Improviz

They have been doing hot rod sedans for some time, but they were very limited-edition and so weren't so widely known.

The 300SEL 6.3 was a hot rod sedan Mercedes built in the 1960s. Here is a Car & Driver article from 1969:

Road & Track reported: The 450SEL 6.9 was a popular "hot rod" that Mercedes built in the '70's; it had 276 horsepower. This is the brown Mercedes in the first chase scene from Ronin (the one where DeNiro shoots the LAWs rocket out of the sunroof). Here's a 1977 Car & Driver road test:

How does this compare with the 1977 Corvette? Well, let's look at Road & Track:
Considering that the 'vette was a four-speed manual and the Benz was a three-speed auto, *and* that the Benz weighed 4390 lbs to the 'vette's 3540 pounds, one can pretty easily see which one was packing more oomph and had better brakes!!

Motor Trend also did a nice retrospect of the hot-rodded Benzes:

Improviz

Hey, thanks! Send my posts to Mercedes, and tell them I'm open for offers!!

I'm just an enthusiast (also an Engineer who is contemplating a trip through law school), and have been for years...in fact, my first area of car nuttery was American musclecars, lol! I still love them, but one simply cannot compare them to the new AMGs, nore can one compare the Benzes from that era to the AMGs either, although AMG did some tuning on some of the Benzes from that era as well!

nasdaqsam

I agree, your debating with someone that has said over and over agian that was not the intentions of my post. .....yet you continue, hmmmm.........makes you wonder. Yes you are right this is ridiculous.

I do???? I didn't think I did....but wait....no......I'm pretty sure I didn't but.......you say I did........so I must be wrong. Please forgive me.

My friend I do not want to debate anything with you. Never said I wanted to. You took it upon yourself to start the debate. I have clearly stated over and over that was not my intention yet you can not seam to grasp that. I have tried to be polite and express "MY" opinion and only "MY" opinion. If you do not like that, oh well. You obviously just love to prove how smart you are...kudos to you my friend. You obviously have a reason to try and prove to everyone just how smart you are. Go for it. Have a ball. For all your wisdom you can not see the forest through the trees.

I am sorry to have to had to match wits with such an knowledgable.....oh wait thats right I wasn't in this debate.

Hey, keep it up eventually you will have just yourself on these forums. Just think how wonderful that will be. You can write a thread then answer with how smart the poster was then write back and thank the great forsight of the poster that gave the compliment, heck you could go on forever.

I wonder why a German company with the prestige and know how such as Mercedes obvioulsy has would buy an obviously crappy little POS american company in the first place???? Things that make you go HMMMM. Will the emblem change?

You say that there is no way to compare the current AMG to the Muscle cars, I beg to differ. Lets talk about value. What did you pay for your AMG's? How much can you sell them for? I can tell you I have bought and sold 12 Corvettes and done nothing but make money in the process. I have never lost a red cent on any Corvette I have ever owned and that includes repairs and work done to them, I have done well enough to put both of my children through college on the proceeds. Can you say the same? Ya I guess your right you can not compare them. Yours will always lose money mine will always make money. Maybe again I am wrong and should go to losing money as you are far smarter than I. Link a road and track artical to that....

BTW, now that I am fully aware of how this forum works I will not be around much.

tuscanraider

The AMG owners aren't claiming to buy their cars for investments; simply for driving fun. The classic Corvette buyer or restorer is a different consumer altogether. They'll always make money.

AMG's might be worth something in the future; but they'll have to be a few decades old first.

I don't think even the most ardent AMG owners would try to argue AMG investment value. But then again just when I think they won't defy all reason, someone steps to the plate and attempts to.

nasdaqsam

I agree and I do not think my new friend actually represents all the current AMG owners in his statements.

I agree with you again completely but the statement was "one simply cannot compare them to the new AMGs" I simply proved that wrong at least in one respect. Although I am sure he is going to do everything in his power to prove that wrong to.

Give him a minute I'm sure there is an R&T article somewhere to support the position.

Improviz

Um, no, it was YOU who came into the thread, which is a debate in and of itself, wanting to tell all of us po' ignoant fo'k who have owned American cars how great American cars really were.

Yes you did express your opinion. You also made several statements to support your opinion, such as Mercedes' performance compared to Cobras, that muscle cars like the "Corvettes of yesteryear, 429 Mustang CJ, The Hemi Cuda, The super Bee" were faster than present-day Mercedes, that US musclecars are more collectable than European cars (BOTH are highly collectable, as can be seen by reading this:).

