Why are MB vehicles so (too??) expensive? And, no, this is not a "troll" post. (more)
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Originally Posted by sprink49
OK... I'll stick mine in this for a bit. I am a Mechanical Engineer and am familiar with structural isuues such as dynamic torsional and tensile strength as well as torsional geometric force. Over time, these forces are acting upon all parts and systems in an automobile. The failure of automobiles with inferior design and engineering in these areas will inevetably fail prematurely.
At the end of the day only MB, BMW, Audi, Volvo and a few of the Bentlys and VW products excell in these engineering areas. Go to a salvage yard and look at cars that have been in total loss accidents and look at the "bones" of the cars. Toyotas/Lexus and Nissan/Infinity don't have the fundamental engineering that the German cars do.
The German cars have structural superiority in these areas of engineering that don't allow these aforementioned forces to act upon them as readily or have as much long term negative effect as others do.
Believe me...we get what we pay for in a better all around piece of equipment.
Drive a Honda Accord or Lexus/Toyota whatever for a week then get back in your E Class or S Class...then you will know.
At the end of the day only MB, BMW, Audi, Volvo and a few of the Bentlys and VW products excell in these engineering areas. Go to a salvage yard and look at cars that have been in total loss accidents and look at the "bones" of the cars. Toyotas/Lexus and Nissan/Infinity don't have the fundamental engineering that the German cars do.
The German cars have structural superiority in these areas of engineering that don't allow these aforementioned forces to act upon them as readily or have as much long term negative effect as others do.
Believe me...we get what we pay for in a better all around piece of equipment.
Drive a Honda Accord or Lexus/Toyota whatever for a week then get back in your E Class or S Class...then you will know.
LOL! This is the biggest piece of baloney I have ever read on an automotive forum. Would you care to back your statement up with facts?? Making very generalized statements without backing them up with facts is totally worthless and irrelevant. Where exactly did you get your "Engineering" degree from? Please inform us on exactly how the "dynamic torsional and tensile strength as well as torsional geometric forces" are superior in a Mercedes. Go to any junkyard and you will see the same proportion of Mercedes, BMW's, Volkswagens, etc., as any other manufacturer of foreign-produced cars.
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by sprink49
OK... I'll stick mine in this for a bit. I am a Mechanical Engineer and am familiar with structural isuues such as dynamic torsional and tensile strength as well as torsional geometric force. Over time, these forces are acting upon all parts and systems in an automobile. The failure of automobiles with inferior design and engineering in these areas will inevetably fail prematurely.
At the end of the day only MB, BMW, Audi, Volvo and a few of the Bentlys and VW products excell in these engineering areas. Go to a salvage yard and look at cars that have been in total loss accidents and look at the "bones" of the cars. Toyotas/Lexus and Nissan/Infinity don't have the fundamental engineering that the German cars do.
The German cars have structural superiority in these areas of engineering that don't allow these aforementioned forces to act upon them as readily or have as much long term negative effect as others do.
Believe me...we get what we pay for in a better all around piece of equipment.
Drive a Honda Accord or Lexus/Toyota whatever for a week then get back in your E Class or S Class...then you will know.
At the end of the day only MB, BMW, Audi, Volvo and a few of the Bentlys and VW products excell in these engineering areas. Go to a salvage yard and look at cars that have been in total loss accidents and look at the "bones" of the cars. Toyotas/Lexus and Nissan/Infinity don't have the fundamental engineering that the German cars do.
The German cars have structural superiority in these areas of engineering that don't allow these aforementioned forces to act upon them as readily or have as much long term negative effect as others do.
Believe me...we get what we pay for in a better all around piece of equipment.
Drive a Honda Accord or Lexus/Toyota whatever for a week then get back in your E Class or S Class...then you will know.
I understand the E class has a double thick passenger safety cage (i.e. double laminated layers of steel), as well as the latest in alloy technology for the suspension parts.. This is mechanically a far superior car than most.
