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Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps

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M275 V12 Bi-Turbo Platform Technical discussion relating to models sharing the M275 V12 Bi-Turbo (V12 TT). Including SL600, SL65 AMG, CL600, CL65 AMG, S600, S65 AMG.
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Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps

 
Old 11-12-2013, 05:14 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by Crissus View Post
Thanks veeeery much for all your work.
Really its time to see some real world results :-) Recovery time, max IAT, etc.
Thanks alot, i look forward to your reviews and ongoing commitment :-)
It would be upsetting to go through all these books of informations and supposed changes for the better only to see continued heat soak.
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Old 11-13-2013, 02:48 PM
  #127  
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The other thing I’m doing is re-plumbing the charge coolers. I decided not to move the pipes from the side of the engine. I don’t want the coil packs getting any hotter than they already are. I’m changing everything else at the back, for the following reasons:

1. I’m adding a small header tank to fill the system, check the level, and top it up – the usual cooling system stuff.
2. I got rid of the valves on the IC inlets, and added bleed nipples instead, to help bleed the system automatically.
3. My pump controller needs a coolant sender, so I added an in-line sensor adapter to one IC outlet.
4. The system had four 90 degree equal-Tees, which are terrible for fluid flow, so I removed them all.
5. To split the flow between the coolers, I use a pair of Y-splitters instead, which should flow better.

The plumbing down the back of the engine is tricky, so I removed it all, and traced the pipe geometry onto a large sheet. I then got all the stock hoses together, added the couplings and adapters and some new hose, and experimented with countless configurations to fit the geometry. I was careful not to cut or damage any removed parts, so the modifications are reversible. Hint: if you’re ever likely to do anything with the charge coolers, be very careful with the inlet and outlet ports. They’re made of ally, not steel, and easily damaged; just removing a hose is enough to bend them.

My original intention was to add bleed nipples in order to bleed the system when its filled, but it’s not as simple as that. Bleed nipples fit into bleed receptacles, so they can be closed off by tightening down. The Schrader valve ports won’t do this – there are no conical seats, so the nipples will always be open. I initially got some two-piece Stahlbus speed bleeder valves; perfect for this application. However, I changed my mind and decided to keep the bleed ports open all the time, not just for filling, so I used conventional 6mm bleed nipples instead, and hooked them up to the header tank with fuel hose.

The bleed nipples are on the IC inlets, and the header filler connects to the outlet, so the header tank effectively straddles the IC’s. Therefore the pressure across the IC’s generated by the pump will force coolant through the bleed pipes, so the coolant in the header will be continuously circulating. The bleed apertures are small, so they won’t take much flow away from the IC’s. In any case, my pump is working in a flat part of its operating curve, so it will probably supply the extra flow without losing pressure. Now, any air in the system can be clearly seen, which is something you can’t do with the stocksystem – what’s going on inside has always been rather a mystery.

Has the system been properly filled?
Has any air got into the system?
Is there a coolant leak?
How hot is the coolant?
Is the pump actually working?
Is there even any coolant in the system?

The header tank gets round most of these problems, but it does need to be used in conjunction with an HE that can be bled properly, without requiring a vacuum bleeder. Not that that’s the end of the world of course – have you seen the price of those Chinese rotary vacuum pumps these days? You can service both your AC and IC!

Nick

Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps-287a3796-65be-4477-a9f4-3dd0bf684344_zps618ebd4c.jpg

Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps-pb120564_zps31858284.jpg

Last edited by Welwynnick; 11-13-2013 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 11-24-2013, 01:13 PM
  #128  
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One of the things that convinced me it was worth upgrading the V12TT IC was realising that even modest cars like the Golf 1.6 TDI had large air-air IC's; around the same size as the engine rad, in fact.

I hired a Golf 1.4 TSI DSG last week, and it was very pleasant surprise in all respects. Looking under the hood, it had the tiniest turbo I've ever seen, but it also had a water cooled IC. All the recent VW/Audi/SEAT/Skoda engines seem to be moving in that direction.

According to Nissens, that little 122 bhp 1.4 TSI engine has a 620x410x16mm HE - about half the volume of the air-air IC, and amounts to 4067 cc volume. The stock S600 HE is 3228 cc.

Food for thought.

Nick

Last edited by Welwynnick; 11-24-2013 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 11-24-2013, 04:11 PM
  #129  
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So do you have results yet in which pump does the best IAT reduction and shortest recovery times?
I'm very keen to know what is best to be bought by me. :-)

Thanks alot Nick ;-)
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Old 11-25-2013, 08:36 AM
  #130  
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The best pump depends on the system, and in particular what HE you're using. The information needed is in post 118.