You also used supposition to tell us that Mercedes owners are not as passionate about our cars as American car owners, and that American car owners hold on to their cars longer than Mercedes owners--without a shred of proof. You also lectured me, a former Corvette owner, that Corvette owners would rather give up their first born before selling their cars. Well, there are obviously a lot of first born children up for sale somewhere, judging by the number of 'vettes for sale in this morning's classifieds.

In other words, your opinion wasn't enough for you: you tried to express it by using facts, facts which turned out to be wrong. You can certainly have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.

You tell us that most people don't know what an AMG badge is. Most people don't know what a "426 Hemi" badge means either. So the ignorance of the public makes a case for the superiority of American cars??

You tell us that you know people who lovingly care for their American cars and enjoy driving them, as if none of us lovingly care for our European cars and enjoy driving them.

Actually, I was trying to prove that your facts were wrong, and that your logic was as full of holes as a piece of swiss cheese. Successfully, I think, judging by the tone of your response.

Perhaps this is because you are a lousy artist, yes?

Sure could have fooled all of us.

Or maybe at one point we'll be left with only Mercedes enthusiasts, rather than people who want to tell us how bad they think our cars are.

To aquire a lower-cost car manufacturer to expand market share and thus increase profitibility? I dunno, that's just a guess...maybe for that pretty Chrysler badge?

No, I cannot say the same: as pointed out to you before, my one and only Corvette was a stiff-riding, noisy, heavy POS with more mechanical problems with the other cars I owned before it combined. And it had low mileage when I bought it. And just like all noncollectable cars, it depreciated while I owned it. In fact, I've never owned a car which appreciated while I owned it, because I do not collect cars; I drive them. I put my investment portfolio in stocks and bonds, thank you very much. My cars are for entertainment and transportation.

Link any article from anywhere that states that Corvettes do not depreciate in value. If you buy a 20 year old clunker, then fix it up yourself and sell it and make some money, this hardly establishes anything other than cars in better condition sell for more than cars in junky condition.

Words cannot express my disappointment. Perhaps lecturing people using poor logic and inaccurate "facts" is not the best way to make friends with them.

nasdaqsam

My apologises. I thought this was an open forum and anybody could respond. I did not realize it was your sand box and nobody was allowed to play in it. I'll just take my ball then and go home.

Wrong. I simply stated American cars deserve a little respect. Actually my statement was:

"I'm fairly new to the MBWorld forums here so maybe I am speaking out of line but it seems there is quite a bit of American automobile car bashing going on. I can appreciate all the acoomplishments of many fine auto makers I have complete respect for MB, BMW, and the rest but I feel a little respect for the US cars is in line also."

I openly admitted up front I was new to the MB world and expressed what I felt to be an injustice. You twisted it.


Wrong again my friend my statement was as follows:

"Lets face it how many years was it before MB actually built a production vehicle that even comes close to what Ford and Shelby created over 35 years ago. I'm not up in the specs but does MB make one today that matchs a 67 Shelby Cobra in acceleration and braking. May I add this did this with out the aid of computers and wind tunels. Is there a single MB or BMW that has a following so loyal that they created there own castings to recreate the car just so they can build and drive one? How about the Corvettes of yester year. Some of the fastest cars ever built. The 429 Mustang CJ, The Hemi Cuda, The super Bee etc etc. These cars where all built years and years ahead of what MB accomplishs today. As for the Viper, Mercedes had nothing to do with that. That was Dodges long before Mercedes came around."

I openly admitted as to not being up on the specs and ASKED the question (I thought that was what a question mark was used for) are there any today. You twisted my statements again my friend. And BTW I said SOME of the fastest, not the fastest. Get it some of not the!

Wrong again my friend. When and where did I say this? Show me where I actual said that US musclecars are MORE collectable than European. To my knowledge I have not used the word "European" once in this arguement you have created.

Not to lecture here but please save the BS for someone else. You know absolutely nothing about me, and trust me when I say this you do not have a clue who I am. This little game is fun. Nothing more nothing less. Have a little respect.

Again you are wrong and have twisted my words. I never said they are not as passionate. I believe they are every bit as passionate. The point I was trying to make was that the two collectors are different and each has their own styles each deserving proper respect. I have stated over and over again that I have great respect for other brands like I said;
Here:
"I can appreciate all the acoomplishments of many fine auto makers I have complete respect for MB, BMW, and the rest"
Here:
"Almost all high performance cars have there good and bad points. I can appreciate a finely crafted automobile from any country"
Here:
"I fully respect and appreciate what Mercedes has accomplished (I've stated that several times now). I just bought one for what it's worth. My comments where not intended to bash another vehicle"

Where and when did I quote facts. I have not once said this is a fact. Again twisting the statements.