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was '03 E320 - now - '04 S4
Originally Posted by rjm
LOL! This is the biggest piece of baloney I have ever read on an automotive forum. Would you care to back your statement up with facts?? Making very generalized statements without backing them up with facts is totally worthless and irrelevant. Where exactly did you get your "Engineering" degree from? Please inform us on exactly how the "dynamic torsional and tensile strength as well as torsional geometric forces" are superior in a Mercedes.
Our first Lexus has 168,000 miles on the odo and it is still tight as a drum. I'm not saying my W211 was a flexi-flyer - far from it. It did have a host of other issues though - primarily electronic in nature.
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From: West Palm Beach
2004 S500
Originally Posted by CE750
I understand the E class has a double thick passenger safety cage (i.e. double laminated layers of steel), as well as the latest in alloy technology for the suspension parts.. This is mechanically a far superior car than most.
Look at crash test results from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
http://www.hwysafety.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=10. Look at the results for rear impact as well as front and side.
Seriously...go to a junk yard and compare the guts of a German car to Japanese and American cars. I first saw this difference in a SL450 back in the '70's that a drug dealer had wraped around a tree during a 140 MPH police chase. The driver was killed but the car stayed together. I see local wrecks of "ricers" that hit poles and trees running 60~70 MPH that explode on impact. I have also seen BMW's and C32 AMG cars that some fool hits a tree or a building at high speed and lives to NOT do it again.
Personal observation. Several years ago, in Boca Raton, Fl, a Mercury (full size 4 door) with 6 passengers entered an intersection and was hit in a side impact collision by a driver in an E430 traveling in excess of 60 mph. The Mercury was cut in half by the impact and all 6 occupants were killed.Parts of the car were scattered over a full block. The driver of the E430 opened the door of his car and walked out with minor injuries. The windshield of the E class was not even broken and the safety cage was not compromised.
As for the "dynamics" in question. That was the net result of a discussion with a Mercedes Benz engineer at the Vance (Tuscaloosa, AL) assymbly plant 2 years ago. Maybe he knew what he was talking about...he had been with Daimler for over 30 years.
Last edited by sprink49; Nov 27, 2005 at 10:55 AM.
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From: Wash., D.C.
C280
Originally Posted by JWS3
The differences have narrowed considerably, which may explain recent sales figures and reliability debates. Based on what I see here on this board, and as much as it pains me to admit, I cannot help but think that Hondas etc will be up and running in 20 yrs while we MB owners hunt around in desperation for yet another failed module and the like. Adding insult to injury, the 80's 300Es will still be going strong....
Here is what struck me- Yes, MB is better, but the difference in materials/engineering seems to only account for perhaps 5-10K. Where did the other 20 go?? Profit? Huge labor costs?
Again, I am not here to bust on MB or re-start the Lexus/MB debate. Instead, I remain stunned by how much better the others have come while MB hasn't done as much. Never, ever thought I'd actually have a thought cross my mind as I drove a Subaru "Damn, trhis thing isn;t all that far from my Benz, why did I pay 2X as much for perhaps a 20% difference? Believe me, I didn't want to have those thoughts- just couldn't help it. My wife asked my if I was out in the cold too long when I mentioned my thoughts to her. SHe was also hopeful that my fascination w/ expensive cars would come down a notch or two!
Here is what struck me- Yes, MB is better, but the difference in materials/engineering seems to only account for perhaps 5-10K. Where did the other 20 go?? Profit? Huge labor costs?
Again, I am not here to bust on MB or re-start the Lexus/MB debate. Instead, I remain stunned by how much better the others have come while MB hasn't done as much. Never, ever thought I'd actually have a thought cross my mind as I drove a Subaru "Damn, trhis thing isn;t all that far from my Benz, why did I pay 2X as much for perhaps a 20% difference? Believe me, I didn't want to have those thoughts- just couldn't help it. My wife asked my if I was out in the cold too long when I mentioned my thoughts to her. SHe was also hopeful that my fascination w/ expensive cars would come down a notch or two!
