kalilu

Hi everyone and happy mothers day. I am new to this forum. I have a 2003 s600 5.5L V12 engine that is lock due to flood. Everything else work but the engine will not turn over just clicking noise from the starter. I took out all the spark plugs and try turn engine manually and still would not turn over. so I was wondering if I can used 6.0L V12 engine block and cylinder heads. can someone help me.

MJ50

moved to W220 forum...

ZephTheChef

I am sure it's possible, but I don't know the cars well enough yet to know all the intimate details. At best, it could swap right in with a few simple things like fuel injectors and pump upgrade, and a computer recalibration. At worst, it would require wiring harness/computer changes, and possibly other parts and pieces from an S65 donor car. For the most part, it should fit in there like it was made to (since it was).

Jack_88

I would expect any problems with swapping in a 6.0 would be programming related. How much, I've no idea. I'd look in your area for a good mechanic who knows both cars well, and might be able to tell you what sort of differences between them might give you trouble.

Welwynnick

You're not thinking in terms of the 1990's V12 are you? Just checking. That was an entirely different engine. If you're considering a 2005 engine, well, maybe you could, but you'd definitely need the ECU, TCU, transmission selector and ignition switch as well. The whole transmission and brakes are different, too. A 6.0 would likely attract a high price, much more than a 5.5.

Nick

tusabes

The 6.0 v12 will not swap with your 5.5 v12

Find the right motor

Welwynnick

Why not?

ZephTheChef

That's kind of like saying you can't replace a 5.3L GM V8 with a 6.0L GM V8. Sure there might be a few small details to change, but it will definitely swap.

Jack_88

I do agree it may not be worth the effort and expense. Cheaper to buy a car that came with the right engine, I'd think, by the time you figure in parts and labor.

ZephTheChef

Yeah, I was even tempted to say that about just replacing with another stock engine. If you're not doing it yourself parts and labor could easily get up around the cost of just buying a whole running S600. If you're patient, nice 03-06 ones can be found in the $10-12,000 range now.

tusabes

He wanted to know if the 6.0 block and cylinder heads would swap into his car , which to me means he wants a plug n play direct swap - not a custom motor transplant

Sure You can put a 6.0 v12 in a Hyundai with enough time and money but it's nit what he was asking and its not going to be a direct swap

ZephTheChef

First off, it's super unclear from the original post if he was asking whether it is possible or if he is asking whether it is a 100% direct swap, so the answer is not YES or NO, it's "it depends". It is not as helpful to just say no as it is to discuss the possibilities and options.

Since the cars literally came with both engines, it can definitely be made to work with all factory parts, no hacking or custom fabrication...and most parts are likely completely interchangeable or the same exact part. It's a far cry from installing a completely different engine that never came in a particular chassis.

tusabes

The title of this thread is 2003 engine block swap

The question in the op is if he can swap the bock and heads from a 6.0.
To me this means he wants to buy only these parts and put them in his car to get it running

That cannot be done

Of course this was op first post and never came back , so is unlikely ever to return to this forum so we will never know

kraut56

In my humble experienced opinion, you should always try to avoid substituting/upgrading components on these now old cars, as the technical controller, module and wiring changes ( not even looking at software in the controller modules) will only drive you into a deep depression (mentally).

Although MB build these cars in many different engine configurations, unlike Detroit they did not not make them universally interchangeable.

So think! (unless you have unlimited money to spend)

My $ 00.02 worth.

ZephTheChef

Clearly I'm in the minority, so I'll just shut up about it.

Jack_88

If you can find a totaled 6.0 equipped car, that would be the only cost effective-ish way to do it I can see. It is doable, of course, but it's a matter of time and money, with the possibility of significant trial and error.

ZephTheChef

It is literally the same engine with a slightly bigger bore and slightly longer stroke. Same exact ignition system parts. We know the fuel injectors and pump are interchangeable. Those are the only basic requirements to run it. I am confident an S600 computer would run it with no significant changes. Tuning would be required to get it perfect (mostly just to turn the boost up), but it should run and run well, especially in closed loop with minimal changes.

It would definitely be better to have an entire parts car for when you run into the inevitable, "oh hey, this is a little different, I better change it" moments. But it really shouldn't be rocket science. But there again, I'd probably rather just spend the cost difference between a 5.5 and a 6.0 on bigger turbos for the new 5.5. They will perform very similarly anyway as far as the engine itself goes.