Oh come on now you must be kidding here. Most people do not know what a HEMI badge is? You can not be serious. Step back my friend and reread that statement. And BTW I did not say it was superior. Again twisted words. Just for sh*ts and giggles I just called a friend of mine from Montreal Canada who owns an S500(This is his third MB) and asked if looked at or tried out an AMG. He had no idea what an AMG was. Try to find an American of driving age that does not knopw what a HEMI is. Heck try to find any person into performance cars that does not know what a HEMI is. Give me a break.

Nope never said that either. Again twisted words. I'm sure they do love them just as much or at least just as much until the next best one comes out. I have read through quite a few posts on these forums and many refer to people buying this one but wanting the next one. I was pointing out that this man has owned this car since it was new over 35 years ago. I do aplologize as I inadvertently left out the part of owning it since it was new.

Exactly how do you poke holes in facts when I have not stated any facts. I have been very clear that my words are my opinion. Again twisting the words.

Perhaps, but then again maybe it is just the rose colored glasses you are wearing. Who knows for sure. One mans junk is another mans treasure.

Us? Who is Us? Do you not mean you or do you have artistic license to speak for every one here?

Now that would be nice wouldn't it. Never a nah sayer. Seems that pattern has proven to be a bad way to go in many societies and failed. Patting each other on the back pretending the only vehicle worth a damn is an MB. BTW, I completely respect for the MB product. Never said otherwise.

Wrong again. Never said they were bad cars. Simply stated they are not the only car that deserves respect. You twisted the words.

Maybe...Maybe not. Seems odd though a company with such prestige would even consider putting their reputation on the line and have the two name plates have anything to do with each other at all.

My quess would be quality control but I digress.

Maybe. Time will tell but I would doubt it.

For the record I do not just collect my cars I drive them...hard...really hard. Again you know nothing about me. Do not make assumptions.

What makes you think I bought clunkers. Yet another assumption? You would be wrong. Most of my cars where already fully restored. I have had the pleasure of doing it myself a few times also.

Actually on second thought I will more than likely stay around a bit. I think I am starting to like you.

tuscanraider

....nasdaq should get a part time job as a high-school janitor, he's doing a great job mopping the floor with Improviz.

Improviz

Um, yes, if you read only that paragraph and omit the rest of the post following it, that's what you said. Unfortunately, there is the rest of the post...

I twisted nothing. Again, you first stated that you felt American cars deserved respect (your OPINION) and then tried to establish this OPINION using FACTS, which consisted primarily of your putting down Mercedes while hyping models which have been out of production for forty years. Of course, your facts turned out to be incorrect, as I showed, but you keep coming back for more...

Yes, and I answered it. I also showed that Mercedes currently makes full-sized luxury sedans which will outaccelerate and outbrake a Shelby Cobra, while weighing more than double the weight of the Cobra.

Why don't you list the American sedans that can do this, sam? Just one, I'll wait.

While you're at it, show me any entry-level American sedan that can compete with the BMW 3 series and Mercedes C-class in terms of acceleration, handling, and braking, or any full-size American car that can compete with any AMG in terms of acceleration, braking, or handling.

Show me the last time an American performance sedan won a comparison against European competitors in any *American* car magazine.

Or how about you list the American production cars that can lap Nuerburging circuit in under 8'40", sam? If they're oh so comparable to European cars, you should be able to compile such a list, because there are plenty of European (and Japanese) cars on this list. Where are the Americans? Outside the 'vette and the GT-40, they are rather conspicuously absent.

Come on, sam...you're telling us we should respect American cars. Give us some reason to respect them. The fact is that until THIS YEAR, the American sedans weren't even ON this playing field.

You make a lot of claims, sam, but you produce not one iota of data to back them up.

Oh, and here's a little gem I'd missed: Range Rover is owned by BMW, sam.

Right here, sam:
So, sam, if your intent in making this false statement was not to state that American cars are more collectable than European cars, what was it exactly?

Twisted your words, eh? So please explain the following:
Oh, I see...yeah, it's obvious that in writing the previous, you were not attempting to belittle Mercedes or to claim that Mercedes owners are less loyal or passionate than American muscle car owners.

And then you woke up and jizzed into a napkin.

You didn't quote facts, sam, and I didn't say you did. I said you USED facts, facts which turned out to be wrong. In other words, you tried to make claims but did NOT provide any proof. Examples:
Those are claims of fact, sam. Not opinion. And they are wrong.

And yes, I maintain that Joe Average American doesn't know anything about hemi motors. Enthusiasts do, but enthusiasts also know about AMGs. But average people know about neither.