When the Greeks invented Democracy they didn't know the outcome, but they documented their prosperity. The Greeks documented how a "free market" society benefited all (well, most). Fast forward to the post industrial revolution days and America, we've build up so much wealth that people can buy MBs, and other expensive cars; even if they don't need them. The Scion car is incredible for the $, a $23,000 honda accord is all one needs to get by, but yet people spend $40,000 on crap SUVs (MB excluded of course) and more on other cars. Our society just has money to waste, but one can say we work hard for a money to buy these products.
Lexus has stolen a lot of thunder from Mercedes, one thing to note you are putting MB up against the worlds best (Toy, Sub and Honda) Subaru has always made kick butt cars, they moved slowly into the "upscale" market, but their cars were always desired. All these auto makers have copied MB and BMW in an attempt to steal market share, and yes it's working, but they have worked for 20 years to get where MB is.
Maybe in a world without MBs we wouldn't work as hard and achieve so much, so we are back to this as a social issue. And yes, is the question is, is it worth it to spend $20,000 more ona "nicer" car, the people say yes. That's part of the benefit of living in a rich society. People can buy things they don't really need.
We can thank the ancient Greeks for our freedom and prosperity
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by lig
I was laughing too. His "facts" were as accurate as his spelling.
Our first Lexus has 168,000 miles on the odo and it is still tight as a drum. I'm not saying my W211 was a flexi-flyer - far from it. It did have a host of other issues though - primarily electronic in nature.
Our first Lexus has 168,000 miles on the odo and it is still tight as a drum. I'm not saying my W211 was a flexi-flyer - far from it. It did have a host of other issues though - primarily electronic in nature.
I too have noticed that Japanese cars don't age well. Whether it's the quality of the interiors, or the quality of the sheet metal or paint they use.. they tend to look ratty a lot earlier on than MB and BMW.. Maybe it's anecdotal, but I've seen it for myself.
The E is made of a lot of non-steel alloys, such as Aluminum, and Magneseium (usually found in aircraft) which is more than I can say for the "all steel" Lexus' and Honds' out there..
with that, the MB still weighs every bit or more than equal sized Japanese cars.. why? I'm not sure... thickness of the metal? Heavier chassis? Better quality interiors? I don't know... but I do know a MB the same size as a Japanese car is about 10-15% heavier..
Google the weights of these and see for yourself
S class vs. LS430
E class vs. ES300
C class vs. IS300
do the same with Infinity, or Honda products.. same conclusion.. and THIS IS WITH the aluminum advantage for the MB..
Where is the weight if not for in the superior structure? here is a 150mph head on that lead to the death of all inside the other car, while the MB occupants walk out of their respective doors!
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Originally Posted by CE750
I would guess the FACT that he's a mechanical engineer gives him some right to expert status, doesn't it? whether he chooses to type faster than he can spell, bares nothing on his personal observations being true of false.
I too have noticed that Japanese cars don't age well. Whether it's the quality of the interiors, or the quality of the sheet metal or paint they use.. they tend to look ratty a lot earlier on than MB and BMW.. Maybe it's anecdotal, but I've seen it for myself.
The E is made of a lot of non-steel alloys, such as Aluminum, and Magneseium (usually found in aircraft) which is more than I can say for the "all steel" Lexus' and Honds' out there..
with that, the MB still weighs every bit or more than equal sized Japanese cars.. why? I'm not sure... thickness of the metal? Heavier chassis? Better quality interiors? I don't know... but I do know a MB the same size as a Japanese car is about 10-15% heavier..
Google the weights of these and see for yourself
S class vs. LS430
E class vs. ES300
C class vs. IS300
do the same with Infinity, or Honda products.. same conclusion.. and THIS IS WITH the aluminum advantage for the MB..
Where is the weight if not for in the superior structure? here is a 150mph head on that lead to the death of all inside the other car, while the MB occupants walk out of their respective doors!
I too have noticed that Japanese cars don't age well. Whether it's the quality of the interiors, or the quality of the sheet metal or paint they use.. they tend to look ratty a lot earlier on than MB and BMW.. Maybe it's anecdotal, but I've seen it for myself.
