LS460l Test Drive
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Refer to carsinamerica article:
Your poli-sci prof knew what he was talking about...:-)))
I can't believe I read the whole thing...to paraphrase a commercial you may not remember. Good essay again...
BTW sonny boy..."Unless you're 70 years old and have one foot in the grave and..." This 75 year old wonder would prefer you used some other analogy in future diatribes...:-)
Your poli-sci prof knew what he was talking about...:-)))
I can't believe I read the whole thing...to paraphrase a commercial you may not remember. Good essay again...
BTW sonny boy..."Unless you're 70 years old and have one foot in the grave and..." This 75 year old wonder would prefer you used some other analogy in future diatribes...:-)
Last edited by Nevada Jack; Oct 30, 2006 at 11:55 PM.
Thread Starter
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Have manufacturers said how much these batteries in Hybrids might cost when they start to die?
I have to admit that the Toyota/Lexus Hybrid system is overly complicated for no reason when compared to Honda's system and has no real advatages.
I have to admit that the Toyota/Lexus Hybrid system is overly complicated for no reason when compared to Honda's system and has no real advatages.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Atlanta, GA
Lexus GS 450h
There is no hybrid competiton for the Lexus RX 400h or GS 450h.
How can you say Toyota's system has no advantages when it is THE STANDARD?
When companies go to outsource hybrid tech, who do they call? They call Toyota.
Toyota more than anything invented the system ELIMINATING the need to "plug" in your electric car when they figured out how to use the energy from braking to re-charge the batteries.
That was genius.
I give kudos to Honda for having hybrid tech available and continuing to experiment and implement it. They are behind Toyota.
It is VERY clear, you just have a natural hate for Toyota or anything they produce, which includes Lexus as your posts have no data or facts to back them up, They are just the usual Hulk posts
1. BAH Lexus is Toyota
2. HULK SMASH LEXUS, no real luxury
3. etc etc...
Thread Starter
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I am talking about technical advantages and implementation. The Honda system is very simple and not nearly as complicated as Toyota/Lexus. Honda simply sandwhiches a electric motor between the engine and transmission.
I do not have a hate for Toyota. If anything they have great reliable vehicles, at a very reasonable cost that the masses can afford. Cars like the Corolla, Camry, Tundra etc have redefined what they stand for. I am happy to see Toyota kicking some GM and Ford ***. However, from a innovation standpoint Honda had the 1st hybrid on the market.
The prius while a great vehicle, is overrated on its estimated mileage, and many people realize this after the fact they buy the car. Did I mention it looks ugly? If there is a single Toyota I would buy it might be the Avalon, since its dirt cheap for all the features it has. If I needed a truck, the new Tundra would be right there.
The idea of a perforamance hybrid is quite ill. Its a lame excuse for not having a real performance car. All the tree hugging environmentalists are jumping on the hybrid wagon. Have they analyzed the impacts these heavy metal batteries have when disposed?
The Camry hybrid gets nearly the same real world mileage as a regular 4 cylinder Accord EX. Have you read the C&D review of the Accord vs. Camry? Accord though 4 years old, still won. The Camry has come a long way from that boat of a previous generation.
I do not have a hate for Toyota. If anything they have great reliable vehicles, at a very reasonable cost that the masses can afford. Cars like the Corolla, Camry, Tundra etc have redefined what they stand for. I am happy to see Toyota kicking some GM and Ford ***. However, from a innovation standpoint Honda had the 1st hybrid on the market.
The prius while a great vehicle, is overrated on its estimated mileage, and many people realize this after the fact they buy the car. Did I mention it looks ugly? If there is a single Toyota I would buy it might be the Avalon, since its dirt cheap for all the features it has. If I needed a truck, the new Tundra would be right there.
The idea of a perforamance hybrid is quite ill. Its a lame excuse for not having a real performance car. All the tree hugging environmentalists are jumping on the hybrid wagon. Have they analyzed the impacts these heavy metal batteries have when disposed?
The Camry hybrid gets nearly the same real world mileage as a regular 4 cylinder Accord EX. Have you read the C&D review of the Accord vs. Camry? Accord though 4 years old, still won. The Camry has come a long way from that boat of a previous generation.
Out Of Control!!
