J P

The SC430 has sold more than the entire CLK cabriolet line (source: AutoSite: Market Report, Sales Volume), despite costing as much or more than all but the CLK55 AMG in the CLK line.

The LS430 actually heavily outsold the S-Class in 2002 (again, AutoSite: Market Report, Sales Volume). I know the S-Class costs noticeably more so the fact the LS430 outsold it in 2002 may not be the most impressive feat.

Lexus has 5 non-SUV lines, so that 3 of the 5 sell well relatively is not at all bad.

From all the professional reviews, I do not believe many share the sentiment that M-B is almost as good as BMW in driving dynamics. It is good, but neither M-B nor Lexus are considered true threats to BMW in handling.

I am not a member of ClubLexus, I spend my car forum time mainly on E46Fanatics (BMW enthusiasts' site). I used to be a BMW driver.

J P

I'm Canadian, our IS300 has more std equipment than our C230 K sedan.

IS300 1/4 mile times:
auto, 15.7 s (avg time of 6 magazine tests)
manual, 15.4 s (Car & Driver, Feb/02; Road & Track, July/02)

C230 K sedan 1/4 mile times:
manual, 16.2 s (MotorTrend, July/03)

It also handles better & has shorter stopping distances, not only from magazine tests but also from Consumer Reports testing (which actually tested the C320 sedan, not the C230 K sedan). As I stated, performance = acceleration, handling, & braking IMO, not just power (in which case, the IS300 is faster anyways).

Is this little shot supposed to infer a lack of size in a certain area between Japanese & German men. It may be construed as such by many. If it is meant as what it seems to be suggesting, then it is inappropriate & not acceptable.

W210

Criticism at Lexus because of you bringing up your biased opinion here stating the above.

You reminded me of an unpopular guy crashing into a jazz music concert trying to convince everyone how country music is better. Rather unsocialable and pointless. And I would feel the same if I go to Lexus board and criticize on how horrible the leather in Japanese cars smells.

Go and have fun feeling great driving your Lexus and continue to believe that Lexus cars are as safe as MB. Just don't expect most of us here to agree. We could well have bought Lexus unfortunately, it is inferior as a total package which is why we picked the MB.

You will never quite understand the driving feel of a MB with your limited experience, compared to most of us. I personally prefer the driving feel of a VW over a Lexus.

W210

Thanks GTIDAN, I would not be surprised if the IS300 doesn't have a bunch of safety features standard in the C230.

J P

Uh, people here were bashing Lexus BEFORE I posted anything in this thread.

Again, when have I stated the Lexus brand is better than M-B? Essentially, you're saying Lexus owners have no right to come onto this board & defend the brand when M-B owners are bashing it. If what I'm doing is ridiculous, then maybe it is also ridiculous that everyone here was bashing Lexus in the first place, prior to me having posted ANYTHING in this thread.

Again, in my price point the only M-B sedan alternative is the C230 K sedan. Gov't crash testing has shown the IS300 is equal to it, or better, in all of their testing. I have not stated Lexus is safer than M-B, but to suggest that my notion that the IS300 is as safe as the C230 K sedan is foolhardy is unfounded. You have no empirical evidence other than your opinion, while I have gov't crash test scores. It is equivalent to scientists conducting studies w/ data, compared to a layman saying that doesn't count because their opinion says so.

As I stated, I agree that many people do buy Lexus over M-B because it is less expensive. This does not make it a bad car however.

How do you know I'll never understand the driving feel of a M-B? Do you know me? I've also been a BMW owner prior, & IMO, the BMW driving experience is more engaging than either Lexus or M-B, in general. You also don't know anything about how much experience I have. It is the equivalent of me saying you're 16 yrs old w/o knowing you (I've never met you, how would I know how much experience you have?).

W210

JP, whatever you say. Be happy with your Lexus and take it easy! I for one will never choose an IS300 over a C230k having driven both, but that's me.

J P

Instead of responding to my defenses against your comments, you talk about other things & change the points being discussed. My points are rational, logical, & reasonable. Yours are often subjective, & apply one std for M-B owners but another for me.

You say all the bashing is because I posted, yet all the attacks on Lexus occured before I posted in this thread.

You'd have me believe that I must be dullusional to suggest the IS300 is as safe as the C230 K sedan despite having gov't tests, then you say "whatever you say".

You also say I'll never understand & that I have no experience w/ cars, etc yet you do not know me nor what experience I have. Can I call you inexperienced w/ cars even though I have no idea how much experience you have? (No, I am in no position to do so, neither are you).

You accuse me of bias based on the areas I pointed out, yet you & others focus on areas you think M-B excels at (doesn't that mean you're doing the same?), & rebuke Lexus harshly whereas my posts are not even criticisms of M-B but rather just talk about Lexus being competitive in many areas. By your own definition, you are more biased.

Guest0001

lol J P you seem like a robot when you talk. You repeat your points over and over and over....

