rhino

I have a CLK and a 5 series and swear by German cars. I love the precision of German Engineering, so I was initially drawn to the ML500 when I was planning to buy an SUV.

I test drove the ML500 and was captivated by the Inspiration edition. It looked like the ML55 interior and I immediately placed a deposit on one. Then I test drove it again, then again. All total I had five test drives to validate if the ML was the best SUV for my money ($50K).

Then I test drove the GX 470. I found it to be Smooth and capable. Incredible Luxury. In one word Better than the ML for my $50K.

Here are the reasons that I found the GX to be better:
GX has a less powerful, but SMOOTHER V-8. With 320 ft. torque.
GX handles better and has a better center of gravity than the ML.
GX has more performance features the most impressive were--
8.3 inches of ground clearance.
True 4 wheel drive.
Adjustable suspension modes.
Adjustable ride height.
(the only other vehicles that I've seen with these features are the $63K LX 470 and the $73K Range Rover)

Then comes the luxury/asthetics that I like:
GX has steering wheel audio controls (just like my 2000 CLK)
GX has dual climate control (just like my 2000 CLK)
GX has the best Nav system on the market. Incredible touchscreen operation.
GX has Mark Levinson Audio. A true masterpiece of car audio engineering. 14 Revel Speakers. Levinson Amp and front end. There is no better OE Audio in the marketplace.
GX leather is like Designo Nappa leather.
GX interior is like a Designo Interior with the wood steering wheel and birdseye maple all around you on the doors ect. (just like my CLK).
GX has lighted running boards Standard.
GX has a roof rack Standard.

But after 5 test drives with the ML I realized that MB SUV's are not as good as Lexus and I asked for my deposit back. I released my Black/Charcoal ML500 Inspiration and bought the GX470.

My opinion is that the ML has a long way to go to even come close to the GX at the $50K pricepoint. In both Engineering and Luxury/Asthetics there is nothing better than Lexus at this juncture.

I love MB and BMW. And I think I will return to them when I buy a replacement for my 5 series. As sedans go, there is nothing better than solid German engineering. (I would definitely say that the E500 and the 540i is far far superior to the GS430 or even LS430. In fact the only Lexus models that are better than MB and BMW are their SUV's. Hell Toyota's been making SUV's for more than 50 years now. Hopefully in the next few years MB and BMW will catch up.)


Just my 2 cents.

Rhino

timdf

But when MB, BMW or whoever try and build vehicles in the US, they use way too much domestic made content and thus the overall quality falls. As clearly demonstrated in MB USA products.

I'm seriously thinking about swapping my '00 ML430 for a Lexus - largely because of all the problems I've had with it.

BTW, try posting your original message on benzworld.org - but make sure you've got your flame proof pants on first. Only 'true believers' post there ;-)

Tim

'00 ML430 with 24 warranty repairs
'02 Porsche 996 with 1 warranty repair (the MB made transmission !)

amb9800

Actually MB has been making SUVs/4wd vehicles for longer than Toyota has - the G-Wagen was made in the 70's and was MB's first vehicle to match the modern definition of an SUV, but the Unimog was much before that and employed 4 wheel drive as well.

MB actually made a model in the 1930's known as the G4, which had 6 wheels and if I remember correctly, six wheel drive. It was one of the most off-road capable vehicles of the time.

See the picture I have attached and go to the following page for more info:
http://www.mbspy.com/g4.htm

Getting back on topic - ML versus Toyota SUV's - I own an ML320 but have checked out the GX and the Toyota SUVs as well - my opinion is that the Toyota SUVs are big but they never let you forget that they are big and unwieldy. They are luxurious but so much so that, at least to me, it is excessive - I mean that extremely strong leather smell with every control matching that theme - overly gaudy - I'm not sure how to describe it, but the ML gives the same luxury but it doesn't 'try to show it off.' That's not so much true for the GX as it is for the Land Cruiser/LX, but it's still there.

In terms of ground clearance, the ML has 8.2" I believe (vs. 8.3" for the GX) - the only difference is that towards the sides of the vehicle, the ML is lower so that you can get into the car without much difficulty (you don't have to 'climb' into it). The ML is more car-like, while the Toyotas are truck-like in their own unique way. The G-Class is just as, if not more, off-road capable than the best of the Toyotas but it doesn't give you that sense of 'bulging-ness.'