The E is made of a lot of non-steel alloys, such as Aluminum, and Magneseium (usually found in aircraft) which is more than I can say for the "all steel" Lexus' and Honds' out there..
with that, the MB still weighs every bit or more than equal sized Japanese cars.. why? I'm not sure... thickness of the metal? Heavier chassis? Better quality interiors? I don't know... but I do know a MB the same size as a Japanese car is about 10-15% heavier..
Google the weights of these and see for yourself
S class vs. LS430
E class vs. ES300
C class vs. IS300
do the same with Infinity, or Honda products.. same conclusion.. and THIS IS WITH the aluminum advantage for the MB..
Where is the weight if not for in the superior structure? here is a 150mph head on that lead to the death of all inside the other car, while the MB occupants walk out of their respective doors!
BTW...I see rjm and lig are still at it. Two current non-MB owners talking about the engineering credentials of an S owner and his spelling talents. As Ronald Reagan would say "there they go again..." LOL
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From: West Palm Beach
2004 S500
This is along the line of "you pay your money and you make your choice".
I guess a good comparison would be...do you buy your wife a diamond ring with a GIA certified stone or a CZ? Both sparkle but....
Or...how do Rolex and Breitling stay in business when a Timex tells time also?
I guess a good comparison would be...do you buy your wife a diamond ring with a GIA certified stone or a CZ? Both sparkle but....
Or...how do Rolex and Breitling stay in business when a Timex tells time also?
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by Nevada Jack
Is that a police car that was demolished..I see what looks like "POL" on the door?
BTW...I see rjm and lig are still at it. Two current non-MB owners talking about the engineering credentials of an S owner and his spelling talents. As Ronald Reagan would say "there they go again..." LOL
BTW...I see rjm and lig are still at it. Two current non-MB owners talking about the engineering credentials of an S owner and his spelling talents. As Ronald Reagan would say "there they go again..." LOL
This wasn't a head on with some Russian particle-board Lada, but a modern design steel safety cage police car (RIP).
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by sprink49
This is along the line of "you pay your money and you make your choice".
I guess a good comparison would be...do you buy your wife a diamond ring with a GIA certified stone or a CZ? Both sparkle but.... Or...how do Rolex and Breitling stay in business when a Timex tells time also?
I guess a good comparison would be...do you buy your wife a diamond ring with a GIA certified stone or a CZ? Both sparkle but....
Or...how do Rolex and Breitling stay in business when a Timex tells time also? 
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2005 C320wz
buying a car sometimes is an emotional decision. I mean, some people would change cars after 5000 miles. Practical people would opt to buy cars with excellent reliability history that cost less and people who opt to buy the cars that they love are willing to pay more and take their chances.
Last edited by mick1; Nov 27, 2005 at 11:52 AM.
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2005 C320wz
Originally Posted by CE750
I've made many-a-watch comparisons for rjm et.al. to no avail.. he doesn't get it.
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From: Hertfordshire, UK
ML 320 CDI
Originally Posted by mick1
If you take price out of the equation, there's a matter of mechanical vs Quartz vs waveceptor (atomic) too. Some people might question why buy a precision mechanical watch when the Quartz and waveceptor watches are far more accurate
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was '03 E320 - now - '04 S4
Originally Posted by CE750
I would guess the FACT that he's a mechanical engineer gives him some right to expert status, doesn't it?
c'mon Sam - the only "fact" in evidence so far is that this guy *claims* to be an M.E. You guys were so quick to accuse a board member of not actually being an owner yet you accept this claim immediately. Please.
Not to stereotype, but the engineers I know are all very precise people. Precise in their language. Meticulous about their work. None of my pals who are engineers would ever post something that contained multiple spelling and grammatical errors.
That guy using a discussion with someone who worked at the Alabama M-B facility?!? That plant only cranked out the worst examples of any vehicle to ever wear the three pointed star. All he referenced was anecdotal evidence - he hasn't posted any actual facts.
There is nothing wrong with posting personal observations -just make sure they are labeled as such.
Last edited by lig; Nov 27, 2005 at 01:49 PM.
