stanatl

Having not ever owned an MB before (I have a W212 on order) I've stayed out of the back and forth that has been going on between yourself (and others) and some current W212 owners. While trying to be objective, I really don't understand why you continue to post negative comments on the W212 site. Everyone understands that you don't like the W212 design, among other things, and really love your W211. It does get pretty repetitive to read what are basically the same comments in different formats.

Having owned a BMW for the past 3 years, you don't find prior vintage owners on the e60forum ragging on the e60. There may be e60 owners (or potential owners) discussing problems or negative issues about the car but what is served by an e39 owner constantly posting about how much (any why) they don't like the e60.

I'm not saying that everything on the W212 site should be positive. What emilner is going through with his car is very negative but is totally appropriate for the site. There's good and bad in every car and all should be discussed. Repetitive negative posts by someone who doesn't even own the car just somehow doesn't compute for me. One or two to express you opinion - fine. Ongoing negative comments just seem to be somewhat "in your face". Just my $0.02.

ipp

I think they look pretty decent both of them, the E has a issue with it's butt, which can be cured with the AMG lip. And the 5 has the nose of a anteater, hopefully curable with the M-Aero.

I'm really curious to see the 5 irl.

ESIX3POWER

IMO the Benz is so much more sexier and athletic looking. The front end of the BENZ absolutley blows away the ugly flat nose of the 5er.. The side view of the 5er is like a 3 series, same lines where as the new E has distinct lines and the arched rear panel which separates it self from the C. Ive grown to love the tails of the new E. Hey what can I say, I wouldnt have paid the $$$ if I didnt love the car. Most impressively the new E handles! and if you want to cruise,set it in C and ride on clouds.

ESIX3POWER

Stanatl - You will love the new E.. Feel like riding tight? throw the car in Sport and enjoy the balanced chasis and handling. Its the best handling non AMG E class ever. Feel like just cruising to a comfy cush ride, throw it in C and turn up the 14 speaker 610 watt HK stereo and enjoy. The car has striking looks and is built like a tank. Just close the door shut and you will now what I mean. The 30% + rigid factor and d/c is tremendous, the car is always well planted and secure. The car is as quiet as a church at idle and packs a punch with the 550 motor. Not sure if youre getting the 350 or 550 but you should enjoy either one.

stanatl

Thanks for the reply. I'm getting am E550 sport. What you describe was my opinon when I test drove the car - and I drove it pretty hard in a number of conditions. That's why I wound up deciding to get one. It doesn't drive like my 550i sport but I knew that going in. I felt it handled just fine for me, was quicker and quieter than my BMW and had pleanty of hi-tech goodies (which I like). I actually test drove a W211 V8 when back in the end of 2006 before I ordered by e60 and thought it had a very floaty drive - much different than the W212.

aeggroup

I've got my new E only one week, but I must admit - you forget about bad design spots of this car when you drive it. I did not like the rear of E, and still don't like it and that's why I wanna put wider wheels on it. But this car drives so amazing..and I have not even tried sport mode yet ..it’s too early ( 500 miles on speedo )....
I really like how new 5 series looks and I don't mind it looks the same like 3 series from the side ( at least on a pic ). I'm sure in person 5 will look amazing, but MB has its own nice spots ...
Anyway...whoever can afford to drive any of those brand new models are lucky guys .....enjoy it.....

K-A

Actually, multiply me by 10, and seven years ago, BMW Forums were engulfed with "me's" posting their feelings about the E60. Passion in things you deem as art is not a bad thing, if I was trolling it would be another story, but I'm not, if you think I am, so be it. Plus, I'm posting all this in the 5'er Thread, so it's the appropriate Thread on the 212 Board.

Lol. Anteater nose made me laugh. Poor BMW can't get away with making a nose that doesn't get named after some form of creature.

Man, you and I just have the most different taste in cars out of anyone I think I've ever conversed with. Nothing wrong with that of course but wow. I would never use the descriptive term "sexy" for the 212, the whole design doesn't even try to be that. It's a very conservative, masculine, very angular, "business" looking car, and the rear is meant to convey anything but sexiness IMO. The front I can understand where you're coming from, however the disproportionate and clunky headlights and overly sharp character ruin it for me personally.

