W210 Misfiring when cold. P0171 & P0301.
07-06-2010, 01:16 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
W210 Misfiring when cold. P0171 & P0301.
Hi all,
I've been researching alot of of the related problems on this forum and other mercedes forums but I couldn't any resolution to this. Almost kinda giving up but I'm sure I'm narrowing down things alot already.
Car:
W210 Kompressor 1998cc Petrol
Year build 2001.
Here's the problem:
During daily cold start in the morning(avg temp 25degrees C), the engine will seems like misfiring. Stutters. If you rev it, you can hear it's like missing a beat and very quickly (within a minute) the stuttering disappears.
On worse scenarios, the misfiring is so bad and the CEL will be on. OBDII scanner shows P0171 - System too lean (Bank1). Very occasionally, it will also have P0301 - Cylinder 1 misfire detected. Lets say out of 5 instances of P0171, 1-2 cases will be accompanied with P0301.
I've went to a few mechanics and they suggested things like plugs, coils, which I've all changed. Plugs were initially changed to Iridium and it got worse. I threw away the plugs and bought Platinum ones and seemed better. Coils were changed with no significant differences.
From the forum research, this error P0171 is related to MAF sensor. So I replaced with a brand new one. And the problem persisted exactly with no improvement.
Another experienced Mercedes workshop said this could be due to fuel issues as well, ie fuel pump, fuel filter+accumulator. But I would assume if fuel is a problem, it would have also caused "P0174 System too lean (Bank2)." ?? But I've never had this P0174 error on Bank2. But ok some forumers also mentioned about the fuel delivery, so I proceeded with the change as well.
Now, after I've made all these parts replacement and the fault is still recurring, the workshop is suggesting I change the injectors.
From Forum, it seems injectors for W210 are seldom faulty or clogged. Even the parts shop don't seems to have ready stock for this. They said they can order this in within days but it's not a frequently changed part (ie sensors). So I'm wondering if anyone has any idea/suggestion what I should do?
I'm just thinking of swapping the injectors (ie rotate injector 1&2 to 3&4) and see if it'll cause P0174 System too lean (Bank 2)?? But from my understanding, the injectors aren't that straight forward to be changed? Probably 1/2 a day's effort?
Or has anyone came across this problem and can link this to any other sensors issues? I'm not sure if there's a O2 sensor in each bank?
Offhand I think there's a O2 sensor for upstream and downstream.
I've been researching alot of of the related problems on this forum and other mercedes forums but I couldn't any resolution to this. Almost kinda giving up but I'm sure I'm narrowing down things alot already.
Car:
W210 Kompressor 1998cc Petrol
Year build 2001.
Here's the problem:
During daily cold start in the morning(avg temp 25degrees C), the engine will seems like misfiring. Stutters. If you rev it, you can hear it's like missing a beat and very quickly (within a minute) the stuttering disappears.
On worse scenarios, the misfiring is so bad and the CEL will be on. OBDII scanner shows P0171 - System too lean (Bank1). Very occasionally, it will also have P0301 - Cylinder 1 misfire detected. Lets say out of 5 instances of P0171, 1-2 cases will be accompanied with P0301.
I've went to a few mechanics and they suggested things like plugs, coils, which I've all changed. Plugs were initially changed to Iridium and it got worse. I threw away the plugs and bought Platinum ones and seemed better. Coils were changed with no significant differences.
From the forum research, this error P0171 is related to MAF sensor. So I replaced with a brand new one. And the problem persisted exactly with no improvement.
Another experienced Mercedes workshop said this could be due to fuel issues as well, ie fuel pump, fuel filter+accumulator. But I would assume if fuel is a problem, it would have also caused "P0174 System too lean (Bank2)." ?? But I've never had this P0174 error on Bank2. But ok some forumers also mentioned about the fuel delivery, so I proceeded with the change as well.
Now, after I've made all these parts replacement and the fault is still recurring, the workshop is suggesting I change the injectors.
From Forum, it seems injectors for W210 are seldom faulty or clogged. Even the parts shop don't seems to have ready stock for this. They said they can order this in within days but it's not a frequently changed part (ie sensors). So I'm wondering if anyone has any idea/suggestion what I should do?
I'm just thinking of swapping the injectors (ie rotate injector 1&2 to 3&4) and see if it'll cause P0174 System too lean (Bank 2)?? But from my understanding, the injectors aren't that straight forward to be changed? Probably 1/2 a day's effort?
Or has anyone came across this problem and can link this to any other sensors issues? I'm not sure if there's a O2 sensor in each bank?
Offhand I think there's a O2 sensor for upstream and downstream.
07-06-2010, 01:45 PM
#2
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2001 E320 - RIP
hey Kianbeng...sorry to hear you're having issues....is this an E220 Kompressor? or what?
- have you checked the turbo for leaks?.....
