Glowplug Nightmare
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Joined: May 2003
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From: Washington DC / No. Virginia; and Cape Cod, MA
'71 280SE
Glowplug Nightmare
One of my glowplugs needed to be replaced this week. They're original, and at 80K miles, I wasn't that surprised or concerned.
My independent mechanic could only remove one of the six. So, after I paid him for his time, I bit the bullet and took it to the dealer.
The tech at the dealer had more success - he got out four of the six. He showed me that there was a 1/2 inch of carbon buildup below the threads of the plug, which had hardened and esentially siezed them in place.
So, now my head is at the machine shop, waiting to have the #2 and #6 plugs removed.
The dealer tells me that this is not so unusual!
Sounds like poor design to me. What the dealer can't tell me is what the life expectancy of the part is, nor what the recommended replacement interval is.
Did M-B really think it was acceptable to have to remove the head to remove a glowplug?
Anyone have any experience/insight on this?
Regards,
Ed
My independent mechanic could only remove one of the six. So, after I paid him for his time, I bit the bullet and took it to the dealer.
The tech at the dealer had more success - he got out four of the six. He showed me that there was a 1/2 inch of carbon buildup below the threads of the plug, which had hardened and esentially siezed them in place.
So, now my head is at the machine shop, waiting to have the #2 and #6 plugs removed.
The dealer tells me that this is not so unusual!
Sounds like poor design to me. What the dealer can't tell me is what the life expectancy of the part is, nor what the recommended replacement interval is. Did M-B really think it was acceptable to have to remove the head to remove a glowplug?
Anyone have any experience/insight on this?
Regards,
Ed
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Joined: Oct 2002
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http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...lug+relay+1996
"Also, apparently the glow plug relay on some models can go awry and cause electrical and structural failures of the glow plugs themselves, which means you end up drilling them out, which means the head comes off. "
"Also, apparently the glow plug relay on some models can go awry and cause electrical and structural failures of the glow plugs themselves, which means you end up drilling them out, which means the head comes off. "
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Joined: May 2003
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From: LI, NY
02 W163, 84 W123, 03 E39, 98 E39
Glow Plugs
I can not speak of MB's new design for the E300D. What I can tell you is that the old W123 300D, 5 cyl turbo is/was bullet proof. I have put over 200K on three different W123 diesels with little or no major mecanical problems. And yes, I change(d) all of my own burnt out glow plugs myself, without problems.
Many people now have the impression that MB is cutting corners and saving money and that they do not seem to be as concerned about quality or duribility as they were in the past. I don't know if your experience may be related to this.
Good luck.
Many people now have the impression that MB is cutting corners and saving money and that they do not seem to be as concerned about quality or duribility as they were in the past. I don't know if your experience may be related to this.
Good luck.
Thread Starter
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Joined: May 2003
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From: Washington DC / No. Virginia; and Cape Cod, MA
'71 280SE
SLCPUNK,
Thanks for directing me to that link. Apparently I'm not the only one who's had this problem.
$1100 to replace glowplugs with no complications (largely because of the labor/taking off the exhaust manifold), and $2500 if you need to pull the head.
I'm torn whether to dump the car now, or cross my fingers and hope this outrageous expense averages out over time.
Cheers,
Ed
Thanks for directing me to that link. Apparently I'm not the only one who's had this problem.
$1100 to replace glowplugs with no complications (largely because of the labor/taking off the exhaust manifold), and $2500 if you need to pull the head.
I'm torn whether to dump the car now, or cross my fingers and hope this outrageous expense averages out over time.
Cheers,
Ed
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 187
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That's a tough one. Do a search on that forum and read as much about your model year as you can. I don't remember much, but I know some years were trouble, and some weren't that bad for the newer diesels. I think if you do keep it, make sure you change the faulty glow plug relay (if that is indeed the problem). Good luck.
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From: Frankfurt Germany
W203 220 CDI T-Model
My glowplugs died after 38.000 miles and my MB garage told me, that's commond for the new direct injection engines (mine was a OM 611 DE 22 LA). The problem is, that these engine have a much higer compression than the older.
In the German MB forum, members often reports, that they can't remove the glowplugs. Workarrounds are trie to use rost solvent over night or remove them on the hot engine, if it doesn't work on cold engines. Otherwise, MB garages in Germany drills up the glow plug and use Helicoil repair kits without removing the head.
The new engine can report, whitch glowplug is defect, but in my case, 1000 miles after I replaced the first one, the next one was defect. Therefore I recomend to cange the all. I payed 90,- EUR at the MB garage to replace one and 120,- to replace the last three.