Jack_88

The S600 computer would not run the 6.0. As I said in an earlier post, the issue is not so much hardware as it is programming. I can't speak for these engines specifically, but it could easily be necessary to need to snag a couple modules from a 6.0 car to get it to work, since a shop may not be able to appropriately reprogram the existing modules.

ZephTheChef

You're giving the electronics too much credit. They only know what you tell them.

I would bet my car that an S600 computer will run it. Why, specifically, wouldn't it? I have found literally nothing different about the engine by comparing part numbers of all the critical engine management components that would cause the computer to even know the difference. Some different internal parts yes, but none that any of the electronics care or even have any way to determine that a change has been made. The most significant change that has been made in terms of what the engine management would even care about is the displacement and cam/cylinder head changes.

Worst-case, you're talking about a 9% displacement difference and corresponding fuel requirements at the same load/manifold pressure. Judging by the power difference achieved vs the boost pressures at which they do it, the camshaft changes and reshaped combustion chamber are insignificant...maybe another couple percent tops. If this is overcome by the injector sizing difference then the fuel delivery maps in the computer are most likely almost identical or at least within a few percent. If this is overcome strictly in the calibration then there would have been no need for larger injectors in the S65, as the S600 is only at 76% duty cycle with a tune that puts it at basically the same stock output. In either case, going to 10%ish larger flow-rate injectors (if that's not in fact what the S65 injectors deliver) would prevent the computer from even needing to know about the engine changes in order to maintain accurate fueling math. This flow rate change could also be done by changing the base fuel pressure to around 67 psi instead of the stock 55. It's a fixed pressure that does not rise with boost, and is controlled by closed-loop feedback from the fuel pressure sensor. Modifying or replacing this pressure sensor to operate at the higher pressure would trick the pump control module...and would probably not be hard to do. The ECU has no part in any of that, and wouldn't know the difference.

To look into it beyond that, even if you didn't correct the fueling, with imprecise fueling that's say 10% off, it's not a big deal. That's well within the closed-loop correction abilities of the computer so low load would be fine, and at WOT almost any turbo engine will run very well with anything from a 10:1 to 12.5:1 AFR under max power. Actually, even much leaner even if you aren't knock-limited. That's literally a 25% window as far as safe fueling goes where there will be no significant problems, just a less than optimal peak output (something like 5-8% less power on the richest side of that 25% swing). 10% fueling error is no big deal...having flow-tested all sorts of injectors from all kinds of cars over the years, I know that your average set of 100k mile stock injectors is going to have a 5% variation in flow between the best and worst injector anyway.

There's really no reason it wouldn't run and run well with just very minor and relatively inexpensive changes.

kraut56

There was a few years back a guy on the other forum with an S600 TT and a blown engine. So he bought the same year engine (but from a C 600) - was supposed to be the same.
The things the poor guy went thru, and he was very good at fixing it, was unbelievable:
Oil pan shape different, internal oil pump pick-up tube different, for some strange reason all connectors on the engine different, so he could not use the cars harness, etc.

Eventually, he got it all to work, but what a job!
Search for it on the forum and enjoy!

ZephTheChef

I deal with that kind of stuff on almost a daily basis on salvage replacement engines and transmissions. By no means is that a problem specific to Mercedes cars. Same basic engine, swapping some brackets and accessories is expected if it's from a different year or model vehicle. Very easy stuff to figure out when they are sitting side by side. Also, with the exception of that wiring difference, none of that is stuff that would keep the computer from running it....just easily fixable fitment differences.

Not sure how or why the harness connectors would be different since all the sensors are literally the same exact part number between the two for every critical sensor that I've looked up. It may be different going from a C or an SL to an S...but from S65 to S600 I don't think there would be too many surpises.

tusabes

You are presuming it's a 6.0 from a s65/sl65/cl65

The much more likely engine op found is a 6.0 from the w140 chassis which is a totally different engine . Considering op bought a hydro locked flood damaged car it's safe to assume they were looking for the cheapest v12 block they could find , not from a s65

ZephTheChef

Since Nick had attempted to clarify that earlier in the thread, I was going on the assumption the only viable option we were talking about was a 65 M275. But you are correct, we have no idea what engine the OP is talking about. I wasn't aware the OP had bought the car in this condition, but if this is in fact an insurance auction deal then you're absolutely right it's safer to assume he is after a cheaper engine, not a more powerful one.