- have you purged the egr (see attached)? not necessarily the reason for the misfiring, but good to do if it has never been done - it's the vacuum system that helps with fuel/air mixture, etc. by ensuring gases are burned off before entering exhaust - while at it check all vacuum hoses for leaks as any would cause issues.....
- more importantly, check your exhaust manifold and particularly the cat(s)....your mechanic/exhaust shop can perform a back pressure test at your o2 sensors (on the v6 there are four of them, two on each exhaust bank, one before the front cats and one after the front cats) and determine if the cat(s) is the culprit (the v6 has two cats on each exhaust bank - four total!)....once a cat warms up it may not show symptoms as it does cold and MB is designed to warm up the cats to operating temps when you first start up the car....also, a plugged up (or partially plugged up, i.e failing) cat can cause misfires, depending on which exhaust bank - usually the cylinders at the back will develop buildup, etc. and cause a cel with a domino effect down the line...
look here for cat laws ..... http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/cata...er-laws-24337/ ....and here, for general cat info.... http://www.converterwarehouse.com/index.cfm ....if it is cat(s), depending on where you are and emissions laws, you have options for replacement ranging from ~$100 per cat to ~$1500 per bank (includes both cats) for the v6! ....or it could just be one or more bad o2 sensor!!!
....good luck!
- have you checked the turbo for leaks?.....
- have you purged the egr (see attached)? not necessarily the reason for the misfiring, but good to do if it has never been done - it's the vacuum system that helps with fuel/air mixture, etc. by ensuring gases are burned off before entering exhaust - while at it check all vacuum hoses for leaks as any would cause issues.....
- more importantly, check your exhaust manifold and particularly the cat(s)....your mechanic/exhaust shop can perform a back pressure test at your o2 sensors (on the v6 there are four of them, two on each exhaust bank, one before the front cats and one after the front cats) and determine if the cat(s) is the culprit (the v6 has two cats on each exhaust bank - four total!)....once a cat warms up it may not show symptoms as it does cold and MB is designed to warm up the cats to operating temps when you first start up the car....also, a plugged up (or partially plugged up, i.e failing) cat can cause misfires, depending on which exhaust bank - usually the cylinders at the back will develop buildup, etc. and cause a cel with a domino effect down the line...
look here for cat laws ..... http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/cata...er-laws-24337/ ....and here, for general cat info.... http://www.converterwarehouse.com/index.cfm ....if it is cat(s), depending on where you are and emissions laws, you have options for replacement ranging from ~$100 per cat to ~$1500 per bank (includes both cats) for the v6! ....or it could just be one or more bad o2 sensor!!!
....good luck!
Last edited by kbad; 07-06-2010 at 02:09 PM.
07-06-2010, 11:29 PM
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
hey Kianbeng...sorry to hear you're having issues....is this an E220 Kompressor? or what?
- have you checked the turbo for leaks?.....
- have you purged the egr (see attached)? not necessarily the reason for the misfiring, but good to do if it has never been done - it's the vacuum system that helps with fuel/air mixture, etc. by ensuring gases are burned off before entering exhaust - while at it check all vacuum hoses for leaks as any would cause issues.....
- more importantly, check your exhaust manifold and particularly the cat(s)....your mechanic/exhaust shop can perform a back pressure test at your o2 sensors (on the v6 there are four of them, two on each exhaust bank, one before the front cats and one after the front cats) and determine if the cat(s) is the culprit (the v6 has two cats on each exhaust bank - four total!)....once a cat warms up it may not show symptoms as it does cold and MB is designed to warm up the cats to operating temps when you first start up the car....also, a plugged up (or partially plugged up, i.e failing) cat can cause misfires, depending on which exhaust bank - usually the cylinders at the back will develop buildup, etc. and cause a cel with a domino effect down the line...
look here for cat laws ..... http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/cata...er-laws-24337/ ....and here, for general cat info.... http://www.converterwarehouse.com/index.cfm ....if it is cat(s), depending on where you are and emissions laws, you have options for replacement ranging from ~$100 per cat to ~$1500 per bank (includes both cats) for the v6! ....or it could just be one or more bad o2 sensor!!!
....good luck!
- have you checked the turbo for leaks?.....
- have you purged the egr (see attached)? not necessarily the reason for the misfiring, but good to do if it has never been done - it's the vacuum system that helps with fuel/air mixture, etc. by ensuring gases are burned off before entering exhaust - while at it check all vacuum hoses for leaks as any would cause issues.....