For my system, the CWA-100 pump will almost certainly be better than the CWA-200, as it should raise 0.85 vs 0.50 bar pressure, though you can get more flow from cheaper pumps.

I think the best bang for the buck is the Jabsco 50860 (for intermittent operation) or the Stuart Turner 12/50 (for continuous operation), though they may be noisy, and need periodic maintenance.

Pumps like the VariMax, Pierburg and EMP/Stewart benefit from electronic commutators, so they should be more reliable.

Its taken me six months of evenings and weekends to find out the hard way how to do it - a lot of that being down to figuring out what radiator to use, and how to fit it. In hindsight, I guess I would have skipped getting the Tekomotive pump controller (clever though it is) as the wiring took so long. I would simply wire any pump to come on with the ignition, and use the stock relay to switch it (unless using a Pierburg, which you can effectively wire up as if it was the relay itself).

In the meantime, I've been without a properly functioning IC system for six months, which is starting to get very frustrating....

Nick

Last edited by Welwynnick; 11-25-2013 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 11-25-2013, 02:37 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by Welwynnick View Post
The best pump depends on the system, and in particular what HE you're using. The information needed is in post 118.

For my system, the CWA-100 pump will almost certainly be better than the CWA-200, as it should raise 0.85 vs 0.50 bar pressure, though you can get more flow from cheaper pumps.

I think the best bang for the buck is the Jabsco 50860 (for intermittent operation) or the Stuart Turner 12/50 (for continuous operation), though they may be noisy, and need periodic maintenance.

Pumps like the VariMax, Pierburg and EMP/Stewart benefit from electronic commutators, so they should be more reliable.

Its taken me six months of evenings and weekends to find out the hard way how to do it - a lot of that being down to figuring out what radiator to use, and how to fit it. In hindsight, I guess I would have skipped getting the Tekomotive pump controller (clever though it is) as the wiring took so long. I would simply wire any pump to come on with the ignition, and use the stock relay to switch it (unless using a Pierburg, which you can effectively wire up as if it was the relay itself).

In the meantime, I've been without a properly functioning IC system for six months, which is starting to get very frustrating....

Nick
Thanks alot. Where can i get the Pierburg CWA-100 Pump? No results in germany so far. Maybe i check with Pierburg directly, as 500€ at MB Dealer is ridiculously expensive IMHO.
And is it "CWA-100" or "CWA-100.2" ???

Or i go with the Jabsco, it sounds really good and i have done a bit of research in germany about their products - they are top notch and they are market leader in pumps in the Marine sector
They call their pumps themselves as "heavy duty" and "long running" - whatever that means....

Check this: http://xylem.anbeca-software.de/Prod...ide%202013.pdf
Page 19 are the pumps we need? High Pressure or High Flow? I guess for the small IC lines, "high pressure" is better, right? :-)
****... http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/file...pspgs10-19.pdf
Motor Life Time of just 2500 hours... Pierburg and others have 6000 hours MTBF, IIRC

Last edited by Crissus; 11-25-2013 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:29 PM
  #132  
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Saying goodbye to the s600, did not want to waste any more time on a 10yr old car, bought a new M5. Good luck to all trying to get reliable power out of these v12s.
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Old 11-29-2013, 05:02 AM
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Sorry to hear that, but if you can afford a new M5 (or E63 or RS6) then why struggle with a ten year old car? From reading your other posts, it sounds like you gave up on your ABC. I would never consider running an S600 without serviceable ABC.

Nick
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:38 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Crissus View Post
Thanks alot. Where can i get the Pierburg CWA-100 Pump? No results in germany so far. Maybe i check with Pierburg directly, as 500€ at MB Dealer is ridiculously expensive IMHO.
I think I have found a source of a large quantity of Pierburg IC pumps for a low price.

I'm just trying to establish whether they're CWA-50 or CWA-100.

Nick
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:32 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Welwynnick View Post


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4004709720...84.m1423.l2649



This is a particularly interesting purpose made HE. It has 19mm inlet & outlet, which are mounted on the side - like a proper HE - so easy to hook-up. Its similar to the stock cooler, but twice as thick. Best of all, its being sold directly by the manufacturer, not a distributor, and they're happy to do a customized version. I asked them if they could make it 20" tall instead of 12", and they said yes - for 25% more. I'm sure they can make a single-pass version, but I might ask if they can do the attachment brackets as well.