You certainly implied it:
Oh, gee, no, that's not in any way an attempt to establish that people love American cars more than Mercedes, or that people are more passionate about American cars than Mercedes, now is it, sam?

nasdaqsam

Oh Man. Thats just going to pee him off and we were just starting be good friends. I was going to have him over for drinks and everything.
We were going to be buddies.

Improviz

Why, you want some company while you're cleaning the toilets?

Improviz

I'm really not inclined to debate what you "really" meant with you. If you have something other than anecdotal stories of forty-year-old automobiles to support your opinion, please produce it, but I'm really not one to waste too much time arguing over semantics. People can read your posts and decide if the meaning I inferred from them was accurate or not.

Iow, unless your anticipated essay contains some useful info, I won't be wasting time composing little mini-essays to re-hash what you've already written.

nasdaqsam

WHAT.....I'll say that again...WHAT!!!!!! Hang on here I have to get up off the floor. You really are a funny guy. You just waisted countless posts turning my words all around trying to tell ME what I said and then say you do not waste your time......Dude go back and reread the thread. Actually, from reading some of your other responses to other posts that it is EXACTLY what you do. Trust me when I tell you this. You can be wrong sometimes, you do not have to be right all the time. Your hooter will not shrink. Really it wont.

Crap and I was all most finished what could have been my crowning achievment, kinda pointless now. This was just starting to get fun too. I guess this means you will not be stopping over for drinks? Damn what I am going to do with all the dip I just made?

nasdaqsam

tuscan, I told you, you were going to pee him off. You wouldn't listen though would you?

Take Care until next time..........

Improviz

People can decide for themselves what you meant, as it is there for all to read, and determine the merit (or lack thereof) therein, as well as whether or not my analyses were correct. In fact, I'll repost the links to make it easy for them:

nasdaqsam's first post:

my response:

nasdaqsam's second post:

my response:

nasdaqsam's third post:

my response:

nasdaqsam's fourth post:

my response:


And I take it that you're ceding the following:

One more for you, sam: why is it you went back forty years rather than citing any current American offerings? Would that be because with a few notable exceptions, the current crop of American cars are largly crap?

Have a nice day.

nasdaqsam

Gee a little insulting to our loyal followers isn't it? I would think they would have been smart enough to read the posts that have gotten us to this point. Don't you? Or was adding the link an attempt at validity? I was impressed. Damn I wish I was smart enough to do that.

And now your asking others to tell me what I meant. I have my wife for that thank you very much.

Give it up. It has nothing to do with my original post. You are simply looking to continue the thread to again validate yourself. I know a good theropist you could call.

I did that because those are the cars I know and love. I admit it I am a closet 40year old car fan. I need group theropy, hey maybe we can get a group rate. You in?

In case you missed it in the first post I said I just bought an E3204matic. Why because I feel it is the best car for the money to meet my current needs. Damn does this mean I have to hate US cars now. Crap. Now what am I going to do? Never mind all my other posts I own an MB now and I was wrong. All US cars are crap and always were crap and will always be crap. I see the light. What was I thinking. I love Mercedes, I love Mercedes....Said in thevoice of Jim Cary in the mask.....Somebody stop me!

Right back at ya big guy and many more.
I'm starting to feel all warm and fuzzy inside. This was so nice.

Improviz

Actually, I was trying to be thoughtful and save our fellow forum readers some effort.

The wonders of modern technology.

Only because you tried so vehemently to lie your way out of what you'd written previously.

Validate what? That you're a liar with the logical skills of a two year old? I've already established that.

Of that I have no doubt.

But it is most telling, sam, that you had to resort to using a limited-production, forty year old car for acceleration, isn't it? After all, the topic of this thread was a *present-day* Cadillac, not a forty-year-old one....

No; I certainly don't. I just don't feel that they have the quality (mechanical or material), performance, build quality, fit and finish, sex appeal, and sporting nature of European cars. They're making some strong efforts to step back into the ring, a great thing in my eyes, but they're still not there--yet. But it seems as though they're getting serious about it, so we'll see how it goes.

Hmm, what was it you said about twisting words? I believe I pointed out already in this thread that the Shelby Cobra was one of my all-time favorite cars, yes? Yes, in my first response to you:
And then there was this, in my second response:
And finally, in my response to JLLK, I wrote:
Yeah, spoken like a true American car hater, lol...

I don't hate them, sam; I'm *disappointed* with them, as I cited in a previous example:

Someone needs to read more carefully, sam.

Oh, and you bought an E320 4Matic? Did you look at any American competitors to this vehicle? If so, what were they?