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I can't imagine what "personal issues" keep you from caring about the environment.
I don't know about you guys, but I don't think I'm the only one that feels that way. It just isn't that big of a role especially with these cars becoming SULEV or whatever.
Isn't GM and BMW working on a hybrid solution while BMW is working on getting some hydrogen car out?
Hey -- in the end what matters to me are the final numbers. I don't care how you're making the power (hybrid, supercharged, turboed, naturally aspirated, 10 slaves in the engine bay) as long as I'm making power and I'm causing a fight
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From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
First of all let me state that i am an M-B guy. I have a '97 E320 that I picked up at the factory and have thoroughly enjoyed. I have a whole shelf of great M-B books in my study and tons of M-B brochures, etc. that I enjoy. But the car has been problematical and that has caused me to be open-minded about its replacement/upgrade along with the fact that I don't think M-B builds 'em as good as they used to. The S 550 does not have the quality in it that my E320 does. It has more gadgets and might be more satisfying to drive but the materials quality suffers by comparison, IMHO.
So today, with time on my hands I went to a dealership complex that sells both M-B and Lexus. I wanted to look over the new LS. Fortunately, there was a transporter there off-loading several new Lexus cars. I like to see how a car is put together from below. I was able to stand there, look up and compare LS460L, ES350 and GS AWD. Let me say to those who think LS is just a bigger ES or Camry, they should seek the same view. The LS is definitely cut from different and higher quality cloth.
Now to compare LS with S class. it is my opinion that the LS, in standard trim, gives away nothing to S550 in standard dress. The leather, wood and plastics are of very high quality. Likewise with overall fit and finish.
As to visual effect, I like the LS460 better than the LS460L.
I realize the the most direct comparison would be S550 to the LS460L. Comparing to S 550, especially from front and rear 3/4 view, says to me that LS460 has more "gravitas". That's just the way I see it.
I have not driven either car but that will come. I think M-B better hustle up a SWB S450 for the US market or they are going to loose a lot of business. Of course test dives would play a major part in the decision but the Lexus has to tried.
So today, with time on my hands I went to a dealership complex that sells both M-B and Lexus. I wanted to look over the new LS. Fortunately, there was a transporter there off-loading several new Lexus cars. I like to see how a car is put together from below. I was able to stand there, look up and compare LS460L, ES350 and GS AWD. Let me say to those who think LS is just a bigger ES or Camry, they should seek the same view. The LS is definitely cut from different and higher quality cloth.
Now to compare LS with S class. it is my opinion that the LS, in standard trim, gives away nothing to S550 in standard dress. The leather, wood and plastics are of very high quality. Likewise with overall fit and finish.
As to visual effect, I like the LS460 better than the LS460L.
I realize the the most direct comparison would be S550 to the LS460L. Comparing to S 550, especially from front and rear 3/4 view, says to me that LS460 has more "gravitas". That's just the way I see it.
I have not driven either car but that will come. I think M-B better hustle up a SWB S450 for the US market or they are going to loose a lot of business. Of course test dives would play a major part in the decision but the Lexus has to tried.
I'm scratching my head on this one. There is no possible way on earth the new S-Class doesn't match or exceed by leaps and bounds the material quality of the W210 E-Class. That is nuts!!!!
Why would Mercedes need to introduced a SWB S450? They'll never cheap out and price their flagship car at 60K anything to compete with the SWB LS460. Lexus Lexus have that market. The LWB S450 will come for 2008 and it will be priced very competitively with the LS460L. Mercedes was waiting to see where the new LS would be priced and now they'll see how it sells and what options are typcially ordered before they price the S450. There is no need for SWB S-Class until 2012-13 when the W221 is on its last legs.
M
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From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
IMO I don't think that the S should be offered in SWB, or the LS for that matter. I feel that the flagship sedans should all be LWB and I know there will be a lot of disagreement about this because people love their right to choose (and buy a less expensive car). When I think of an S/7series/LS I think big, long, and luxurious. I think that there are many people who agree too though, because when I drive around town most 7 series cars I see are the 'L' variant. I can not even come up with a reason to get a SWB car besides the price. I think that a LWB looks better, rides better, and exudes luxury...
The sales of the 750Li compare the 750i prove what you're saying is correct. BMW just dropped the 760i. Who would buy a SWB sedan with a V12? These aren't sports sedans and this aint Europe.