Some of their alloy "race" rads actually have integrated oil coolers. That's unusual for this sort of product, so it makes me wonder if they could integrate an ABC cooler into this as well?

Nick
thats the intercooler i designed for my vr5 turbo running 2bar of boost
i has 4 chambers, so water needs to flow 4 times through it before leaving the intercooler. heres a pic of the prototype install on my car. i drove a
pwr radiator before. but i was way to small for my ammount of boost
tell david chris from germany sent you, and he should give you guys a small discount... he is a cool guy.

do you think, a 2 pass radiator is better than the 4 pass. i am thinking about reducing the water flow in the radiator
so water have more time to cool down.



at the moment i am running the ewp80 pump, but i will switch to the cwa-50 i think.
i can get it here for 249euros.
greetings from bavaria
chris from carlicious-parts

Last edited by Napkin; 12-07-2013 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:35 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Napkin View Post
thats the intercooler i designed for my vr5 turbo running 2bar of boost
i has 4 chambers, so water needs to flow 4 times through it before leaving the intercooler. heres a pic of the prototype install on my car. i drove a
pwr radiator before. but i was way to small for my ammount of boost
tell david chris from germany sent you, and he should give you guys a small discount... he is a cool guy.
do you think, a 2 pass radiator is better than the 4 pass. i am thinking about reducing the water flow in the radiator so water have more time to cool down.
at the moment i am running the ewp80 pump, but i will switch to the cwa-50 i think. i can get it here for 249euros.
greetings from bavaria
chris from carlicious-parts
I got in touch with David **** at Winner back in June, and was impressed with their speed, value and flexibility. I even drafted up a drawing of an S600 custom heat exchanger, but didn't take it any further as I was running out of available time. Next time round I think a custom HE from them would make a lot of sense.

Do I understand that they made that HE specifically for your application? Is that a modified VW Golf? What's the quality like? I'd like to think an S600 HE could become part of their standard product range, and wouldn't mind being a guinea pig.

I'd prefer a dual pass cooler, as the flow resistance will be high with 4-pass - definitely too high for an EWP80.

Nick

Last edited by Welwynnick; 12-09-2013 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:22 PM
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the HE you see on ebay and on my car is one and the same. it was my drawing and david did the rest.

its a modified jetta mk4 wagon with 450hp and 600nm running a 2.4l 5cylinder engine on 2bar of boost. due to the 19mm connectors i cant recognize any pressure drop in water flow. but i agree with you, maybe i will switch it to a 2pass design. first i need to get a bigger pump and bigger chargecooler.

same thing, different problem. bigger He -> to small pump, bigger pump -> to small chargecooler, etc. etc.

about the quality. its no pwr radiator if you ask for that but lets be realistic. that baby is hit by 1000s of small stones, bees, and other **** that you hit at 200 miles. so it dont need to look perfect. for that pricing the quality is more than ok. i dont need a polished bling bling HE just to show who has the biggest *****

so if you want a good HE for fair pricings. go with the winner cooler. and as you said, they are really fast on email support and realization of custom projects. as you see on the pic above, i drove a pwr HE before. and they cost an arm and a leg just because of the company name and 100% straight weldseams. i dont need this.. you dont see my HE anyway.

heres a pic of my engine bay. no benz, but a 1200kg wagon with 600nm is more than nice
http://abload.de/image.php?img=motorraumo3uwv.jpg

http://abload.de/image.php?img=bobo59humj.jpg

btw. did anyone of you tried "water wetter" in the cooling system. maybe it will help dropping the intercooler temps a bit.

Last edited by Napkin; 12-09-2013 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:20 PM
  #138  
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That's quite a project. I assume you gave Winner the design for the HE mountings, too?

That being the case, here's a proposition for Mercedes S600/CL600/SL600 owners:

Who's interested in a custom HE made and sold by Winner, a bolt-in replacement for the stock HE, using the existing mountings and connections?
Nick

Last edited by Welwynnick; 12-09-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 12-10-2013, 02:22 AM
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yeah of course i gave it to dave. its no problem to weld on the 4 mounting points. even i could do this

for me it was not that complicated. i need to drill holes anyway. but for replacement intercoolers of course its more important. should be no problem at all!
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Welwynnick View Post
Curiosity has gotten the better of me, and I've just bought a new S65 heat exchanger ...
Here are some pictures and measurements comparing the (new) S65 HE with my (very old) S600 HE.
The S600 HE matrix has 27 rows and measures 580 x 265 x 21 mm
The S65 HE matrix has 45 rows and measures 580 x 400 x 23 mm
The S65 HE obviously has the steering cooler built in, but its done in a strange way. You'd think that the smaller cooler would be attached to the bigger one, but if anything its the other way round.
Getting the right dimensions for a custom HE is tricky, but of course I already have a template - the S65 HE!

