BritguyUSA85

My Dad's lookin to get a car to replace our jag, he seems to be leaning toward the new VW Phaeton, with the W12 engine... just wanted to get ur all's takes on it..... (we've already got an S500 4-Matic, so not much sense in gettin 2)

Josh K

This really should be in OT, but from what I've seen they look pretty nice. The interior is beautiful as well. I'm sure you'll hear people balking at the idea of paying so much for a VW, but IMO, how is it different than paying a lot more for a Toyota simply because it has an "L" instead of a T on in? ;0)

vraa

Because the you can't get a LS430 from Toyota..

S55inPA

my local dealer has yet to get the new Phaeton.
from what i've seen in Auto magazines is the interior is
very nice. the outside is attractive and looks a lot like a
Passat on steriods. this could be good and bad...depending
on how you like the Passat. Car & Drive in a recent review
complained that the Phaeton(steel) had some flex in the body over
uneven pavement. they said the same comment about
the new Audi A8L. well i just test drove an A8L(aluminum). the car
was very, very solid and drove beautifully. keep in mind i live in northeastern Pennsylvania where the roads are *****ty! in the end you have to test drive any car before you buy. oh...one more thing....first year gremlins...most likely it will have its fair share. the Audi A8L it's sister car has had some first year glitches.

marklu98

REALLY? no offense~~but what are these then?
Rebadged Toyota? (despite some minor differences)
Correct me if i'm wrong~~

marklu98

WannaBeAMG

no, not rebadged. in japan lexus doesnt exist, yet. correct me if I'M wrong but you cannot buy a Celsior in the U.S.

WannaBeAMG

actually the phaeton is incredibly strong, built like a fortress. thats why the thing weighs over 5000 lbs., in V8 form.

according to Car and Driver Sept. '02; "In the hard setting, the suspension is taut, jerking harshly over bumps and occasionally crashing through to the body, despite torsional rigidity that sets a production-car record of 27,300 pound-feet per degree". it wasnt flex they complained of, its was impact harshness, which surprised them because of what i stated. for comparison i believe ive read that the MB S-Class (W220) is in the 19,000's for torsional rigidity.

purely from a luxury standpoint the new Phaeton is hard to top. for the money that is. ive read good things of its handling, but not great. it obviously wont handle like a 7 or even an S, but is more than capable and highly stable.

marklu98

yes you're absolutely right~~the celsior along with many other lexus-branded toyota are not available anywhere else but in japan~~and as an ex-lexus owner~i have to say that "lexus" are indeed very nice cars~NO doubt about that!!!

what i'm getting at is that whether they are really worth the extra bucks just by being branded as lexus~when they really toyota~~ ~~BTW, I have nothing against "toyota"!!!


Here are just some other pics~
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=54300

S55inPA

hi guys,

here is a link to the Car & Driver article comparing the
S,7,A8L,LS,Jag, and Phaeton from the most recent issue.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=7359

wannabeamg...it's not uncommon that car magazines speak
very highly about a vehicle and then trash it in a head to head
comparison. i don't know why but this seems to happen
in all of the major car magazines.
like i said earlier...the A8L drove very nice and was as
solid as my hard head:p so i think you have to drive a car
for yourself and make your own decision.

marklu98...where do you think those photos of the LS
were taken? just curious

WannaBeAMG

i agree. often an initial review of a car is very positive and later on when they throw it in a comparo they really pick on any shortcomings. though in this instance i think thier remarks were consistent regarding the "tremors" or impact harshness over bumps. i was trying to clarify that it isnt (or shouldnt be given the claimed rigidity) body flex body but something different.

Wimbush

About three weeks ago I test drove the Phaeton W12 as I'm considering a 12 cylinder for my next purchase. I was very impressed with the fit and finish and quality of materials. The ride quality and handling were both adequate. The sound system is fantastic. Overall, for a 12 cylinder, the car is well crafted and imho represents a good buy for the $88,500 sticker.

Although the interior is luxurious, it does not compare to its 12 cylinder competitors. The S600 and BMW 760 are far more luxurious with leather and/or wood on every touchable surface. Not the case with the Phaeton. There is a lot of plastic where there should be leather (e.g., dash, doors, console, etc.).

There is a lot of new technology on the car (e.g., hide-a-way air vents, trunk hinges, etc.) however a few important gizmos are missing. For example, the car has CD-based navigation instead of DVD and does not have a phone. I find it hard to believe that these options aren't available.

The engine sounds really nice and is very responsive. However, its horsepower/torque (420/406) pales in comparison to the BMW 760 (438/444) and MB S600 (493/590). The car handles okay but feels very heavy. By comparison, my S430 felt very small when I returned to it.

Yes, it is a wonderful car that looks good inside and out and has a very nice engine. However, I feel the W12 is only worthy of being compared to the V8 MB, BMW, or Audi, not the V12s. As for the Phaeton V8, no way would I consider it.

The salesman was clueless about luxury vehicles and even the Phaeton. I don't expect sales people to spend as much time as I reading about cars; however, he made outrageous statements about other brands and didn't even know many of the basics about the Phaeton. At one point I felt as though I was conducting a clinic.

One more point. The salesman says that only 343 W12s were shipped to the U.S. and they are all the same color and spec. He was trying to convince me that this would increase the vehicle resale value and make the car "special". This is silly when you consider that if VW plans to continue selling the car, a person could order another just like it; again, there was nothing special about it compared to BMW or MB V12s. Moreover, he was saying that subsequent cars will sale for over $100, 000. If this is true, then I would surely expect to see a car more comparable to the 760 and S600. As it stands now in its current configuration, the car will surely flop with a higher retail. Not to mention that I don't get the sense that the car is in great demand. I still see the same W12 and V8s on the lot after over three weeks.

Patz

Just curious, does the new Maseratti sedan come with a V12 option or is it just a V8?

And, is it even available in the US yet?

That might be a car to consider, its beautiful and would be EXTREMELY rare

BritguyUSA85

Actually I was thinking about suggesting that, but I don't think its coming out in the USA until like next year....

Patz

Yea i didn't think so, but I would definetely wait for that, it is soooo awesome

vraa

Oh your absolutley right, heck when my friends ask me what kind of car I drive, I say a Toyo Celsior.

I actually was meaning that you can't get a Toyota Celsior in USoA. In 2005 though, I think Lexus will actually start selling in Japan. Just something I remember reading at ClubLexus.