Dirk
with a brand new OM646 DE 22 LA
In the German MB forum, members often reports, that they can't remove the glowplugs. Workarrounds are trie to use rost solvent over night or remove them on the hot engine, if it doesn't work on cold engines. Otherwise, MB garages in Germany drills up the glow plug and use Helicoil repair kits without removing the head.
The new engine can report, whitch glowplug is defect, but in my case, 1000 miles after I replaced the first one, the next one was defect. Therefore I recomend to cange the all. I payed 90,- EUR at the MB garage to replace one and 120,- to replace the last three.
Dirk
with a brand new OM646 DE 22 LA
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From: McLean, VA
ed-300td-
We had the same issue on our 98 TurboDiesel, although the head did not needed to be drilled. The glowplugs needed to be replaced at approx. 80K miles and was told this was normal due to the low quality diesel fuel that we have in the states and that when the new diesel fuel arrives around 2005-6 this would not be an issue.
However, after hearing what "DiWi" had to say about the new CDI engines and having the glowplugs replaced at 38K I am thinking this is not true and that the supposedly "new and better" CDI engines will just be that much more costly to maintain.
We had the same issue on our 98 TurboDiesel, although the head did not needed to be drilled. The glowplugs needed to be replaced at approx. 80K miles and was told this was normal due to the low quality diesel fuel that we have in the states and that when the new diesel fuel arrives around 2005-6 this would not be an issue.
However, after hearing what "DiWi" had to say about the new CDI engines and having the glowplugs replaced at 38K I am thinking this is not true and that the supposedly "new and better" CDI engines will just be that much more costly to maintain.
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From: Frankfurt Germany
W203 220 CDI T-Model
Originally posted by Turbo2
ed-300td-
We had the same issue on our 98 TurboDiesel, although the head did not needed to be drilled. The glowplugs needed to be replaced at approx. 80K miles and was told this was normal due to the low quality diesel fuel that we have in the states and that when the new diesel fuel arrives around 2005-6 this would not be an issue.
However, after hearing what "DiWi" had to say about the new CDI engines and having the glowplugs replaced at 38K I am thinking this is not true and that the supposedly "new and better" CDI engines will just be that much more costly to maintain.
ed-300td-
We had the same issue on our 98 TurboDiesel, although the head did not needed to be drilled. The glowplugs needed to be replaced at approx. 80K miles and was told this was normal due to the low quality diesel fuel that we have in the states and that when the new diesel fuel arrives around 2005-6 this would not be an issue.
However, after hearing what "DiWi" had to say about the new CDI engines and having the glowplugs replaced at 38K I am thinking this is not true and that the supposedly "new and better" CDI engines will just be that much more costly to maintain.
In the W123 days, a typical glowplug was replaced between 30K to 60K, depending on the environment. Diesel fuel quality was verry poor these days and also the quality was not so good. With the W124 and W210 diesel engine glowplugs live was exteded dramatically, but this changed, when Mercedes introduced the direct injection diesel engines. The first series (used until 2001) of glowplugs from Bosch was not optimized for the CDI environment and therefore it caused problems.
Mercedes Germany knows this problem and therefore, depending on service history, milage & age of the vehicle gives a rebate of 50% to 100% on the replacement of defect glow plugs. A signgle glow plug costs 10 EUR.
By the way spark plugs must be replaced frequently and costs the same. The good thing on the new CDI engines beside of power is the overall mainanace cost reduction. A CDI engine need new oil every 12,500 to 17,000 miles (depending on ASSYST). In the W123 days it was every 5,000miles
Dirk
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From: Washington DC / No. Virginia; and Cape Cod, MA
'71 280SE
Thanks for the info, guys.
Turbo2, I don't really mind tha the plugs need to be replaced at 80K (at this point, even for $1100 at HBL). But what frosts me is when the dealer tels me it's not unusual to have to drill out the glowplugs, or even remove the head to do so! As if that's just a normal part of E300 maintenance.
The dealer has also suggested that this problem is caused, in part, by our inferior grade of diesel here in the US. I can't imagine that M-B wasn't completely aware of that when they brought this engine to the US (in '95?). They got a 50-state emissions certification on this engine, for heaven's sake.
Dirk, You realize that my '99 W210 is not a CDI, gel? The E320 CDI will not be available here in the US until next year.
