I agree that the MBs of the 90s if kept in good condition look amazing on the road. I always notice them and I was always fond of the W140 style. When the W220 came out I loved that car too, and I'm happy that my C-Class has simlar styling to the W220 S-Class since I can't buy an S-Class at this point in my life. I know this is my own bias, but any old MB, as long as it is in pristine condition, looks great to me. The only other brands I feel this is true is Rolls or Bentley. Other old cars to me just look old. I think MB, Rolls, and Bentley have a very classic, elegant and timeless look.

As far as the Lexus looking like the ES, I don't have any problem with that. Mercedes does similar things with their models. The current W203 C-Class looks like the W220 S-Class, and the previous W202 C-Class resembeled the W140 S. Take a look at the spyshots of the 2008 W204 C-Class and you will see MB modeled it after the new W221 S. What i do have a problem with is the Lexus looking like or sharing any parts with their cheaper line Toyota. This is what I don't like about Japanese luxury cars, they always seem to feel a little too much like their their cheaper family of cars.

MB has been good about keeping the part sharing one-way from MB to Chrysler. That may change in the future--I recently read an article about how Damiler-Chrylser will start manufacturing new V6s in the US for both MB and Chrysler. I hope this is wrong or I read it wrong, because I think that keeping the two separte has been a key to keeping MB successful.

 

oh I forgot to tell blazinginder that your SL is gorgeous. I have never liked white cars, but after seeing that pic, I'm beginning to change my mind.

 

I'm sorry, but that bit is not a useful argument. Spending $100k+ for a Lexus LS is the same as spending $100k+ for a Benz. The LS does not share its chassis with any other Toyota or Lexus product. It doesn't share an engine (at present) with any other vehicle. It's not built at the Camry factory, it's built at one facility that has the quality-control tolerances Lexus demands for the LS. The build quality is impeccable. If Toyota uses their engineering and management principles to make the LS work, and just uses some of their parts bin (like Jaguar, Audi, Bentley, everyone) and that makes it "a toyota or honda or nissan underneath", so what? If you're going to critique the styling, fine. If you're going to say it's not a dynamic performer as an S-Class, probably true. But address it on the merits, rather than name-calling it as a fancy Toyota. I don't even call Maybachs a fancy S-Class, even though it uses the S-Class platform and engines (the OLD one to boot).

It seems a good time to recall the VW Phaeton. That was a superb luxury car (still is, where you can buy it). Superb features. Good powertrains. Too heavy by half-a-ton, but still a a good car. It would have sold well as an Audi A8/A10. It probably could have been its own brand, sold it as a new Horch, and done well. People couldn't get past the $90,000 for a VOLKSWAGEN! thing, even if it was a great car built a dedicated facility that has since been built Bentleys. So it flops. Contrast this with Toyota, who created a luxury brand so that people wouldn't have to have a Toyota badge on their 50-grand car, and it sells like hotcakes. Lexus is the top luxury brand in America; I believe the LS is the best-seller in the top-flight luxury class in the States. Clearly, they're doing something right.

Germans do not have the monopoly on good design and engineering. Their cars are typically sportier, have more of a presence, etc., but I have heard enough horror stories about German engineering gone awry, or just over-engineered. All the evidence I have seen says that Japanese cars as well-put together as any vehicles on the road. Frankly, European marques have for too long had a ridiculous institutional arrogance; M-B and Volvo both said they weren't worried at all about Lexus and Infiniti when the brands were created. Oops. Maybe if they (like some of the people on this board) hadn't been so caught up in the assumption that the Japanese car companies, makers of rice-burners, couldn't build a "real" luxury car, they wouldn't have lost so much market share to them, hmmm?

Ummmm...no offense, NevadaJack, but you need to do some research. This is the most complete, ground-up redesign of the LS yet undertaken. It's a new plaform, a brand-new engine design, and a brand-new first-in-the-world 8-speed transmission. Is it totally ground-breaking? Of course not. That's not how Lexus does things, and people whine when they do. It's the Kaizen appoach, incremental improvements. But it is MUCH more than a "facelift".

To quote a second time: "Build a car with it's own pesonality and character...one that stands on it's own base and is different." That's exactly what they do! and you complain about it! They don't make overtly sporty cars, they don't make the sort of luxury car YOU would want to buy (and so you say no-one else shoudl either), they make the sort of luxury car that I want to buy. That's their base, and that's what's different. They are chasing a different buyer, arguably the sort of buyer M-B used to have before they decided to fight Sportiness Wars with BMW. And good for Lexus for not charging an arm and a leg extra for a new design. The fact that LS's are less expensive than the S-Class is something to applaud, not sneer at. Here's an interesting factoid: a Camry bought in 1995 cost MORE in non-constant dollars than the Camry sold in '02, despite two redesigns in that period. When adjusted for inflation, the difference is even more staggering. I have yet to fully understand how Toyota/Leuxus do it, but I suspect it has lots to do with their managment philosophy of constant incremental improvement, and the general Japanese cultural imperative of subdued minimalism.