Regarding the engine - both engines are typical of their companies - Toyota makes smooth-riding engines/drivetrains while MB gives the car more 'character,' which often means a less smooth drivetrain.

I don't think you can make a blanket statement like

They are different but can you compare the ML320 to the RX300? Is the RX300 an off-road capable vehicle - does it compare in space to the ML? No - so although some will disagree, you cannot just say Lexus trucks are better than MB trucks IMO - compare the G500 or G55 to the top of the line LX470 - does the LX even compare in offroad capability - does it have all those features. Admitted it is bigger - but they are meant for different purposes.

What do you mean by 'true four wheel drive.' The ML's 4wd system is one of the most advanced in its market, and the G-class is the only production vehicle with 3 diff locks - how is Toyota's system superior to the G's.

The next-gen ML (W164) and the MLG/next-gen G-class will have an air suspension - the next version of Airmatic - that will a lot of adjustments built in.

You are comparing a product that is very near its life cycle and one that has just arrived - feature differences are bound to be there - but look at the ML and G's features - does the Toyota have ESP or any comparable intelligent stability control - does it have TeleAid or something comparable - does it have 10 airbags or a roll safety mechanism as advanced as the ML, etc.

I'm not saying the Toyotas are bad - they're just different, and thats the difference I'm trying to point out - you can't just say MB and BMW trucks are not as good as Toyota.

Sorry if this sounds like a flame - I didn't mean it to be - I usually don't write posts like this.

Anyway for reference here's a pic from MBSPY of the MB G4.

Thai

mbakshi,

Good points. I am not sure if you can count a 6-wheel drive vehicle a SUV.

"Character" engine?? I don't get that. Sorry.

ML320 vs. RX300/330...like what you said. However, ML500 is in the same price range as the GX470. You can compare them.

All Toyota SUVs have stability control and traction control systems, along with Brake Assist and EBD. It also has Lexus Link and all airbags.

G500 vs. LX470/Land Cruiser...don't know about that. Yes, the G500 has lockers, which is great in deep mud. However, the LX470/TLC can do 45 degrees incline and side slope, both figures much better than G500.

What do people use in Africa safaries or in Afganistan?? TLC and LX470...in fact, the new president of Afgan rides in a Lexus LX470! United Nations uses Toyota 4runner as their official vehicle. Bottom line, more people trust Toyota SUV/trucks than anyone else, more so than even the Land Rovers.

The next M-class will be EVEN MORE car-like! Unibody. I believe MB is concentrating more on X5 than off-roading ability.

I don't think any car manufacturer can match Toyota in terms of building a truly capable and of high quality SUV. No one.

Thanks.

Kar don

Well I own an ML and work at a toyota dealership. The 2002 4runner is gawd awful. Very tippy and unsolid feeling (especially used ones). The transmissions jolt into gear and the ride is terrible. The 2003 4runner is a HUGE improvement over the previous model. We have had so many traded in towards the new model because of its great improvements. The new model shifts very smoothly, has excellent ride quality, and drives a lot better than the old model. The 4runner limited also has height adjustable suspension but the 4wd system still has some quirks in it. When the steering wheel is being turned to lock position there is some drivetrain "bind". In the ML there is absolutely no drivetrain "bind" and i find it to be a much better driving vehicle. The new 4runner rides a little better but it should, its a brand new vehicle. When i drive used 4runners 98-2002, they feel like absolute junk, they squat so much when you hit the gas and the suspension movements feel very rough. My biggest gripe with the 4runner (even the new one) is the major lack of headroom.

Some Pete Guy

Land Rovers mostly and the odd Nissan (given to them in an effort to get their future vehicle business).



Next question.

BETO

I found the same discussion in two different MB forums. I understand the comparison, but they are different vehicles. We'll never agree on "the best" vehicle. Everybody has different taste. I respect Toyota, Land Rover, and other fine 4x4 vehicle makers, but I wouldn't change my ML for any of those. Just my taste.

Thai

Al,

Here is a revelation for you...4Runner is a real SUV! With real off-roading capability!

BTW, strange, the 4runner is widely known for it's incredible durability, reliability, and solid structure. In fact, it has one of the highest resale value in it's class...bar none!

BTW, the 4Runner has a mechanical (gear-based) center differential.

Transmission?? Hmm, the Toyota tranny is one of the most reliable automatics out there, along with the rest of the powertrain. Hmm, very much unlike MB.