Hmm, wait a minute...I don't believe that there *are* any midsized American cars with AWD that will travel to 130 mph limited (here), 154 mph limited (Europe) and be as cool as a cucumber at that speed, stop from 70 mph in 170 feet or so, pull .85 G or so on a skidpad, and so forth...are there, sam?

Jack Mitchell

Man O man, this quote and slaughter routine is really getting old, isn't it?

I call shenanigans on both of these individuals and suggest a truce - what say you guys?

Regards, Jack

nasdaqsam

You are a true gentlemen. I'm sure I speak for everybody in thanking you.

Your so smart I wish I could grow up to be just like you. to bad you do not know when someone is playing with you.

I will not take your very harsh words personnally as that is the usual way people like you react when you have nothing left to say. BTW, I did not know it was possible to lie about an opinion. One more thing since you brought it up about being a lawyer. You might want to look up what can be done to you for defaming someone in a public forum. You obviously have a lot to learn.

You have established nothing other than the fact that you have no tolerance and can only resort to name calling.

That part of this thread died long ago. Retoric at best.

On this we agree.

Mine also.

I did not say you hated them.

I couldn't agree more.

Only one. The Chrysler 300. I wanted all wheel drive for my wifes safety and there are no american cars currently built that compared to the E320 4matic in my opinion.

You are correct but speed was not in my mind when I bought it or I would have bought the 500.

Impro, You seem like a nice enough guy, you just don't know when to stop or how to control yourself.

You stepped over the line calling me names. I do not take things like that lightly. You sir, were out of line. As I said you do not know me and saying the things you have said to the wrong person could land you in some serious trouble. I have had some fun with this so I am going to let it go.

On a serious note:
If you truely do wish to be an attorney some day, something I have a lot of experience with, I will offer this advise to you. You are to addiment in trying to prove your point. Facts have little to nothing to do with how a trial will turn out. Especially since any compitent trial lawyer can and will turn them around on you. It is what you can make the jury "believe" not what "you" believe. Losing your cool and resorting to name calling for any reason is a sure way to loss a case and your credibility. Your a pretty smart guy you should know by now a persons opinion is theirs and you do not have to share it nor is it your responsibility to prove it wrong no matter how much they disagree with your position on a given subject.

I wise man once said never fight with a fool they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Take Care man your going to need it. If you keep talking to people like you do some day someone is going to give you a tune up you will never forget.

Improviz

You're welcome.

Actually, I do, but it is very obvious that the sarcasm in my response was totally lost on you.

I believed that you were intentionally being dishonest, sam, and I still do. Your post contained cheap shots at Mercedes and Mercedes owners--absolutely uncalled for, and absolutely unneeded in order to establish your claim that American cars are of high quality. And given that you're posting using a pseudonym, what could you sue for? For defaming "nasdaqsam"? And of course, if you ignore the counter-statements you've made about me and my intelligence....

I established that your claims of American muscle car superiority over a mid-level BMW 3 series were crap, which makes your claims of superiority over a modern day AMG even more crap. I established that your claim that there are more American collectible cars than European cars as false.

Which is why I suspect you're angry, and have now resorted to threatening me.

Translation: I cannot cite a present-day American sedan that can accomplish the feats you're showing, and so had no choice but to go back 40 years.


It is very cute how you will imply something without saying it directly, then deny having said it. Are you a politician? Here is what you said:
So your implication wasn't that I hated American cars, eh sam? So what was it, then, sir?

Are you aware that the Chrysler 300 sourced numerous chassis components, suspension bits, *and* the AWD system in this vehicle from Mercedes? Kind of illustrates my point very nicely, don't you think? In fact, I was quite certain that you'd looked at this, and I'm happy to see that you took the bait.

And you as well, likewise on both.

Then I believe we are even, sir: it was you who questioned my intelligence and my honesty first. If you want me to be polite, I would suggest that you too be polite.


I will consider that a veiled threat, and duly report it to the moderators.

Thank you for telling me what anyone who watched the OJ trial would already know. Oh, and this begs a question: if this is your philosophy, why exactly did you inject yourself into the middle of this thread to argue with people's opinions on American cars, sam?

More name-calling, sam? I thought you were mr. polite...

Again: threats are reported to moderators. Keep it up, and your stay on these forums will be brief.

nasdaqsam

Improviz;

I wish you well in all your endeavors.

nasdaqsam

Improviz

nasdaqsam:

Likewise, and regards....enjoy your cars.

tuscanraider

Hey better luck next time Improviz. Eventually you'll find someone lower on the food chain that will make you look better.

Stiggs

yes!!!!!
I knew this thread still had some life in it!

Improviz