I don't see how price could be an issue once you start looking at a A8/S/7 anyway, the LWB models are usually only 4-5K more. If someone can't afford that much more then they're looking at the wrong car IMO.
M
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From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
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From: Atlanta, GA
Lexus GS 450h
That is exactly it. The only reason the Germans built SWB is because or narrow and crowed European cities/roads.
The sales of the 750Li compare the 750i prove what you're saying is correct. BMW just dropped the 760i. Who would buy a SWB sedan with a V12? These aren't sports sedans and this aint Europe.
I don't see how price could be an issue once you start looking at a A8/S/7 anyway, the LWB models are usually only 4-5K more. If someone can't afford that much more then they're looking at the wrong car IMO.
M
The sales of the 750Li compare the 750i prove what you're saying is correct. BMW just dropped the 760i. Who would buy a SWB sedan with a V12? These aren't sports sedans and this aint Europe.
I don't see how price could be an issue once you start looking at a A8/S/7 anyway, the LWB models are usually only 4-5K more. If someone can't afford that much more then they're looking at the wrong car IMO.
M
4500-5000lbs cars are not sports sedans. They are BEASTS!
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From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
M
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,846
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From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
I know your pretty biased against Lexus but did you read ANYTHING I said.
1. Yes the trunk is small. This is the WORLDS FIRST LUXURY RWD Hyrbid. There will be drawbacks.
2. The car weighs 100lbs more than the V-8 competiiton. 100lbs is not even a small child. So to have all those batteries, that is not bad. It is 400lbs MORE than the GS 430 (which is near lightest in class)
3, Gas mileage is at LEAST 20% better than the competition. No, it is not some incredible 100 MPG car but considering you get 340hp and 20% better fuel economy, that is pretty good.
4. VRAA is right, I just don't see the LS 600L h being faster in a straight line as a V-12 TT. I just can't see that. It will be more fuel efficient and passing power will be on par or better than the S 600.
I cannot even figure out how anyone can bash or downplay any of the cars we are talking about. They are all just fabulous and dream cars to most people.
1. Yes the trunk is small. This is the WORLDS FIRST LUXURY RWD Hyrbid. There will be drawbacks.
2. The car weighs 100lbs more than the V-8 competiiton. 100lbs is not even a small child. So to have all those batteries, that is not bad. It is 400lbs MORE than the GS 430 (which is near lightest in class)
3, Gas mileage is at LEAST 20% better than the competition. No, it is not some incredible 100 MPG car but considering you get 340hp and 20% better fuel economy, that is pretty good.
4. VRAA is right, I just don't see the LS 600L h being faster in a straight line as a V-12 TT. I just can't see that. It will be more fuel efficient and passing power will be on par or better than the S 600.
I cannot even figure out how anyone can bash or downplay any of the cars we are talking about. They are all just fabulous and dream cars to most people.
2-3 MPG gallon more than E550 or 550i just doesn't cut it and the E550 is faster still. Nothing can touch a manual 550i in the class either.
M
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Oh the SWB LS460 will be their leading sellerr for several reasons. One is price. It is priced like the old LS430 and that is where Leuxs has the most acceptance. The LS460L can get up to MB numbers if you aren't careful and at that point I think Lexus is going to loose a few sales and/or buyers will opt for a slightly less loaded LS460L. Either way you watch and see the LS460 will outsell the LS460L easily.
M
M
Lexus has a problem -- they only sell what they have in the region. They are picky about that.
You have to fight to get the cars in other regions or specially how you want it in your driveway.
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From: Dallas TX
2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
I based my assumption on the fact that I assumed (damn that's a lot) that the dealers wouldn't order many.
Lexus has a problem -- they only sell what they have in the region. They are picky about that.
You have to fight to get the cars in other regions or specially how you want it in your driveway.
Lexus has a problem -- they only sell what they have in the region. They are picky about that.
You have to fight to get the cars in other regions or specially how you want it in your driveway.
M
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Refer to carsinamerica article:
Your poli-sci prof knew what he was talking about...:-)))
I can't believe I read the whole thing...to paraphrase a commercial you may not remember. Good essay again...