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From: Naples, FL
2025 AMG CLE53, 2025 Range Rover P550E, 2025 Ford F150 Raptor
Anybody else here notice that all these forum comparisons and question asking are all comparing some other manufacturer's vehicle to the MB?
Everything else is compared to the MB...they set the standard, the bar, the moonshot.
Everything else is compared to the MB...they set the standard, the bar, the moonshot.
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2004 E500
You are right--but need to ask yourself why this is happening (more)
Originally Posted by PHXATC
Anybody else here notice that all these forum comparisons and question asking are all comparing some other manufacturer's vehicle to the MB?
Everything else is compared to the MB...they set the standard, the bar, the moonshot.
Everything else is compared to the MB...they set the standard, the bar, the moonshot.
As I see it, The comparisons are here because MB's once vaunted superiority and durability are very much at issue and in dispute. While it once ruled the automotive landscape, there are increasing perceptions and observations that the disparity between MB and the others is no longer anywhere near what it once once. With great reluctance (kicking and screaming???) I came to this conclusion myself after having the occasion to drive competing makes--cars that I ordinarily would never even mention in the same sentence or even on the same day as MB!!
These comparisons are happening because MB's edge isn't what it once was. Many are asking themselves if so-so reliability, iffy electronics, crappy reliability ratings are enough to justify the perceived prestige of the 3 pointed star, especially since competing makes have evolved to the point where the law of diminish returns has again reared its ugly head. All of sudden many are asking why one should pay 2X the price for a 15% better car. When the difference was 2X the price for 3X the car one didn't see and hear what we have now.
And, again, I write this an enthusiast and owner of German cars for some 10 years. Hard conclusion to reach, but one I couldn't avoid.
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I've heard that Mercedes-Benz cars are manufactured from a superior steel that was developed during the V-2 programs shortly before the end of WWII, and the formulas were captured by the Russians and subsequently bought by the post-war Mercedes-Benz Corporation with dollars procured from the Chrysler Corporation shortly after the end of the war. This steel is the strongest in the world and is far superior to any steel used in the Japanese cars. The Japanese have been using re-manufactured steel from Japanese Zero boneyards for decades and this steel is infinitly inferior. The only reason Mercedes is having massive quality control problems with electronic and electronic modules is because MB-West Germany has been infiltrated by Japanese agents who have subverted and sabotaged the manufacturing processes of these components. My Master's Degree is in Structural Engineering and my minor is in World History so I know this to be true.
Last edited by rjm; Nov 27, 2005 at 07:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by sprink49
You forgot to mention the theory of the motion of the spontaneous overflow. It can be found in Chapter 8 of the Toyota/Lexus QC proceedures manual.
Lies, nothing happens unless it's on purpose in a Toyota!
Have you noticed, that almost every thing that can open in an LS430 (the glove compartment, the sunglasses thing, and all the little cubby holes and what not) open at the same speed?
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From: FL410
'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by rjm
I've heard that Mercedes-Benz cars are manufactured from a superior steel that was developed during the V-2 programs shortly before the end of WWII, and the formulas were captured by the Russians and subsequently bought by the post-war Mercedes-Benz Corporation with dollars procured from the Chrysler Corporation shortly after the end of the war. This steel is the strongest in the world and is far superior to any steel used in the Japanese cars. The Japanese have been using re-manufactured steel from Japanese Zero boneyards for decades and this steel is infinitly inferior. The only reason Mercedes is having massive quality control problems with electronic and electronic modules is because MB-West Germany has been infiltrated by Japanese agents who have subverted and sabotaged the manufacturing processes of these components. My Master's Degree is in Structural Engineering and my minor is in World History so I know this to be true.
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Originally Posted by sprink49
...and you know that years of research went into the study of the rate of opening and it's influence on perceived quality. 
Brand loyalists, they're everywhere! :p
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From: Sydney, Australia
W203 slightly modified
Originally Posted by ricky.agrawal
You're absolutley right. Our W220 that spends more time on a lift, is obviously a better built car than every other automobile made, simply because it's got a star on the hood right?
Brand loyalists, they're everywhere! :p
Brand loyalists, they're everywhere! :p