You are correct in some respects about the styling. Lexus always aped M-B on the LS designs. This one, while it has some elements, to put it no higher, from other Japanese vehicles, is a more integrated approach that attempts to forge Lexus's own design aesthetic. They are, after all, only 17 years old. It takes time to build a brand identity, and more time to decide how to shape and mold the design to reflect that identity, and still more time to decide and react to what customers want in the styling and design. I think Lexus design is more integrated and unique now than it has been in the past, as Robert Cumberford has noted, although they still borrow liberally at times. The LS, after all, has a Hoffmeister kink.

Appealing to the "gimmick" thing is bit disingenuous, since so many people here and at MBUSA are harping on about all the new features on the W221, from the Distronic Plus with brake intervention (pioneered by Acura, by the way) to the night-vision system. ALL luxury cars are becoming about gimmicks. It's just part of the game to woo buyers. Because of course when M-B went from 5 speeds to 7 in their transmissions, it wasn't just to one-up BMW, right?

The speakers thing was kinda funny. I know it may seem silly to you, but Lexus has always been known for their killer sound systems from Mark Levinson, which are probably the best in the industry. That's just a part of what Lexus is. One may as well mock Mercedes for making an AMG version of every damned vehicle they sell, even the R-Class minivan-***-wagons (and that's *** in the Latin sense, so don't titillated, people). Bad example, although true. But quiet cabins with superb auditory environments ARE just a part of Lexus, just like sporty handling is part and parcel of the BMW experience.

Lexus is growing up. They're finding a design direction after years of mish-mashed design themes, and honing what it is they do, while gradually expanding the franchise with sportier offerings like the IS, and the sportier-than-last-time LS. The LF-A should help this along substantially when it arrives in a year or so. They aren't in any hurry; Japanese companies always take the long view, and Lexus is no exception. I wish they'd just move a little faster on a V-12 LS, but the LS 600h L should be plenty of car when it arrives in the spring. They don't lead in much, but they certainly have a head-start in luxury hybrids, which will be handy for them: aside from fuel economy and emissions advantages, electric motors give great off-the-line power at very low revs. It'll be very interesting to see where Lexus is 5 years from now.

pmb600: I hope to God you're wrong. The last thing Mercedes needs is engines and parts built by Chrysler. I can see it now: rednecks pulling up alongside AMG sedans at traffic lights: "That thing got a Hemi?" And the furiously-blushing owner, having to nod as he fires up the Dodge Ram truck engine and rumbles off the line, hand-built by robots operated by Fred and Joe.

 

I was thinking the same thing last night when I saw the ES and LS next to each other. The C and S often share similar lines and the fact that they, and the Lex, do doesn't bother me much. What does bother me, as you said, is going down in the ladder to get parts/technology. If you think about it I bet the LS rides just as smooth as an ES because I know for a fact the ES has a very comfortable, detached from the road feel, whereas if you drive the S and the C you can definitely tell a difference. Lexus needed to do exactly what Jack said and start from scratch. If you look at the button and layout they are the same as other Lex in this model year and in the past. With the S you cannot say, ohh that console we took it from the last model year, blah blah blah. You wanna know why? Because MB decided to completely redesign and update their car, which is what I thought Lex was going to do. Why do a complete redesign and only do it half A$$ed. Not having driven the LS I don't know what it is like on the road and the price does give it a little of an advantage. I guess we will have to wait and see and in maybe 6 months determine if this new car will stand up (or park itself) amongst the criticism.


P.S. The white SL is gorgeous, I don't see them very often but I would get one if I could (same goes for a black w221 )

 

Blazing I agree, the car looks great in person and to me it doesnt resemble a S class or a 7series. Btw you car looks great, I was thinking of getting a SL in white to. Carfan your missing the poin that the whole car is from scratch. The interior on the LS cant be beat in looks and quality. If you drive one make sure it has the touring package because the handling will be pretty damn good.

 

I must not be conveying what I am thinking very well, but I realize it is from scratch. Being from scratch however I just thought the inside would be completely new and different for a Lex. I do have to give the car its justice and testdrive it. I do think it does look a lot better than past LS cars and the one I saw in person was in black and it looked great.