I think the new 5 is far more athletic looking, and sexy than the 212 without comparison, but to each their own. I think the 212 is meaner looking, more "mature" in the sense that I think people of a more mature age would be more interested in it (however that's mostly just an M-B VS BMW thing), polarizing, staunch, "solid/tank-like" inspiring, etc.

K-A

Definitely don't disagree with you there. I've driven a few and am always so impressed, drives like my car which I already enjoy, but better. If I owned one I'm sure the positives would make me warm up to the negatives, but I've always been too focused on the vanity of cars, I need to really be able to personally love the design.

Congrats on the new whip though. You really changed characters with these cars, lol. Went from a white 211, which is just an elegant, classy and almost "sensuous" car, to a black W212, which is a masculine, relatively imposing (from the front) approach.

K-A

To add, people bringing up handling, etc. This is where the 5 DOMINATES, and the F10 is apparently supposed to up the ante huge, so if you think a 212 handles great, you'll be completely mesmerized by the 5's. That's why I say, if the BMW can beat the 212's interior quality, M-B is screwwed.

Also, the lines on the side of the 3 and 5 are not in any way "identical", the 212 and 204 have the same downward crease on the doors, in fact, every M-B has them, the 212's is just far boxier and straight-cut than the others. The rear hump is unique, but that's very much a love it or hate it thing, and the rear is also unique, but the worst in M-B's model family. So I think we can all point out similarities between the families.

ipp

There are other aspects of handling too. I'm driving a M-Sport E61 530dA today, and it handles great in terms of taking corners quickly and communicative steering, which are things I love. What I don't love is the RFT:s and the brain crushing bounces I get when I'm driving over small potholes or water drains and etc. To me the the W212 with AMG-package and D/C sport chassie felt as good as my current E61 and so much better in the comfort aspect. As many others said, S-Class like, but still dynamic, almost sporty. Will see soon when I get the car...

Rowrbazzle

No, I understand design language. I think it's best when it primarily flows down, though, and not up. You'd rather your car look like something more expensive than the other way around. If the 5 looks like they stretched the 3 more than they shrunk the 7, then I'd say that's a negative. That's subjective, though, and I really can't say. Either way, all three look a lot alike. I hope the 5 does have more presence in person than it does in the pictures - that'd help get rid of the "stretched 3" image some people seem to have. Pictures don't always do cars justice - like with the 212.

Of course BMW has always seemed to have much more (overt) similarity in their designs than MB does in theirs. It really seemed like they made three mostly identical cars, just of varying size. For some reason the style worked well in the 3 (until recently) and somewhat in the 7, but it never worked as well for me in the 5.

After looking at 220S's pictures, I'd say the 212 looks more like the S-class than the C-class.

The similarities between the 204 and 212 are nowhere near those of the 3 and 5 Series or 203 and 211. Unless of course you ignore the front and back. I'm not really sure it's worth arguing about, though, as you clearly have different views than I. I feel like I'm reading Skip Bayless write about Mercedes.

K-A

Yeah I agree the E60 is too harsh, I prefer the ride of my 211 over it by far. However I mean in terms of sport/handling. The 212 has a more precise handling "feel" over the 211, but performs identically on the track, lateral G's, skidpad, etc. So they did dial it in better, but definitely not night and day, which is a good thing.... M-B kept the Luxury feeling intact, yet added a bit more confidence to it, IMO it's mostly in the actual steering and the added solidity of the chassis/overall car. Although I do like the heavier feeling in my car as well, as another poster his E550's steering feels over-boosted, like too light and fickle at high speeds.

The F10 is supposed to set the bar yet again handling wise, it'll be no contest VS the E in terms of spirited/Sport driving, I'm hoping it'll be a bit Luxurious as well.

K-A

Well, BMW's current design theme is all about subtleness, so the differences won't be as in your face or noticeable. M-B's this time around is adding different gimmicks and strong controversial aspects for each of their cars, for better or worse, depending on who you ask.

I think the E looks like a cross between the 204 and 221 with its own elements, in fact I think the 204 resembles a mini 221 in some ways, which it's supposed to.... That's how M-B will sell them well.

The 3 isn't my cup of tea neither, but it's a winning design Sales-wise (absolutely slaughters the newer W204 in Sales), not that that means anything in the definitive "nice car/nice design" way, or in a car enthusiasts sense, but obviously BMW doesn't see it resembling a 3 as a bad thing.