J P

You're on E46Fanatics too aren't you? Actually, my points are always in response to what others are criticizing. When unable to respond to those defenses of Lexus, people start offering subjective opinions & pass them off as valid yet consider others' points which don't agree w/ them as invalid & biased.

Guest0001

Yeah I post there under noblert10 from time to time.

GTIDAN

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzz

Guest0001

Its all in good fun

W210

Noble C320, I agree! It's always fun to read notes from bitter Lexus owners who go on and on defending their complex here on MB board (talking to themselves)!

What I bunch of lonely souls. I would feel pretty bad for myself having to go to BMW, Lexus, and Audi boards defending why MB is better for me.

How sad!

S55inPA is quite right, the interesting difference is that us MB owners take the silly notes as a source of entertainment whereas the Lexus board moderators would jump up and down banning the discussion!

J P

If I'm talking to myself, then why did you bother to quote my responses & respond to them?

If it's sad that I'm defending Lexus, isn't it sadder that M-B owners were bashing it in the first place? This thread started as a discussion on the unfairness of ClubLexus, yet turned into a Lexus bashing thread before I ever posted in the thread.

Please refrain from trying to give the appearance of indifference, it you were indifferent then you wouldn't have bothered to respond to any of my posts in the first place.

My posts were rational & logical while you offered nothing to back up your assertions other than your own subjective opinion. Your own subjective opinion is no more valid than that of any other human being. When you were unable to respond to the points made in my posts, you instead try to play it off & dismiss me as being sad.

What is sad is that you refuse to accept any rational, logical points, regardless of whether they're backed up by data. What is even more sad is nowhere do I state that the Lexus brand is better than M-B, & nowhere did I make comments on you being a sad person or anything of the nature, yet you feel compelled to make comments regarding my personal character.

MadManAboutTown

This is a Mercedes forum, not a Lexus forum. So if you want to talk about Lexus, go somewhere else.

vraa

Might want to tell that to the thread starters on every Lexus debate, none of them are saying Lexus is the best, it's always someone bashing Lexus.

S55inPA however wasn't trying to bash Lexus, he was just trying to list some sales but it came out in an awkward way that ignited some feathers.

S55inPA

hi vraa....i think your accurate when you say some of my posts came off akward. that's my fault.

jp.....as for the sales volume...i never looked at the 02 sales numbers....you are correct. in 03 the S class sales figures are a little bit higher than the LS 430. i still feel though that Lexus has built it's sales volume on SUV's and lower priced cars. when Lexus uses it's sales volume as a sales pitch i just feel that it is a little misleading. when you dig into their sales numbers you find that their overall car sales with a price over $40,000 is pretty slim. i used the $40,000 number as a benchmark between luxury and near luxury. it's just my opinion. plus....their suv's are all rebadged toyotas. not that this is a bad thing but it does seem a very easy and quick way of helping your sales volume.

1SICKLEX

J P your are talking to walls and deaf ears.

W210

XenonES3

HHAHHAHAHHAHAHAH.....I was checking this out with some buddies and we just can't stop laughing.

People who don't buy an MB lack: Intelligence? Class?

Harvard must have made a big mistake admitting me early action, huh?

Oh man, this made my New Year's

Guest0001

Does anyone else think this is odd

Someone with enough intelligence to go to Harvard and he says,

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"....

Good one dude

MadManAboutTown

Hey Harvard-bound, your first class should be in logic since your leap of logic is flawed. Think about your response of "People who don't buy an MB lack: Intelligence? Class?".

Anyway, congrats on Harvard admission if it's really true... but remember it ain't the degree that makes the man so I wouldn't brag about your "future pedigree" until you can walk your talk.

But driving a Mercedes will help you in any case

XenonES3

Thank you. What you say is correct, the school doesn't make the man.

As far as driving a Mercedes, that ain't happening until I earn it; whether by some windfall it be tommorrow or as I predict many years from now. While I'm broke (I don't ask my parents for money, I try to work for for what I want), I'll stick with good old reliable.

And to Noble C320, I'm no English GOD. I'm sorry I can't write as well as your "perception" of a Harvard student.

J Lucas

You lexus dudes are a bunch of clowns with a chip on your shoulder. Everyone here is happy with their purchase, so go over to the bmw forums and go bother them about how you would prefer slow and graceful over fast and sporty. No one here cares about your lexus purchase with the exception of maybe s55....

MadManAboutTown

I don't see the problem here. Freedom of speech should be welcomed in any form (as long as not obscene), as long as it's on topic. I've read S55inPA's post on the Lexus forum and those moderators were ridiculous in banning him. They obviously want their forum to be a sales and/or comfort food for Lexus owners or wannabees.

In this day and age when you can surf wherever on the web for any kind of content, banning this kind of content is infantile... which maybe says something not about the Lexus brand, but of the moderators of that forum!