 

Thanks for the compliments guys, really appreciate it ...

I forgot to mention in the earlier post that I couldn't test drive the LS460 because the last two they had, had been sold just that day and were in the service area (which is where they took me to look at car ) they had a white and a greyish green color called ...honestly the white did nothing for me at least on this car...but that greyish green color looked great but for me if I do get one, it'll be in black just like my current LS ....but back on topic, they said they already had 10 orders on their incoming inventory....so basically these cars are selling fast...my only complaint is not having AWD in the 460 but only the 600h, thats the only thing that would push to a S550 4-matic which would be around 100k and if I were spending 100k I could just get the 600h...regardless i still want one haha

 

Again the L version response...I think the thread is over. Continue to buy your Lexus and enjoy it. As I indicated I have been driving MB for over 30 years now and don't have any desire or intention of driving a hyped up Toyota because it costs less money or is " the perfect car" in your eyes. You can type pages of rationale and explanations and even debate my S version responses word for word, but what I read really doesn't change anything. I will drive my S550 and know what I am driving and why...you can do the same with your LS...only when you pull up next to an S Class you will know in your heart that the S is really the thoroughbred.

 

[QUOTE=carsinamerica;1813650]

Appealing to the "gimmick" thing is bit disingenuous, since so many people here and at MBUSA are harping on about all the new features on the W221, from the Distronic Plus with brake intervention (pioneered by Acura, by the way) to the night-vision system. ALL luxury cars are becoming about gimmicks. It's just part of the game to woo buyers. Because of course when M-B went from 5 speeds to 7 in their transmissions, it wasn't just to one-up BMW, right? [QUOTE]

Are you kidding me? Mercedes was the first with Distronic, which did brake itself way back in what the late 90's? Mercedes took it a step further and made the car stop completely, which IMO is a major improvement over the 1st generation of Distronic. The Acura still doesnt work as well as MBZ's version of Distronic, and I have driven my brothers RL extensively.

Please, Mercedes had been designing the 7G Tronic transmission for quite a while over BMW. BMW has outsourced its transmissions from GM in the past and if I am correct the 6speed transmission in the 7 series was developed with GM once again. Mercedes built the 7G in house, and has proven itself to be one hell of a transmission.

Not all cars are gimicks, NightAssist is a major breakthrough for night vision in cars and is quite safety feature that comes in when your headlights just dont reach far enough.

What has lexus invented?

 

Ummmm......hmmm.........well, let's see...........Oh, wait!......Ummm......I don't know......

 

My apologies, what I was actually thinking of was that Acura's CMBS brakes the car whether or not cruise control is activated, if I recall correctly. That's brand-new. You're right about the Distronic being older.

The six-speed slushbox in the new-line BMWs is by ZF, not GM. And I have no problem outsourcing trannies to experts, and ZF is one of the best. Although, I have to admit, the two-speed reverse system on the 7G is really clever.

As for the night assist, of course it's useful. Cadillac did it first in 2000, then LEXUS, then M-B, now BMW. My point to NevadaJack was that loading up on tech features is part of what makes luxury cars luxurious (at the time they're introduced; a point Jeremy Clarkson made very well in a review of an '03 S600). It's just a part of the market, and you can't get mad at Lexus for playing the game just like everybody else; you can't hype the 7G transmission and the night vision system on the S-Class, and then dismiss similar innovations like the Lexus-built 8-speed slushbox in the LS as "gimmicks".

What has Lexus/Toyota invented? The modern production gas-electric hybrid vehicle, for one thing. Toyota did it, then Lexus became the first maker of hybrid luxury vehicles, first with the RX and then with the GS. The first production-car 8-speed manumatic gearbox, of course. I believe they're the first to deploy a driver-monitoring system, which is nice, and the LS is also the first US-market call with auto-parallel-parking, and the first US-market car with a lane-holding feature (although not the first with a LDW), and the first car with rear knee airbags. It's a good start, considering that Lexus is just 17. I won't do the slap thing, don't worry.

NevadaJack, now you know how my poli-sci professor felt when I handed him a paper that was about 10 pages too long. I told him you couldn't possibly cover the topic in any less, so he'd best read the whole thing and like it. I'm glad we've found peace at last. But, I just have to say, in regard to the thoroughbred thing.... No, I'll know in my heart that it's a stud horse. The 7-Series or a Quattroporte is a thoroughbred. Just playing with ya. I do like the S-Class, even though it wouldn't be my first choice in its class. I just wish we could get the turbodiesels, the SWB S63 model, and the granite trim option here in the States. THAT would get my attention.