I think I've also realised the answer to an old question - why are the regular HE & condenser bolted at the top, but mounted with slots in bushes at the bottom? Any why the funny arrangement with the PAS cooler on the S65 HE?

Car parts are usually designed in a very specific way for very good reasons, even if we don't know what they are. Makers don't like spending more money unless they really have to.

I had originally imagined that you could bolt the HE to the rad at four points, but I guess you can't . It would probably put too much stress into the HE, as the main radiator expanded and contracted during heating and cooling cycles.

So I think I can take dimensions off the '65 HE for a custom '600 HE, but I'll have to add some compliance to the top mountings (where the condenser is bolted) to allow for expansion & contraction.

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Old 12-13-2013, 01:24 PM
  #141  
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OK, I finally finished the IC installation, but it doesn't quite work like I hoped.

Here's the new plumbing behind the IC's. The controller thermostat is plumbed into the RHS IC outlet, and the header tank filler is conencted to the LHS IC outlet. The bleed pipes to the header are connected to the IC inlets.

Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps-imag0864_zps791071d6.jpg

The header tank is mounted between the heater inlet and the engine compartment partition. Its bolted to a bracket that I mounted to a stud on the wheel arch. The hoses run through a grommet in the partition.

Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps-imag0861_zps9ac5dd6d.jpg

I mounted the pump controller in the ashtray, and ran the power and control lines to the pump controller through the RHS fuse box and through the dash. The pump is powered from the battery, and the controller is powered from the ignition. The connections can all be found at the fuse box and the small TT/AMG aux relay unit.

Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps-imag0869_zpscf6e059c.jpg

I removed the metal ash tray from the drawer and mounted the controller on brackets. The wires were connected with terminal blocks, and dressed to allow the drawer to open and close normally. I did try using crimp connections for all the wiring, but everywhere I wanted to use it, it was difficult to get the crimper into the space available. Screw-down terminal blocks and a screw-driver aren't so professional, but are much easier to use.

Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps-imag0871_zpsf9c3401c.jpg

Unfortunately, the header tank didn't fill the system anything like as well as it did when I had it connected down at the HE inlet. It took a very long time to fill the system, and since I've spent so long on this already, I can't justify the huge extra time to compare pumps in-situ, sorry. I'm just going to go with what I've got.

Since I still have lots of IC parts, including the stock HE and a flow-meter, I might try to set-up an IC pump test rig, but off the car (and configured without any air-locks!).

The other thing I might try is to connect the header tank to the HE inlet again. The direct route runs past the LHS turbo, which I want to avoid. But today it occurred to me that I might be able to run the fill pipe through the wheel arch, and route it downhill all the way. I think that might be the best way to do it.

Nick

Last edited by Welwynnick; 12-13-2013 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:16 AM
  #142  
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Well I'm grumpy now, this is getting hard work. I've been struggling to get the pump running under controller operation. I had them running together with a direct connection, but not with the controller fitted in the ashtray. I assumed it was my wiring, so I reworked and re-tested all of that. Continuity, isolation and voltages seemed to be right in every case, so I disconnected the controller and ran the pump directly from the ignition. Still didn't work. Seems that sometime during the installation the pump failed.

I do have a spare CWA-200, but it has a different configuration that would mean changing the installation. Since I have a CWA-100 now, I may as well fit that instead. I'm sure that will be a better IC pump. And I was really looking forwards to driving around in a V12TT on full song today, for the first time in 7 months.....

Nick
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Old 12-15-2013, 02:43 PM
  #143  
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I just found another Pierburg pump controller, by SFR Electronics in the Netherlands:

http://felixvandaal.nl/index.php/en/...cwapc-3-detail

http://felixvandaal.nl/downloads/MS_...al_EN_v1.0.pdf



This has "proper" digital display of target and actual temperatures, and looks easier to use than the Tecomotive unit, though the documentation isn't up to much. I think I would be inclined to use this, but its a bit late in the day now. Its about twice as expensive though - about 250 Euros.

