Duckhook50

Can I change the oil filter on my E500 without changing the oil? I have the FSS and it seems to me that changing the filter half way thru makes some sense.

mcleantmw

Yes, you can do that if you want.............it's easily accessible in the front of the engine compartment. I have my engine oil and filter changed every 5k - 6k miles.......just my personal preference on both my Benz and Volvo.

Jen_Kenne

Yes. You'll have to top off the oil level when you change the filter. I'm not sure what advantage you would have with this approach. The filter catches the larger particulate matter. Smaller particulate matter, acids, combustion by-products, etc. are in suspension in the oil. I like McLeantmw's approach - change oil and filters every five or six thousand miles. These long service intervals are due to federal regulations and cost calculations, not on sound engineering.

lkchris

But, it makes no sense at all.

Mercedes is the world's best engineered car, and the oil filter capacity is just fine for recommended oil change intervals.

But, it does less harm than changing all the oil early.

mcleantmw

Ikchris.........what scientific evidence can you provide that changing a vehicle's oil and filter earlier than every 10k - 12k miles is harmful to the engine? Every mechanic I've ever talked with during the 46 years I've owned vehciles says it's good to change the oil sooner than what the vehicle manufacturer's max recommendation is. When you change an engine's oil, you replace the contaminated oil with fresh oil without contaminates.........if it's done more frequently, as I do every 5k-6k miles, why would you think fresh oil is harmful to an internal combustion engine? At the absolute minimum if one thinks there is little harm (wear & tear) to an engine by changing the oil at 10k - 12k miles, there is even less of that by changing it every 5k - 6k miles, and your objection could be that I'm just wasting my money by doing so. So, I'm just curious, please provide some logic for your statement "But, it does less harm than changing all the oil early."

Diesel Benz

I'm not sure about his scientific evidence but I'm referring to the scientific evidence engine experts are giving here. If you search for posts about oil analysis etc. you can find that it takes some time before oil additives activate fully on modern synthetic oils. It then takes a huge amount of miles before the oil performance starts to degrade to the level the oil performance during the first few hundred miles.

The engine runs some time without proper oil pressure after each oil change but I've understood that this is less of an issue compared to the issue with additives.

But please do not listen to me or others who don't know hard facts (lkchris may well know), read posts and evidence from the real experts, you can find several threads from this W211 forum.

Jen_Kenne

Agreed

Agreed.

I don't see how you reach this conclusion. What harm - other than the waste of money - could be done?

vettdvr

If you want to change your oil early then go ahead and do it!.

If you want to change when Mercedes engineers claim you should do, then do it.

But if you want data. Try this.

I think you will note that Mobile 1 has more wear in the 1st 3000 miles than the remaining 11000 or so miles. Just check the data.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/s.../oil-life.html

For me I change when the FSS states it is time. At 85,000 miles using only Mobile 1 0w40 European formula and MB fleece filters my car still does not require adding oil between 13,000 mile changes and still drives like a new car. But if you really want to change oil at 6000 feel free to do so.

lkchris

Time to learn some 21st century engineering, Mercedes style.

Your mek-a-nics were right 20 years ago. Today--in the 21st century--they are wrong.

And there is indeed something wrong about changing oil every 3K miles--it's bad for your engine.

Please try to resist bringing "smallblock" or "mouse motor" knowledge to your Mercedes experience. It's 100% irrelevant.

Read and learn

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=15

vettdvr

Interesting post. It aligns with the link I posted. Both claim increased wear in the first 3000 to 5000 miles and the wear decreases as the oil is run longer.

Jen_Kenne

Forums are about opinions, rarely backed with facts. This post is an interesting opinion, but it is also unsupported. Perhaps there is a white paper from Mobil, Amsoil, or another oil vendor with some empirical data.

vettdvr

Apparently you didn't follow the link to the Mobile 1 analysis. Check it out.

Jen_Kenne

Apparently you didn't read with comprehension, for there is nothing from the manufacturer in your link.

Don't worry though, I have written to Mobil. Perhaps we'll have an answer we can believe.

Jen_Kenne

This is the dialog with ExxonMobil at mobilproducts@ourdataworks.com

Q: Is there any evidence that changing oil soon than the manufacturer of the car causes increased wear?

A: No, that should be fine.

Q: Could you please elaborate on your answer? Perhaps there is a technical paper on the topic of early oil changes?

A: No, their is not technical paper that is approved by the API on this subject and that is accepted. ExxonMobil does not believe for any reason performing quicker oil changes on an automobiles will cause increased wear in any way.

-MJ

djoslin

Great grammar/spelling in the response from ExxonMobil. I would certainly not trust anything coming from a company representative with that education level.

To me independent test data is much more relevant than data from a manufacturer (can't really even call what ExxonMobil provided data), especially independent test data from multiple sources. ExxonMobil is in business to sell oil...of course they're going to be fine selling twice as much to you.

I also take issue with this statement you made - "These long service intervals are due to federal regulations and cost calculations, not on sound engineering." Where did you get this information? If it were the case, why would a 13k service interval only apply to Mercedes Benz? Do the Feds have different standards for German manufacturers? Cost calculations...for who? The owner? Mercedes makes more money if we change our oil on a more frequent basis since that would mean more service visits. I'm raising the flag on this one.

Me, I'm going to go by the manufacturer recommended interval which (so far) seems to be backed by independent testing.