All I have to say is, when pics of the 212 were launched people were short of vomiting, including some buyers of it now, many negative aspects were pointed out. Naturally, as it's an M-B, people will accept it, and as it's a new car, people will naturally change their opinions as if they're in the market and want a Benz, they gotta learn to like it, and it's polarizing/controvertial-ish, so you have haters and lovers.

Hard to really point out design flaws on the 5, if "bigger 3-Series" is all the nay-sayers can come up with, it's already way ahead of the 212. Once we see it on the road and get BMW's full idea and its presence, it'll be a whole new ballgame.

Wig

KA - You'll still buy a W212 over a 5er!

K-A

Lol. Unless my taste buds go through a major takeover, I doubt it.

mbchris

That doesn't make sense - wouldn't that be hypocritical? If they didn't like the car, why would they have bought it in the first place?

ESIX3POWER

Aside from having a very close resemblence to the 3 series, I cant get over the front end. It appears very Volvoish and is FLAT ? I dont know if its just the photos but the front end is ugly. On the other hand, the front of the E is striking and looks much better than the front of the 5er.

K-A

I understand what you're saying. I think the front of the 5 is gonna be the most polarizing aspect, or the biggest potential "deal breaker" angle, like the rear of the 212.

A BMW rep on another Message board stated that the EU Regs have really messed up the front designs of all Euro cars, as the older models had a lot more freedom to be designed according to how the designers felt they should look. BMW has succumbed to this. He however stated that M-B was willing to spend TONS of R&D money on the 212 (on the raising bonnet when hitting a pedestrian, etc.) to allow it to pass regulations, however still have at least a slight slant to the grille (it is a lot more flat than the outgoing model, but they made it look purposeful well). Also as you notice, all new Euro cars (especially the 212) have VERY low sloping hoods, I don't really like the look too much, but aside from that, it just CAN'T be safe for American streets with high SUVS that can literally just go right over.

He also stated that cars like the W204 C-Class don't get that $$ R&D treatment, so they work with the blunt face, which actually works with the Star grille, but looks terrible and awkward with the "Luxury" grille.

My eyes just can't make sense of the 212's front enough for me to like it, and I find it, namely the headlights to be non-harmonious, however, I do think it has a striking effect in the right angles, and doubtlessly most people will find it more interesting to look at than the 5's, at least initially (I think the 5's will age better).

gaazmon

Leave it to the EU to ruin things such as nice front designs, fast cars with big engines, etc. Unfortunately the US, with the way things are going, is beginning to follow what the EU is doing. Hopefully, it doesn't happen.

Rowrbazzle

Perhaps folks aren't short of vomiting, but I think plenty of people (in this thread) have pointed out flaws in the new 5. Just as you point out flaws in the 212 and people point out flaws in the 211 and everything other car. If you ask enough people you'll find there are flaws in every design. It's all a matter of perspective.

K-A

True that. I personally think the 5's design is far more flawless than the 212's, the 212's is meant to either be "understood", or it just looks like a big mess. Some designs are just obviously more cohesive on a "global" scale per-se, and some are much more controversial in that aspect. An example would be the last 5-Series, which I think the 212 is modeled after in the sense of how M-B wanted it to kind of spawn a bit of controversy.

What I was saying though, is when the 212 was first leaked, 99% of the comments were hugely negative, the 5's is far far more positive, obviously an M-B Board will have its opinions, but even here most Threads on the 5 are a lot more positive than how people viewed the 212 on for example, a BMW Board. On other Boards, the car is also receiving a much more positive reception than the 212 did.

Again, to each their own, design is subjective, and all I can do is preach my views on it.

I'm just really happy that in this day and age of "transformer" like, puzzling vehicles, BMW lashes out at the preposterous trend they started (EVERYONE is copying them, including M-B, they re-revolutionized car design with the hideous Bangle era) and goes back to creating a very pure, smooth, and "organic" design.

What will be interesting is if BMW shot themselves in the foot by going too extreme, then obviously with no where to go after that, and going back to simplicity and refining their quirky designs, will people still be on board?

Bubbaboy

Yo K-A I mean this as a compliment not a put down...Are you a Lawyer or plan on being one?

JD

K-A

I appreciate the compliment Bubbaboy Not really, but something tells me if I ever got myself to be able to actually study my **** off long enough to pass the bar I'd make a decent one.

gaazmon

LSAT is this saturday

bonboon

i'm partial to this side view, personally.