You'd have to be the only person in the entire world who thinks the W210 is better than the W221 in material quality. Everything you've posted is like the opposite of what it actually is. The W210 was a downgrade from the previous W124 in material quality and build and now you're saying that such a car is better than the comeback Mercedes, the W221? That is nuts!

Mercedes will launch the S450 as a 2008 model next year I'm sure, they know they can't keep the price of entry to the S-Class at 87K. They were just waiting to see where Lexus would price their LS460 models, and now that they see the pricing/options mix, they'll try to make the S450 as competitive as possible. I'm guessing a S450 will start around 75K and go to about 85k with a typical options load or a little bit more, and that would place it right on top of a loaded LS460L. Lexus can have the below 70K SWB LS460 market. Mercedes (for lack of a nicer way to put it) ain't got to stoop to a 61K base price to sell a W221 S-Class, at least not right now.

M

 

German, go to the thread called Door Sills, in the W211 forum. People I tell you.

 

Ok I'll check it out.

M

 

Yeah that is ridiculous. Anyone that says the W221 isn't the best built Mercedes since the R129/W124/W126 or maybe W140 days is just out of touch IMO. There is no way a W210 is built better than a W221.

M

 

Hmm, just some random thoughts of my opinion.

I never count how many Lexus Ls i see..I do count how many S550's i see..
I never imagen myself driving a Lexus, i do imagen myself driving a S550/ 7 series

When i think of a great sedan, a Lexus never crosses my mind but an S class and 7 series does.

If you blind folded me, and told me to feel the car i want...first thing i would do is walk to the front of both vechiles, and feed the badge. I sure as hell will recognize that Star...and i'm pretty sure i'll pick the star over the L.

IMO, if i had the money -- my decision would be between the 7 series and the S class...yeah some of you guys hate the 7 series, i love it. To each their own. Never would a Lexus cross my mind.

 

Isn't the point of blindfolding so you can feel the fit and finish and then decid which one you ilke by NOT knowing the brand (sok I would do the same thing, you have to pick the star over the L). I don't own a s550 or a '97 eclass but i have been in and driven both. There is no comparison, not even close. I do like the look of the e and the inside but it is foolish to say there are nicer plastics and materials in the e, just my opinion

 

When talking about the Quality of the materials in the W210 cars, I think it is important to distinguish between the '96 - '99 cars and the '00 - '02 cars. There was a lot of quality taken out of the cars beginning in 2000. I read that there were more than 1500 changes made but not many are apparent to the inexperienced observer. Most of those had to do with cost cutting, i.e., using less expensive materials and the modular engines.

It will be interesting to see if the next E cars are brought back up to the pre-2000 material quality level. I will bet that the new LS460 SWB is giving the guys in Stuttgardt heartburn over what to do next. I'd counter with a S450 SWB/AWD combination with the full options list available and not so many restrictive options packages.

 

I know they changed some things from 1999 to 2000, but there is nothing about either version of the W210 that is superior to the W221. The current E-Class is better than the W210 either, especially after the 07' facelift.

Mercedes ain't sweating the SWB LS460 because at 61K base price they can't, won't and aren't going to be able to price a S-Class that low to compete with it. What they will do is make the S450 as competitive with a loaded SWB LS460 and a midly loaded LS460L, that is why they waited to introduced the S450.

M

 

Agreed, they couldn't put a S car at the entry price of the LS. I was at the dealerhip again, couldn't drive the car bc it was in the middle of the showroom and to get it out is impossible (they have a poorly designed showroom). It was the first time I saw the LS L, it was nice looking but when I sat in it I didn't get a rush of excitement like I do when I sit in a S class. I did like that they maintained the shifter in the center (on the floor if you will), but besides that I wasn't a fan. I am not saying it didn't look nice, because it did, it was beautiful, but it isn't want I would want in a sedan. Plus, I am a fan of the driving experience, I don't want the 'float on a cloud' effect, and I take pride in my ability to parallel park! The sticker was 80K and it was a ruby read color.

 

Agreed. Also, the new E facelift is getting raves in what they have done to make this car totally competitive.

People who think they are going to get a SWB S for $60K are dreaming. If we see the SWB I still think it will be in the mid years of the cycle and maybe have a BLUTEC CDI in it, but again, they will be hurting the E Class, not the LS Class

 

The quality, fit & finish of the W221 is light years ahead of the W210.