BTW sonny boy..."Unless you're 70 years old and have one foot in the grave and..." This 75 year old wonder would prefer you used some other analogy in future diatribes...:-)
Your poli-sci prof knew what he was talking about...:-)))
I can't believe I read the whole thing...to paraphrase a commercial you may not remember. Good essay again...
BTW sonny boy..."Unless you're 70 years old and have one foot in the grave and..." This 75 year old wonder would prefer you used some other analogy in future diatribes...:-)
Sorry for that, "old man". My grandpa's 90 and still going strong. I should have said "very old AND..." so that people would know both conditions apply, eh? I didn't mean to imply...oh sod it, I know you're not mad. I'll try to be less age-ist in the future, though. BTW, I got the highest score in the class on the paper, which just goes to show that verbosity is sometimes the best defense/offense. Not bad for a capstone class. But that is very
I'll leave vraa and his slaves-in-the-engine-bay comments alone; anarchists (a good label for people who want to overthrow the government because of gas-guzzler taxes) are usually a CONTENTS-UNDER-PRESSURE bunch anyway
And does anybody know why that tag says rolf instead of rofl? I just wonder about things like that.
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From: New Jersey
E550 4MATIC
Carsinamerica makes an important point about the environment. It is one thing for our parents generation to not have had the same concerns because this issue has only been publicized in the media in more recent years. It is disappointing to see other people in my age group (vraa) that have no concern for the environment and only their own driving pleasure. I would like a balance of both if that is at all possible and I don't think that hybrids, diesels or E85 are the answers. Again I guess we will wait and see the next major revolution in the auto industry.
As far as the SWB/LWB argument goes, I still disagree. I would still take a SWB S-Class for my own personal needs simply because of its smaller size making it easier to drive and park. But then again I live in northern NJ which has some of the worst drivers in the country and is the most densly populated state, so space is at a premium.
Btw, I realize that no one would call the Maybach short, but when Mercedes-Benz did their market research before the launch of this uber-luxury sedan they found that the 57 would sell very well in the US because affluent Americas prefer to drive themselves. They decided that the 62 would be bought more in Europe however, because weathly Europeans prefer to be chauffer driven. And lets not forget the 57S, you don't see any 62S version because of its size. In essence, the 57 is the SWB version of the Maybach (and yes I know its even longer than an S-Class) but this still shows the usefulness of a SWB luxury sedan.
As far as the SWB/LWB argument goes, I still disagree. I would still take a SWB S-Class for my own personal needs simply because of its smaller size making it easier to drive and park. But then again I live in northern NJ which has some of the worst drivers in the country and is the most densly populated state, so space is at a premium.
Btw, I realize that no one would call the Maybach short, but when Mercedes-Benz did their market research before the launch of this uber-luxury sedan they found that the 57 would sell very well in the US because affluent Americas prefer to drive themselves. They decided that the 62 would be bought more in Europe however, because weathly Europeans prefer to be chauffer driven. And lets not forget the 57S, you don't see any 62S version because of its size. In essence, the 57 is the SWB version of the Maybach (and yes I know its even longer than an S-Class) but this still shows the usefulness of a SWB luxury sedan.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Las Vegas, NV
2011 E350 Cabriolet..White and Almond Mocha
Carsinamerica makes an important point about the environment. It is one thing for our parents generation to not have had the same concerns because this issue has only been publicized in the media in more recent years. It is disappointing to see other people in my age group (vraa) that have no concern for the environment and only their own driving pleasure. I would like a balance of both if that is at all possible and I don't think that hybrids, diesels or E85 are the answers. Again I guess we will wait and see the next major revolution in the auto industry.
As far as the SWB/LWB argument goes, I still disagree. I would still take a SWB S-Class for my own personal needs simply because of its smaller size making it easier to drive and park. But then again I live in northern NJ which has some of the worst drivers in the country and is the most densly populated state, so space is at a premium.
Btw, I realize that no one would call the Maybach short, but when Mercedes-Benz did their market research before the launch of this uber-luxury sedan they found that the 57 would sell very well in the US because affluent Americas prefer to drive themselves. They decided that the 62 would be bought more in Europe however, because weathly Europeans prefer to be chauffer driven. And lets not forget the 57S, you don't see any 62S version because of its size. In essence, the 57 is the SWB version of the Maybach (and yes I know its even longer than an S-Class) but this still shows the usefulness of a SWB luxury sedan.
