probably one of the best things you can ever do to it! Both renntech and Kleeman are great companies and you can't go wrong with either one!!! The reason they use the bolt is to not have to physically open the ecu. We have seen many problems with that method as the boards were shorting. We drill a hole then have a device to touch the one pin we need to finish the tune. We then cover the hole with epoxy and paintmatch the ecu color.

Recent review:
https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...ale-899-a.html

Oh, and our tune is on sale for $899

np888

I was originally planning to go ahead with Eurocharged, once I started digging around I found the following review:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w211...or-2-year.html

I asked a few others and came back with a negative impression. Obviously people usually post to complain but the bigger thing for me, is that my dealer will take care of the RennTech or Kleemann tune but not the Eurocharged one. To me it's just piece of mind for the warranty if the dealer takes care of it.

loungn14

lmao!!! Ah yes the 2 year old thread (the stuff he was talking about happened a few years ago. And then he sent the car back for more work)

I see your link and raise ya Some people you just can't make happy. He was banned from almost every forum. But there are always two sides to every story.

http://www.*********.com/showthread....-the-douchebag

Used2be

I have no first hand knowledge of how to reprogram an ECU and am just going by what has been stated in this post. The OP was told by his dealer that there was no "bolt" in the ECU from RENNtech. Is there a way to reprogram the ECU by an aftermarket tuner that might not need access to that one pin needed to finish the tune? Or, is there some way of removing the circuit board from the cover, re-programming and then replacing the cover with no need of a hole? Of course perhaps the dealer didn't mention a repaired hole in the ECU from RENNtech, and the tune is accomplished just as Eurocharged does it?

loungn14

No problem, wouldn't expect you to know! Its a pretty new technology to get these done.

Yes, we used to open the ecu (no bolt or hole) but found in the long run that to be a risky problem. I can only speak from our experience of coarse and not for the other vendors.

Used2be

Thanks for the explanation.

fld

That was absolutely fine to disagree with me. That was also why I said in my post that I cannot say about what Renntech and and Eurocharged do in their mod algorithms. But, I could just say about what some of the companies which mod our products, for what they usually do. Being able to decrypt the OEM software is one part, there are other parts which are highly essential to making the engine operation robust, too. I am not here to open a debate, though.

If you meant by "rich" == "rich mixture" between fuel and air, I am not sure I can agree. This is because the US has one among most strictest emissions regulations in the world, by EPA, and especially in CA where CARB reigns. Rich mixture will result in a lot of things including emissions exceedance, not too mention poor fuel economy. At every engine operation point, there is a certain air-to-fuel ratio (AFR) which the engine needs to meet in order to produce the required power for a given load while still remaining economical and emissions compliant. So, having said that, the AFR can change depending on the engine operation mode. And if what you said about the OEM software was generally rich, they would not have passed EPA and CARB emissions tests. In my experience having seen our ECMs modded by those companies, it has been otherwise; the emissions are through the roof and the fuel economy is worse. However, I by no mean am talking about your mods but sharing what my experience with other members. And it is great if your mods are physics based that the modded engines are working robustly and that your customers are happy.

BTW, I neither had any negative experience with your mod nor said that I saw any negative experience with your mods.

Shifter

I'm guessing fld is in the deisel engine business ?

Mrbig

Who has a tune please list which and any 1/4 mile times !

Blown_V8s

nawlinstornado

Why is the link starred out? I'd like to read the other side of the story.

nawlinstornado

Care to share the dealer name? I'd like to talk to them about doing mine.

Jeffy

I tend to agree with fld here. I am a Daimler vehicle test engineer and work closely with our engine development guys. The changes these tuners make to ECUs are not fully developed with the downstream emission control components, drivetrain and other parts/systems of the car. As such, reliability will be compromised and Daimler can void your original warranty no matter what the dealer says or promises. Daimler has to approve warranty work and reimburse the dealers. So there is indeed risk when having your car aftermarket tuned.

sinape62

http://www.mercedesofbuckhead.com/se...speed/gallery:

MB in house tunes...

sinape62

http://www.eurocharged.com/blog/263-mbbuckhead

More... But on Eurocharged....

Jeffy

It's nice that these services are offered to those that want them, even with convenience of a dealer. However, a dealer is not MB and it does not offer the OEM warranty, MB does. Simply call MB Customer Care, ask for a supervisor and ask the question 'if you have an ECU tune (through Renntech, Kleeman, Eurocharged, whomever) and there is a problem would the OEM warranty still apply and damage be covered?' The answer is if they find evidence of ECU tampering or altering, they reserve the right to deny your warranty claim. So buyer need be aware.

sinape62

So I guess if you put Valvoline motor oil instead of Mobile 1 the warranty can be voided because MB recommends Mobile 1? That would be a deviation of the OEM recommendation. Come on and don't be afraid to mod!

I did Eurocharged and Sprint Booster. Oops put an K&N filter too! Next purchase Prior Design PD550. Wheels undecided, got any ideas for suspension?

Jeffy

Ha ha! Well I don't necessarily agree with your oil analogy but I wouldn't put Valvoline in my car either. Modding is tempting and the tuners seem to be getting very impressive gains indeed. At only 300 miles its too soon for me.

sinape62

Go for it (modding). And i agree that, i wouldnt use anything but Mobil1.