- more importantly, check your exhaust manifold and particularly the cat(s)....your mechanic/exhaust shop can perform a back pressure test at your o2 sensors (on the v6 there are four of them, two on each exhaust bank, one before the front cats and one after the front cats) and determine if the cat(s) is the culprit (the v6 has two cats on each exhaust bank - four total!)....once a cat warms up it may not show symptoms as it does cold and MB is designed to warm up the cats to operating temps when you first start up the car....also, a plugged up (or partially plugged up, i.e failing) cat can cause misfires, depending on which exhaust bank - usually the cylinders at the back will develop buildup, etc. and cause a cel with a domino effect down the line...
look here for cat laws ..... http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/cata...er-laws-24337/ ....and here, for general cat info.... http://www.converterwarehouse.com/index.cfm ....if it is cat(s), depending on where you are and emissions laws, you have options for replacement ranging from ~$100 per cat to ~$1500 per bank (includes both cats) for the v6! ....or it could just be one or more bad o2 sensor!!!
....good luck!
Oh wow. Alright I'll try to digest these info later when I'm off work. But just a quick response I thought: My engine's a I4. It's a E200. 1998cc. I've checked my engine code number and found the corresponding full engine details on wikipedia:
<TABLE class=wikitable><TBODY><TR><TD>2.0 16V K</TD><TD>I4</TD><TD>163 PS (120 kW; 161 hp)</TD><TD>230 N·m (170 lb·ft)</TD><TD>M111.957</TD><TD>E200 Kompressor</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
07-06-2010, 11:34 PM
#4
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Just checked the EGR pdf, I'm not sure if I can locate this on my I4 Kompressor. The engine looks different.
Also, from the forum I read that if the cats are giving problem, it should give me a different ODB error? ie, CAT Threshold below efficiency or something?
Also, from the forum I read that if the cats are giving problem, it should give me a different ODB error? ie, CAT Threshold below efficiency or something?
07-07-2010, 12:00 AM
#5
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2001 E320 - RIP
yeah...sorry, i'm getting familiar with the v6 myself and it's gonna be different for your I4 engine, but same concept....my jeep with I6 has the egr solenoid as well, however it may not be used on the turbo, i am not sure!
.....cat error may have a higher threshold than the misfire error!.....again, back pressure can be tested at the o2 sensor to determine if o2 is bad or cat is faulty.
here is what your egr may look like....
.....cat error may have a higher threshold than the misfire error!.....again, back pressure can be tested at the o2 sensor to determine if o2 is bad or cat is faulty.
here is what your egr may look like....
Last edited by kbad; 07-07-2010 at 12:24 AM.
07-07-2010, 03:15 AM
#6
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190D 2.5 (x2), 190E 2.6, W202 C240,W202 C43 (C55), W210 E55, W212 E250CDI
because you're is an inline engine you will never get a bank 2 lean code, you don't have a second back of cylinders.
You need to check for air leaks (torn/split hoses) in the intake after the air mass meter. I doubt you will find any though.
If you still have the new AMM/MAF then refit it, clean the throttle body, disconnect you battery for about 30mins then reconnect, switch ignition on and leave on (without starting) for about 2mins. Or if you have a SDS then reset fuel mixtures and throotle body adaptations without doing the battery disconnect.
Clear any codes that remain, then retry your cold start over a few days and see how you go.
Just fitting a AMM/MAF without reseting the learnt mixture adaptations will make you think the fault still exists.
You need to check for air leaks (torn/split hoses) in the intake after the air mass meter. I doubt you will find any though.
If you still have the new AMM/MAF then refit it, clean the throttle body, disconnect you battery for about 30mins then reconnect, switch ignition on and leave on (without starting) for about 2mins. Or if you have a SDS then reset fuel mixtures and throotle body adaptations without doing the battery disconnect.
Clear any codes that remain, then retry your cold start over a few days and see how you go.
Just fitting a AMM/MAF without reseting the learnt mixture adaptations will make you think the fault still exists.
07-07-2010, 10:21 PM
#7
Junior Member
Thread Starter
because you're is an inline engine you will never get a bank 2 lean code, you don't have a second back of cylinders.
You need to check for air leaks (torn/split hoses) in the intake after the air mass meter. I doubt you will find any though.
If you still have the new AMM/MAF then refit it, clean the throttle body, disconnect you battery for about 30mins then reconnect, switch ignition on and leave on (without starting) for about 2mins. Or if you have a SDS then reset fuel mixtures and throotle body adaptations without doing the battery disconnect.
Clear any codes that remain, then retry your cold start over a few days and see how you go.
Just fitting a AMM/MAF without reseting the learnt mixture adaptations will make you think the fault still exists.
You need to check for air leaks (torn/split hoses) in the intake after the air mass meter. I doubt you will find any though.
If you still have the new AMM/MAF then refit it, clean the throttle body, disconnect you battery for about 30mins then reconnect, switch ignition on and leave on (without starting) for about 2mins. Or if you have a SDS then reset fuel mixtures and throotle body adaptations without doing the battery disconnect.
Clear any codes that remain, then retry your cold start over a few days and see how you go.