Tippy?? Yeah, because it has 11" of ground clearance!! Remember, it has been found to be completely stable by ALL reviewers, including Consumer Reports...you know the magazine that rips your ML to pieces in quality.

BTW, according to my dealer and Edmunds, many people do NOT like the new 4runner...actually, some have bought 2002 because of the new 4Runner.

Thanks for your input...so you work at Toyota, and that proves what?? You could be just a bathroom custodian who is **** off at Toyota for not giving a raise!

Kar don

bathroom custodian who owns a 2002 Lexus IS300 and 99 ML320, not likely buddy.

Some Pete Guy

"http://www.toyota-4runner.org"

So you are here because you got bored while chatting back and forth with yourself on your site that has practically zero traffic?

theine

You guys haven't try the X-5 4.4, now we are talking!

amb9800

The X5 4.4i is also another competitor for the ML500 - basically the breakdown is that the 4.4 is about the same performance-wise with slightly better handling, but the ML has much better bad weather/off road capabilities and is also bigger than the X5 - so basically it comes down to whether sportiness and handling is more important to you than space and offroad capabilities.

j2nh

Just for grins I went to the Lexus website, built my own, and submitted it. The following is the email reply I got (within one day) from the local dealer.


"Right now we do have a waiting list on the GX 470 which_consists of roughly 12 people._ If you would like to be put on it, we require a deposit of $500.00 and a purchase order."_

Short supply or high demand?

Jim

SLequalsHARDON

The Lexus has been gaining in quality, and Toyota has significant experience dating back to over 60 years ago. The GX, in my opinion, is not worth it. It is too small for my tastes, a Land Cruiser is what we own. Big, bulky, and capable.

AMG4life

since you are buying a suv, u prolly want the best value. so yeah go with the lexus. the ml is not a real benz anyway.

CRB

The ML is a five-year-old design and that is a long time for a first shot design anyway.

I predict that the new ML will be pitched closer to the RX330 end of the market and let the next G-class fight the Landcruisers and Range Rovers.

Mercedes101

My last car before my C Class was a 2000 4 Runner. While the vehicle has its good points it has many bad points most notably the lack of headroom and interior space (very narrow), the jittery, headache inducing ride and the sappy, lethargic engine. Even well equipped it feels spartan. My 4runner also had a mysterious glitch in the transmission which made it hold second gear on level roads in certain conditions. I sold that car after less than a year of ownership. I wouldnt personally consider an ML but the 96-02 4 Runner is a basic SUV and not competition for a luxury marque like MB or Lexus.

S55inPA

hey everyone,

so toyota has a new suv and it's pretty nice. it should be for 50g's. oh and this new suv has some frilly options that make some people swoon....big deal! lets make a couple of points here...first...MB invented the segment with the ML..second...the ML is a 5 year old design and it is still very impressive...third...ask yourself a question, which one would you rather be driving in the event of an accident???...fourth...oh toyota has a powerful V8? it's still not as powerful as the ML500's let alone the ML55!!! in a year or two after these new suv's are on the road lets see about their resale value. my guess is within two years toyota will be discounting them about 5000 from sticker!!!
Toyota makes a nice product for the dollar but I'll take my Benz any day of the week.

one last thing...I had about 7 toyotas 2 of which were 4runners.

KU104

If you wanna drive off road...Trust ME look where IM from...we play around in 4x4's and ATV's in the desert than we do on BMX's in the street...Off road...Nothin beats the Toyota Land Cruiser or Nissan Patrol. When it comes to onroad They do have good capability but I'd go with the ML. The GX I dont know about but I would consider it as it is taking after the 2003 Toyota Prado concept. Which has very good road manners. BTW my Infinit QX4 ripped up a 2001 ML320 in the desert we had to tow that POS out. The Pathfinder also is good in the Desert based on my personal experience.

SLequalsHARDON

irony, it's funny.

... MB did not invent the segment, either referring to the Luxury SUV or the SUV itself.

Land Cruiser is a decade old and can out do an ML offroading anyday.

An accident? Land Cruiser, about 30% bigger, and more weight.

Toyota's V8 is plenty powerful to whoop an ML in off roading, we don't need a sports car SUV.

ML430 KBB with 50k miles and 01' model year, good condidtion is 22 grand.
Toyota's is 30k with same conditions and 01' model year.

Your guess is wrong.


Ask any real offroading SUV owner, a Land Cruiser is almost the most capable, if not the most, second to perhaps a Jeep. But it's up there with the Range Rovers, Hummers, and Jeeps. It's been around for 60 years+, so know your stuff before ya post.