AsianML

Have an UOA done at 10k miles and you should see that 10k is more than fine for Mercedes engines.

A member on another forum I'm on has had UOAs done at 10-12k miles for his Chrysler minivan which has run on Mobil 1 0W-40 for most of its life found that the 10k interval for that engine (which wasn't even designed and engineered to run specifically on synthetic) was more than acceptable.

Jen_Kenne

Other uses of the flag come to mind. However, if you wish to believe that early oil changes are harmful, then by all means do so, and put your belief into practice.

One post. Hmm. Troll? LOL

Duckhook50

While most of you seem to have missed the point of my original question entirely, which was, "is there a benefit to changing the filter earlier than the recommended 13,000 interval", if you do happen to take the time to read one of the threads that linked to a long interval test (18,000 miles), the data from the oil analysis performed by Blackstone lab did recommend changing the filter at regular intervals to remove the insoluable contaminates.

Jen_Kenne

220S

fwiw, doing a UOA will give you the info you need and peace of mind. It's not expensive. When I used to track my cars (not MBs) oil quality was imperative esp with air cooled dry sump motors (theoretically 'oil cooled' motors.)

Here's some info from someone with whom I have had personal experience. Although it's Porsche-centric, it's still a worthwhile read (and also someone who can do your UOA for you) He is a Northwestern grad engineer and well-known in Porsche motorsports. (LN Engineering mfgs custom cylinders, rods, and pistons all in-house.)

Click on "lubricants." http://www.lnengineering.com/index.html

Failure to use the right oil, use proper filtration, or observe proper changing intervals can affect the performance of even the best motor oil. This also includes changing the oil too often (needlessly bad for the environment and your wallet) or not often enough. Against conventional wisdom, engine wear decreases as oil ages to a certain extent, which means that changing your oil more frequently actually causes engine wear; these findings were substantiated by studies conducted by the auto manufacturers and petroleum companies, leading to drain intervals increased from 3,000mi/3 months to 5,000-7,500mi/6 months in most domestic vehicles, using mostly non-synthetic oils. Based off of extremely long drain intervals recommended by most European manufacturers, some in excess of two years and 20,000 mi, some users have found it best to reduce those intervals by half or even a quarter. Porsche for the 2008MY has reduced their extended drain intervals significantly to one year/12,000 mi, which is actually less miles than Porsche recommended back in the 1990s with 964 and 993 based aircooled 911s. Based on UOAs provided to us by our customers, new Porsche owners should consider reducing their drain intervals further to no more than 9,000 mi or one year and some shops recommend changes every 5,000-6,000 mi or six months.

Anyway, YMMV.
No pun intended.

Jen_Kenne

Excellent link. Navarro's discussion of UOA is interesting, leading to the answer for oil change interval as -- it all depends. Good, empirical work.

220S

And I think that's really what people should try to keep in mind: 'it all depends.'

btw, he has the VOA of most oils (and will provide you with yours free of charge if he doesn't have it on hand.) You can't use the info from a UOA without having the VOA as your reference.

For those interested, yet don't want to read through the somewhat lengthy info, here's the gist of it (and with the caveat that he is a Porsche specialist, not a MB/AMG expert) But understand that auto mfgs don't know exactly how you might be driving/using your car. Note that MB does use 'recommend' when it addresses oil and drain intervals. And always bear in mind certain guidelines while under warranty.
______________________________________

Vehicles with track time or sustained high oil temperatures or RPMs should have their oil changed after every event (or every other event). This translates to a total of about 10 hours max, with vehicles with 12 qt or higher oil capacities- engines with smaller capacities must be changed more often. Vehicles subjected to very short drives or sustained operation in heavy traffic should indeed be serviced more often. Likewise, vehicles not driven often but driven hard a few times a year can probably go a year between oil changes.

Regular used oil analysis is the best way to determine ideal drain intervals for your driving habits - one good rule of thumb I have seen quoted is to change the oil with the TBN (total base number) is reduced by 50% of the original total (requiring you to also know your oil's virgin TBN).

Another common recommendation is to change the oil once it's TAN (total acid number) equals the TBN. Other factors to consider are fuel dilution and shearing out of grade when determining your drain interval. With this knowledge in hand, using a quality motor oil with proper filtration and regular service is the best thing to do for your engine and to protect your investment.

Used oil analysis is a valuable part of determining proper drain intervals and keeping an eye on the overall health of your engine. I now exclusively use Staveley Services North America for my VOA (virgin oil analysis) and UOA (used oil analysis) testing. Once you have a VOA for a baseline of the oil you are using, a good rule of thumb for determining your drain interval is to change the oil when the TBN has been reduced to 50% of the original amount, unless testing deems an oil change is required earlier.

This is more conservative than other recommendations to change the oil when the TBN is as low as 1 or 2. This means you should do a VOA of the oil you are using and you should order your oil tests with the optional TBN analysis to make that determination. If also testing for the TAN (Total Acid Number), when the TBN equals the TAN, then that is also an indicator that your oil needs to be changed.

In most cases, changing the oil at about half the recommended drain interval is a safe recommendation of how often your oil should be changed. In some cases, a manufacturers severe drain interval is exactly this, half the normal drain interval.

If switching labs, it is always good to have a control sample with results from each lab, from the same bottle, as not always can you compare results from different labs.

MJ50

same here... i change every 5k miles...

Jen_Kenne

That works for me. I use a pgm called Automotive Wolf to track such things. Some things are deductible and others not.