Cheers,
Ed
Turbo2, I don't really mind tha the plugs need to be replaced at 80K (at this point, even for $1100 at HBL). But what frosts me is when the dealer tels me it's not unusual to have to drill out the glowplugs, or even remove the head to do so! As if that's just a normal part of E300 maintenance.
The dealer has also suggested that this problem is caused, in part, by our inferior grade of diesel here in the US. I can't imagine that M-B wasn't completely aware of that when they brought this engine to the US (in '95?). They got a 50-state emissions certification on this engine, for heaven's sake.
Dirk, You realize that my '99 W210 is not a CDI, gel? The E320 CDI will not be available here in the US until next year.
Cheers,
Ed
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From: Frankfurt Germany
W203 220 CDI T-Model
Originally posted by ed-E300TD
Thanks for the info, guys.
Dirk, You realize that my '99 W210 is not a CDI, gel? The E320 CDI will not be available here in the US until next year.
Cheers,
Ed
Thanks for the info, guys.
Dirk, You realize that my '99 W210 is not a CDI, gel? The E320 CDI will not be available here in the US until next year.
Cheers,
Ed
We also wait for the OM648 DE 32 LA with carbon-particulate filter. The delay relies in the availability of the filter. Mercedes currently offers the option only for the small diesel engines in the C and E-Class sedans and C-Class sport sedans.
Dirk
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From: Cornwall, NY
e320 2000
Lots of talk about inferior diesel
Inferior diesel sounds like a cop out to me.
Diesel is diesel. Some blends may contain more sulfur and perhaps more ash but it is all strictly regulated here in the States and North America.
Do Europeans use gasoil in their diesels? ( Gasoil in Europe is a rough equivalent to No2 heating oil in the eastern US.) Gasoil on a world scale is allowed to contain more sulfur, ash ( a source of carbon fouling) and heavier ends than world scale diesel fuel.
Can anyone describe the physical properties of a superior vs inferior diesel to me?
Any MB mechanics/hydrocarbon chemists out there?
Diesel is diesel. Some blends may contain more sulfur and perhaps more ash but it is all strictly regulated here in the States and North America.
Do Europeans use gasoil in their diesels? ( Gasoil in Europe is a rough equivalent to No2 heating oil in the eastern US.) Gasoil on a world scale is allowed to contain more sulfur, ash ( a source of carbon fouling) and heavier ends than world scale diesel fuel.
Can anyone describe the physical properties of a superior vs inferior diesel to me?
Any MB mechanics/hydrocarbon chemists out there?
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Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Belgium
In our workshop we fix about 35 to 45 MB's a day (and most of them are diesels) and it is years ago that we needed to pull the head off to remove the glow plugs.
It just depends on the way how you remove them, if you have the right tools (e.g. if a glow plug does crack, to remove it without needing to pull the cyl. head off), if you are patient enough, etc...
It just depends on the way how you remove them, if you have the right tools (e.g. if a glow plug does crack, to remove it without needing to pull the cyl. head off), if you are patient enough, etc...
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From: Frankfurt Germany
W203 220 CDI T-Model
Re: Lots of talk about inferior diesel
Originally posted by suntubi
Inferior diesel sounds like a cop out to me.
Diesel is diesel. Some blends may contain more sulfur and perhaps more ash but it is all strictly regulated here in the States and North America.
Do Europeans use gasoil in their diesels? ( Gasoil in Europe is a rough equivalent to No2 heating oil in the eastern US.) Gasoil on a world scale is allowed to contain more sulfur, ash ( a source of carbon fouling) and heavier ends than world scale diesel fuel.
Can anyone describe the physical properties of a superior vs inferior diesel to me?
Any MB mechanics/hydrocarbon chemists out there?
Inferior diesel sounds like a cop out to me.
Diesel is diesel. Some blends may contain more sulfur and perhaps more ash but it is all strictly regulated here in the States and North America.
Do Europeans use gasoil in their diesels? ( Gasoil in Europe is a rough equivalent to No2 heating oil in the eastern US.) Gasoil on a world scale is allowed to contain more sulfur, ash ( a source of carbon fouling) and heavier ends than world scale diesel fuel.
Can anyone describe the physical properties of a superior vs inferior diesel to me?
Any MB mechanics/hydrocarbon chemists out there?
Specific weight : 820-845 kg/m^3
Cetan value : >51.0
Cetan index : >46.0
Viscosity : 2.0 to 4.5 mm^2/s
Flashpoint : >55C
Sulfur : max 350 mg/kg
Diesel that you can get today has a cetan value of 55 and a sulfur value of 10mg/kg (10ppm).
Dirk