 

Hmm lexus attempts to park itself - NOT - VIDEO

http://blogs.automobilemag.com/10024...eo-/index.html

Scroll to the bottom and you will see a video. Needless to say my experience was very much the same. It only works in perfect conditions.

 

I agree Carfan, i saw it in black and i was amazed. Best Lexus design along with the GS to date.

 

The front is eh, rear is hot.

The LS certainly has prescene. Not as much as the W140 though.
The ES looks like a Camry.

The LS in person doesn't look like an Avalon. Sorry MB Fanatic

I'm stillllll waiting for the LS600, and see what differences slight body changes will make.

 

I don't care what they're sold as in Japan. You've been drinking the Lexus koolaid it seems. Lexus dealers in Japan have ordered 12K LS460s but that doesn't mean they've been "sold" in the real world yet. Audi said the same thing about the Q7 here and it hasn't sold well at all. In short dealers ordering a bunch of cars doesn't always mean the car is going to be hot.

I said the LS and the Camry look alike, not the ES and Camry. Yes the ES is just a Camry in better clothing despite them not looking identical anymore.

I don't need to go back to a Lexus dealer to know the LS460 aren't the lookers the S-Class or A8 are. It is big and slab sided and in LS460 SWB form downright goofy looking.

M

 

Looks like something you'd put on a Civic, but it does give the car something extra it doesn't have in stock from. An AMG S550 though would stomp it throughly in looks department.


The S-Class doesn't always rank low in a comparo, one member of the S-Class has vs. the LS during the last few years, the S430. You say you've never seen a comparo in which the LS lost to an S-Class? You need to find the issue in which MT compared the LS430 to the S500. Guess who won? The S500. This was when the LS430 first came out so I'd say it was a late 2000 or early 2001 issue. I'll find it if you don't believe me.

M

 

This is true as far as manuals go. The next C63, SLK63 should have a manual, but the E and above most buyers simply don't want to row their own gears. Yes some AMG models are more talented around a track than others, but they've all become more rounded in just the last year or so it seems. One of the German magazines that worship BMWs got a SL55 around a track faster than a M6 - unheard of.

I agree with you about the Quattroporte as far as performance goes, but that car while gorgeous and stunning to behold won't cut it as a luxury car like AMG Benz will. It needs a smoother automatic mode or a true automatic. I agree though compared to say a S63 AMG the Maser is a much more exciting car, it is afterall a 4-door Ferrari in everything but name.

M

 

Ok, a more level post. Yes the new car does look a lot better than the previous car, but that really isn't saying much compared to what that LS430 thing looked like.

M

 

Seriously. In some angles it's hot, in others oh god it's not.

I remember I think someone posted pics of the 04+ LS (which was supposed to get a small refresh) and I mistook it for the non-refresh one. Sad thing I felt stupid after that.

 

Yeah different tastes for sure. When I see an old Lexus I see a better Toyota and only recently did they get their own look. The old GS was a step out of the traditional blandness Lexus known for I guess. Older LS and ES cars are some of the most forgettable designs on the road. The W140 S-Class is still a commanding presence on the road while the LS430 is the ultimate knock off. Old Acuras and Infinitis? Rubbish when it comes to looks. Acuras are nothing more than nice Hondas even in 2007. Infiniti is their own man now for sure, my favorite of the Japanese 3.

M

 

I agree. That commercial in which it parks itself makes it looks awesome at the end when they show the whole car in Black. Then I drive past the dealer and see one and it looks ill proportioned. One thing is for sure though, the LS460L looks way better than the LS460. The SWB car is just plain goofy looking.

M

 

Thanks for the great video. Lexus' marketing department certainly did their job right even if the engineers couldn't get it to work well. Everyone I know has seen one of the damn TV ads and you know most of the people that see that ad will never take the time to actually find out if it works!

 

Don't feel stupid...honestly I don't even know why Toyota/Lexus bother with refreshes, you can barely ever tell the difference. In '05, they facelifted the Camry with probably one of the boldest mid-cycle facelifts Toyota has ever done! The change? They switched around the red and white parts of the rear light assemblies, and tweaked the grille oh-so-slightly. They really are the most subtle facelifts. I think they only bother so they can say "the brand-new 2005 Camry". Then again, that's what all facelifts are for. Maybe the engineers just get bored between redesigns. At least when Audi does a refresh, you can tell. You have to rub your eyes to try to work the visual out of your head, but at least you can tell.