Mmmm

One place the ML can go that a GX, LX, 4 runner etc can't is a decent country club.

The GX470 is sold as a Toyota Land Cruiser in Britain, the styling of the US version appears quite a bit like the ML series.

Top Gear Mag in Uk said of the GX

"That, and a helm about as informative as Prime Minister Tony’s press office, I can accept. The ride is another matter. Fantastic on smooth surfaces courtesy of the ladder chassis’ insulating qualities, the car’s poise tumbles all too readily over undulations, body control disintegrating like that of man with a scorpion dropped down the back of his neck. Dialling in the stoutest of four damper settings which, along with air suspension astern comprise the Electronic Modulated Suspension system, does help stabilise the body more quickly during turn in, but seems to offer little relief to the car’s St Vitus afflictions elsewhere.

Toyota cites its enviable reputation for ruggedness and reliability in some of the world’s most hostile environments as justification for retaining this tarmac control-compromising construction. However, with electrics increasingly substituting for mechanical elasticity off-road, there is no getting over the burgeoning dominance of road manners in the SUV recipe book. And, Defender aside, the last off-roader off the ladder chassis is liable to be a very rotten egg indeed."

The Lexus obviously does have some good points off road etc, I do prefer the Mercedes interior (despite the quality faults) and I prefer its looks.

And as KU104 and others have said I rather be in a Toyota Land Cruiser Gx470 etc or Nissian Patrol in the desert, but for mainly road work and for popping to the racing, fishing, golf club or going shooting I'd rather have the ML.

SLequalsHARDON

At a country club, where people know Mercedes, will know that an ML350 or even an ML500 isn't that expensive. A LX starts at 65 (or around there) and the Land Cruiser as 55 or around there. The reason Lexus isn't as prevalent in other parts of the world is because they are sold under Toyota nameplates, due to their lack of care towards owning a "luxury name".

Your statement that a Lexus LX or even a GX couldn't go to a country club is pretty ... unfounded, wouldn't you say? That's like saying yeah, I can take my Lexus ES there, but not my LS. No logic.

The interior is your opinion, and although I prefer the S Class to an LS, I believe that Lexus' interiors are amoung the best. It's interiors have been voted best many times. Their exterior styling (ES, RX) is horrendous at times, even more so than... **gasp** the 7 series. But, it does have it's good points, ala the LX.

BTW, any more than decent country club I've been to has had more Lexus that Mercedes, and more BMW than Mercedes.


How's that for taking your statement literally?

But seriously, stop it.




BTW, may I ask your opinions on your M3? The Cab vs. the Coupe?

gbahri

Yo Thai, if you wanna commend your 4 runner so much go back to the 4 runner board. Oh wait your the one that starts all the threads and no one answers them.

elfkonig

Comparing MBs, BMWs and LRs to Toyotas and Nissans is like comparing IWC or Omega watches to those made by Seiko or Citizen. Or comparing an automatic movement to a quartz one. The most expensive watches are far from being the best and chances are that they were made by companies that specialize in something else (such as Cartier, which specializes in jewlery, and makes pretty bad watches).

There is no doubt that Toyota and Nissan make great, dependable luxury cars and SUVs. When it comes to cachet, however, the Japanese and American brands simply do not have it.

The whole country club issue is a bit silly, but since it was brought up, I must say that country club members with money and class will tend to be less flashy than those with newly found wealth, i.e., they'll go for established classical brands, whether they are expensive or not.

All one has to do is compare the shopping experience at a MB or BMW dealer with that at a Toyota or Nissan dealer...

My 2 cents.

S55inPA

hey everyone,

first off i think we were discussing the Lexus or should I say toyota GX 470??? the land cruiser is a totally different animal. it has a good reputation from past generations but it has evolved into an overweight, underpowered and overpriced status symbol for people who want to project a masculine image of themselves adventuring into far and remote places because they suffer from low self esteem.

as for who invented the first suv....guess what...it was GM with the suburban.

and when it comes to off roading ....well the ML was manufactured mainly for on pavement use. And it does this quite well. When the ML was introduced it created an entirely new auto segment ..the mid size luxury SUV.

oh and resale value...i traded a 00 ML430 for my current ML500....i did pretty well in the deal...no manufactured horror story to report.

so...pay attention and maybe "you'll" learn something.