As far as the SWB/LWB argument goes, I still disagree. I would still take a SWB S-Class for my own personal needs simply because of its smaller size making it easier to drive and park. But then again I live in northern NJ which has some of the worst drivers in the country and is the most densly populated state, so space is at a premium.
Btw, I realize that no one would call the Maybach short, but when Mercedes-Benz did their market research before the launch of this uber-luxury sedan they found that the 57 would sell very well in the US because affluent Americas prefer to drive themselves. They decided that the 62 would be bought more in Europe however, because weathly Europeans prefer to be chauffer driven. And lets not forget the 57S, you don't see any 62S version because of its size. In essence, the 57 is the SWB version of the Maybach (and yes I know its even longer than an S-Class) but this still shows the usefulness of a SWB luxury sedan.
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But then, I'd still like to see Maybach provoke BMW enough to make a BMW-badged 9-Series in the 53/CFS range, maybe with a biturbo-twelve while pushing R-R upmarket on its cheap sedan into the Arnage price range.
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Gotcha on the smiley thing. Maybe rolf stands for raucous, outlandish, laughing freak. Or maybe not.
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1997 E320 (silver/black)
M-B Quality '97 E320 vs S550
I still stand by my comments re material quality. I have owned one and looked over the new one carefully. I have slammed my doors and then walked right over to the S550 and done the same. E320 wins. I have looked at the quality of the plastics under the hood of both cars and the E320 wins. I have rapped the side door panels of both with my knuckles and the E320 wins. Look at the quality of the door sill plates in both. E 320 is much better. I think the leather is tougher and more durable in the E320 although not softer. Upgraded S550 leather is better but not the standard grade, IMHO. I will concede that the S550 material quality is better than the previous generation but how many feel that it is better than the generation before that?
As to the SWB model, they need it to fill the gap between a $70K loaded E550 and a well-equipped $100K S550. Both of the new Lexus 460 non-hybrid cars are in that gap and they will be hurt by that fact.
As to the SWB model, they need it to fill the gap between a $70K loaded E550 and a well-equipped $100K S550. Both of the new Lexus 460 non-hybrid cars are in that gap and they will be hurt by that fact.
Thread Starter
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From: South Orange County, CA
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If you ask me, I think the S550 surpasses the W140 and the W220 in materials, fit and finish, NVH, and build quality.
I also dont think MBZ will be hurt by not filling in the gap between a E550 and S550. It has never hurt them in the past, and I dont expect it to happen this time as well. However, it is expected that MBZ will release a S450 in late 2007 as a 2008 model. As to the price point, it is yet to be determined by MBUSA or the public for that matter.
I am pretty sure that your E320 has MB Tex.
I also dont think MBZ will be hurt by not filling in the gap between a E550 and S550. It has never hurt them in the past, and I dont expect it to happen this time as well. However, it is expected that MBZ will release a S450 in late 2007 as a 2008 model. As to the price point, it is yet to be determined by MBUSA or the public for that matter.
I am pretty sure that your E320 has MB Tex.
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1997 E320 (silver/black)
Mbfanatic....
M-B did not let it hurt them in the past because they built the S430 and later on, the SWB S320.
Leather was what yo got standard on an E320 in 1997. M-BTex is what you get on an E350 as standard today.
Leather was what yo got standard on an E320 in 1997. M-BTex is what you get on an E350 as standard today.
Thread Starter
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From: South Orange County, CA
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The SWB S320 was offered for a few months in an effort to get rid of old W220 SWB bodies that were LHD. It sold because dealers were discounting them heavily just to get rid of them and make room for the W221.
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From: Las Vegas, NV
2011 E350 Cabriolet..White and Almond Mocha
BTW you don't "slam" the door on a W221...they are power sealed doors. How did you determine the "quality" of the plastic under the hood...BTW again...MB won an award for new environmental materials used for production and included most plastic parts, wheel well insulation, etc. Don't you think that from your '97 E320 to the '07 S550 some improvement and techniques have been made in the plastics "under the hood." My '98 E320 was a nice car and the '03 was nicer...but no way were either of them even close to the quality of the new S.