Yeah, I miss the old "wicked Lexus" GS. I don't care that it was baroque, or too close in appearance to the E-Class. I know the new GS is probably better, but still. The new one is sharper, more angular, but I do like the old one, hatchback look and all.

Yeah, definitely needs some work, and probably the journalists need some more time with the manual -- let's face it, you've got to read them these days to figure out all the Comands and iDrives and such nonsense anyway. C/D got it to work in about 35 seconds if I recall, and that's a lot slower than I can do it myself, but I love parallel parking. But, it does remind me of the Distronic Plus test M-B did where the car ploughed straight into another car instead of stopping; that was on Top Gear. Can't remember the explanation, but it was VERY funny. "Zer you go, it stopped," said the Hamster. Priceless.

And I do just have to give a shout-out to Lexus on their marketing. Infiniti shows trees and ponds and such B-S, but Lexus did the champagne glass pyramid, which everyone remembers, and they wrote a couple awesome poems when the GS came out. Sorry if I sound geeky here, but I love poetry anyway, and this was funny and fantastic at the same time, and I still remember it. These were to celebrate the "wicked Lexus motif" and date to 1998, running in car mags with storm clouds in the background. Lexus, the car of English majors and wanna-be English majors. lol. I love it when car companies can tell a serious point and still have a sense of humor, which is why BMW-MINI marketing is so priceless.

Distant thunder, cold as stone,
a V8 screams down from its throne,
one by one each car succumbs,
as Something Wicked This Way Comes


And the second:

Trembling gravel turns askance,
Where'er its glittering valves doth dance,
and pliant pavement quickly numbs,
Something Wicked This Way Comes.

Anybody know of any others? I think marketing has played a key role in Lexus's growth, precisely because it had to overcome the interia of being seen as just another Japanese car. Even though the cars aren't generally exciting, and so they don't typically do the M-B C-Class racing on a bridge thing, the marketing defines very precisely what the cars are about.

I still doubt I'd ever use the parallel parking assist, though, but then again, I don't drive such a large vehicle. I'd probably also want to turn off the lane-keeping thingamajiggy. I do wonder if their variable-ratio steering compares well to active steer. I would think M-B would go that route very soon; I'm surprised they didn't on the new S.

 

First of all let me state that i am an M-B guy. I have a '97 E320 that I picked up at the factory and have thoroughly enjoyed. I have a whole shelf of great M-B books in my study and tons of M-B brochures, etc. that I enjoy. But the car has been problematical and that has caused me to be open-minded about its replacement/upgrade along with the fact that I don't think M-B builds 'em as good as they used to. The S 550 does not have the quality in it that my E320 does. It has more gadgets and might be more satisfying to drive but the materials quality suffers by comparison, IMHO.

So today, with time on my hands I went to a dealership complex that sells both M-B and Lexus. I wanted to look over the new LS. Fortunately, there was a transporter there off-loading several new Lexus cars. I like to see how a car is put together from below. I was able to stand there, look up and compare LS460L, ES350 and GS AWD. Let me say to those who think LS is just a bigger ES or Camry, they should seek the same view. The LS is definitely cut from different and higher quality cloth.

Now to compare LS with S class. it is my opinion that the LS, in standard trim, gives away nothing to S550 in standard dress. The leather, wood and plastics are of very high quality. Likewise with overall fit and finish.

As to visual effect, I like the LS460 better than the LS460L.
I realize the the most direct comparison would be S550 to the LS460L. Comparing to S 550, especially from front and rear 3/4 view, says to me that LS460 has more "gravitas". That's just the way I see it.

I have not driven either car but that will come. I think M-B better hustle up a SWB S450 for the US market or they are going to loose a lot of business. Of course test dives would play a major part in the decision but the Lexus has to tried.

 

carsinamerica - you attributed a quote falsely to me

Infiniti's designs are different which = hot.
Germancar1 - the new ad is a throwback to the first ad where they had a LS400 on the dyno with a bunch of glasses on the hood and the car sped up to 140mph or something crazy like that

Infiniti has a lot of ads by Method Studios, google for Method Studios and watch their ads -- absolutley beautiful commercials.

Lexus has had their ups and downs with marketing. It seems like if they aren't pushing something 'revolutionary' like the LS400 (first gen) or the LS460 (fourth gen) the ads just suck. The 'scary' GS ad from a while ago (I think GS) sucked *****. The new GX LX RX ad they have now sucks. Eh.

The rain on the SC430 was nice, where the roof opened after the sun came out, but it became old after a while.

I hope Mercedes does not bring a S450. That's not cool. Yes, I am selfish.