Just fitting a AMM/MAF without reseting the learnt mixture adaptations will make you think the fault still exists.
Whats a SDS?
I've only got a OBDII Scanner but during my last trip to the workshop, the car had a CEL after Fuel filter was replaced. I guess that was triggered due to delayed fuel coming in and the car kept cranking. So the mechanic used his Launch X31 on my W210. He didn't say what he was doing (some mechanics don't like to be questioned) but I saw the Launch X31 was doing some "Flashing" or "Programming". Can't remember the exact word on the screen. Would that have "reset" the fuel mixture adaptations as well?
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07-07-2010, 11:05 PM
#8
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Thread Starter
ah...SDS = Star Diagnosis System.... Nope I don't have it. One of the workshops I used to go, have the SDS. But nowadays many other workshops who work on Mercedes, only have Launch X31.
07-08-2010, 02:53 AM
#9
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190D 2.5 (x2), 190E 2.6, W202 C240,W202 C43 (C55), W210 E55, W212 E250CDI
the Launch X-431 is a pretty good all round system. It probably didn't reset the fuel mixtures, but I know it can reset the throttle body.
Try doing it via the battery disconnect method and see how you go.
Try doing it via the battery disconnect method and see how you go.
07-09-2010, 05:41 AM
#10
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Thread Starter
Does the W210 has any of such scary problems? Otherwise I'm only looking at re entering my code for the radio HU.
07-09-2010, 09:54 PM
#11
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Thread Starter
Spent this morning going over all the air intake path...from the air filter ducts tracing to a sensor-looking-thing (is that one of the O2 sensor?) and then to some metal block (I believe is the supercharger?) and there's this long duct going down behind the bumper and up the other side of the car, going thru the MAF and then into the engine. The ducts are all hard resin and the clips are all good. I see no loose connections.
Then I noticed a few straw size flexible hoses (believe it's vacuum hoses?) and they seems all good. I mean how do you see a leak unless it's real obvious....we won't get like oil leaking or any other signs. It's air going thru them only....isn't it?
After checking all is still good, I started the car (cold start). Noted the engine's symptoms again. The RPM seems to be hunting - going up and down, seems like it's trying to correct itself everytime the RPM is too low. The engine's stuttering when the RPM is low. This reminds me of my Benz 123 carburettor. Whenever cold start, the carb has a auto choke that helps to prevent the car from stalling when cold start. But when the engine is warm, the auto choke won't be activated and so RPM will be at optimal.
So using layman terms, it just seems like the "auto choke" on my W210 I4 engine is faulty! :crybaby2: What controls the "auto choke" equivalent? Is there a temp sensor somewhere that tells the engine that "oh it's a cold start, please set the idling higher for the next 1-2 mins".
I've called my mechanic to tell him about this problem and he suggests I leave the car with him for the next couple of days. Something I'm strongly against - because the last round, I towed the car to the workshop so that he has a cold engine to play with. And he almost did not touch the car (too busy) after I left the workshop. And when I returned after work, he said "no problems - all normal". So we started the car and immediately saw the car stuttering. He said "oh ... its misfiring". Sometimes I really dont' know if I'm being such a difficult client. Perhaps to workshops, having the CEL on every few weeks is something not important especially if the car is still very drivable.
Then I noticed a few straw size flexible hoses (believe it's vacuum hoses?) and they seems all good. I mean how do you see a leak unless it's real obvious....we won't get like oil leaking or any other signs. It's air going thru them only....isn't it?
After checking all is still good, I started the car (cold start). Noted the engine's symptoms again. The RPM seems to be hunting - going up and down, seems like it's trying to correct itself everytime the RPM is too low. The engine's stuttering when the RPM is low. This reminds me of my Benz 123 carburettor. Whenever cold start, the carb has a auto choke that helps to prevent the car from stalling when cold start. But when the engine is warm, the auto choke won't be activated and so RPM will be at optimal.
So using layman terms, it just seems like the "auto choke" on my W210 I4 engine is faulty! :crybaby2: What controls the "auto choke" equivalent? Is there a temp sensor somewhere that tells the engine that "oh it's a cold start, please set the idling higher for the next 1-2 mins".
I've called my mechanic to tell him about this problem and he suggests I leave the car with him for the next couple of days. Something I'm strongly against - because the last round, I towed the car to the workshop so that he has a cold engine to play with. And he almost did not touch the car (too busy) after I left the workshop. And when I returned after work, he said "no problems - all normal". So we started the car and immediately saw the car stuttering. He said "oh ... its misfiring". Sometimes I really dont' know if I'm being such a difficult client. Perhaps to workshops, having the CEL on every few weeks is something not important especially if the car is still very drivable.
Last edited by kianbeng; 07-09-2010 at 09:55 PM. Reason: better formatting for easier reading