Nick

Last edited by Welwynnick; 12-15-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 12-15-2013, 06:35 PM
  #144  
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Obviously, I've been scouring all sources for info on charge cooling.
I stumbled across a batch of bankrupt stock, from a company that (used to) convert vans to electric drive.
Pierburg pumps are used to cool batteries, as well as intakes.
So the other thing I need to do is find out for sure what these are: CWA-50's or 100's?

Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps-imag0873_zps391862af.jpg

Nick

Last edited by Welwynnick; 12-16-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:15 AM
  #145  
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I know I've got lots of other things to do at the moment, but I just had an idea. Using an engine rad as an HE isn't exactly a drop-in solution, and even when there is something the right size, the inlet & outlet ports always foul the hood, oil cooler, impact bar or whatever, and make fitting difficult. True heat exchangers always seem to have their ports in-line with the matrix, rather than perpendicular. Because of that, I had to modify the headlamp and rad support brackets on my car, which would have been good to avoid.

Now, if I have to do some sort of mod, then why not mod the rad instead? All I need are 3/4" inlet and outlets, so what's the chance of being able to fit them to an egine rad, and block off the stock ports? Maybe I can do that by cutting, gluing, welding or clamping a tank connector, or something like that. Plastic rad tanks can be repaired, so the capability must be there somewhere. Getting access to the inside of the end tanks would be desirable, so I might try to remove the tanks off my E-class rad, now that I've butchered it about enough to scrap it. How hard can it be....?

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Old 12-23-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Welwynnick View Post
Obviously, I've been scouring all sources for info on charge cooling.
I stumbled across a batch of bankrupt stock, from a company that (used to) convert vans to electric drive.
Pierburg pumps are used to cool batteries, as well as intakes.
So the other thing I need to do is find out for sure what these are: CWA-50's or 100's?



Nick
did you found out something. where did you get those from?
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:03 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Napkin View Post
did you found out something. where did you get those from?
They were a batch of new, unused stock from a bankrupt auction. I think the company was Azure Dynamics, who used to convert Ford Connect vans to electric drive. The pumps were part of teh battery cooling system. There were some heat exchangers for sale as well, but they didn't look very useful.
First I need to find some connectors, then I can test them.
Originally Posted by Welwynnick View Post
Getting access to the inside of the end tanks would be desirable, so I might try to remove the tanks off my E-class rad, now that I've butchered it about enough to scrap it. How hard can it be....?
So if you've wondered what your radiator looked like inside, this is it:

Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps-imag0886_zps5dae1773.jpg

Understanding Intercooling, Charge-Coolers, Heat Exchangers and Circulation Pumps-imag0880_zps8927650f.jpg

I bent the fingers back using screwdrivers and pliers, and the end tank tank came off. It's sealed to the radiator matrix with a rubber seal that's simply compressed in place. I don't think it looks too difficult to modify with end connectors on the tanks. That would make installation much easier.

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Old 01-11-2014, 04:49 PM
  #148  
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HELP!

I'm having problems integrating the AMG pump. I can't get it to work using the Tecomotive controller - it just runs all the time (and runs very well, too). Maybe the Tecomotive only works with the CWA-200, so I may yet go back to that.

I tried running the CWA-100 off the stock supply, and guess that's OK, but I really wanted
to have it running continuously. So I connected the stock relay to the ignition, but that didn't work either.

Does anyone know how the V12TT pump relay works?

Is it enables with a switched 12V control, or a switched ground?

Thanks, Nick

Edit: Scrub that, I think I've got it sorted.

Last edited by Welwynnick; 01-12-2014 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 01-17-2014, 11:03 AM
  #149  
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Ford Mondeo
Originally Posted by biturbine View Post
It would be upsetting to go through all these books of informations and supposed changes for the better only to see continued heat soak.
I only got drive my car with the upgraded IC system in anger for the first time this week. Once warm, I drove up all the long hills I could find, and ran WOT as much as I could. Although I haven't starting monitoring IC coolant temp or IAT yet, I did jump out and feel the IC's. They were cool to the touch, not cold, not warm, probably around 60F. The IC HE and all the pipes were the same. I never got that with that sort of driving before.

Nick
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:57 AM
  #150  
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SL65, 427 COBRA (CSX-3127)73 911S, 246GTS (DINO SPYDER), CORNICHE,1962 PORSCHE TWIN GRILLE ROADSTER+
Nick I am interested in buying a couple of the pumps...

If you think they are CWA100s I might be interested in a couple as spares for my SL65.

[email protected]

Jeff
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