 

Well I finally had time to test drive the LS460. I went yesterday after work and drove the SWB version--this was the demo they were using. The car was some kind of graphite grey with black interior. It was certainly attractive, just not terribly groundbreaking or striking. Fit and finish was of course excellent and the materials used seemed to be very high quality. Things that I really liked about the car is that they retained the use of a traditional shift knob. I love the W221, but my main complaint is the lack of shift knob. I know that it was moved because of the COMAND controller, but I think the engineers could have fit both in if they had gone back to the drawing board. (BMW and Audi are able to fit both.) I was also looking on the website and they have many more wood selections than Mercedes. I dont like that they pair a specific one with each (you don't get a choice) but at least they tried. The voice control worked very well as did the navigation system. Another thing that stood out was the pneumatic door closing, I think it worked better than in the Mercedes. I have noticed that in the S-Class if you just latch the door slightly it won't work, it needs to be at a certain point, but the Lexus (and the Audi A8) both work no matter how the door is closed. The drive was comfortable and there was ample acceleration, I agree that the brake pedal was a little too soft for my taste, but I'm sure it would take getting used to. I don't really understand the hold feature of the parking brake, it is supposed to hold you if you stop the car so that you don't keep your foot on the brake if you are stuck in traffic. Maybe its a good idea, but I could do without the button on the steering wheel. I asked the salesman and he said that mostly SWB have been ordered and they anticipate selling most of those.

So, my conclusion is that Lexus has built a great car. The design is certainly a major improvement for them, but nothing stunning and bold like the S-Class. Also the interior doesn't seem all that much different from the other Lexus models, nothing to make it stand out. All in all a good car, but does it beat a Mercedes-Benz S-Class--no way.

 

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...460/index.html

 

What about S 350s and S 430s? Let us not forget about them....(though I do not think they are sold in America, a V-6 S-class, lol)
http://www.galttech.com/research/car...class-s500.php
The S Class family includes: the Mercedes S350, which features a 3.7L V-6 engine, 242HP, and a list price of $65K for the 2006 S350. The S430 sedan has a 4.3L 275HP motor and a $78K sticker price for the 2006 S430. The Mercedes S500, starting at $86K, sports a 5L 302HP motor and a 7 speed automatic transmission.

 

My problem is there is no fire....it may be a fine car and have all the things you like but it does not inspire me one bit.

When I traded my E320 for my first S Class (an '06 S430) I thought I would drive the car for years. When the new S550 was shown I was negative and could not stand the wheel flares. However, I was in for service on my S430 and when leaving the lot I spied the new S550 in the metal. I stopped and went over, looked at it, sat in it and got back in my car. This was in early February when the demos were made available. By the middle of March I was looking for a car and by April 4th I had driven to Denver and picked up my new S550. My S430 had a mere 3800 miles on it and was but 8 months old. I was totally captured by the new S and knew it from the day I sat in it...that demo was fuel for my fire and the fire has only gotten bigger and more intense as I drive this car.

Lexus can robot polish their cars, can design it so you don't know you are driving a car, make what they think is luxury and sell that concept with some snob announcer telling you it is absolute perfection. But this driver and many others who spend this kind of money know what they are getting with the S Class...once you have tasted success you go back for more of the same. You can enjoy the S Class now or you can enjoy it later, but eventually if you are a Lexus driver you will yearn for the day when you pick up your new MB S Class and say...I finally have a true luxury car.

 

Couldn't have said it any better myself

 

Reads like a poem, Jack...Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

Those vehichles you listed above are no longer made, they were from the W220.

MB now makes for the US market all LWB:

S65
S600
S550
S450 (late fall 07)

In Europe you get:

S320CDI
S420CDI
S450
S550
S600
S65
and some other smaller engines. In Europe most models can be had in SWB or LWB.

 

Your information is outdated to say the least. The new S350 has 272hp and the S450 has 340hp, but they aren't sold here.

M

 

Has this been confirmed anywhere?

M

 

just to add on to the above, there's also an W221 S350 and S300 in Asian countries.

The S350 uses the same engine as the one in the CLS350, and the S300 has the same engine as in the E280.

saw my first LS460 in Singapore today. i still don't see myself putting down any money for the LS, but seeing how they've improved their IS and GS quite drastically, maybe the next iteration... Toyota certainly has the financial might (and US sales) to just keep trying.

 

I'd never heard of a S300 before, must have something to do with engine size vs. taxes in Asian countries.

Quote:

but seeing how they've improved their IS and GS quite drastically, maybe the next iteration... Toyota certainly has the financial might (and US sales) to just keep trying.

This is the scary, but good part. This will ensure that Mercedes will never, ever make another car like the first batch of W220s ever, ever again. Luxury car buyers have never had it so good. Mercedes used to be the only game in town at this level for so many years, but not BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus and even VW make a comparable car.

M

 

In this discussion I could not locate my image of the dash screen showing the specs from my cross country trip. I did locate it and as you can see the S550 with the 7 speed tranny is pretty good on gas...better than the EPA figures. 25.8 mpg at an average speed of 63 mph over 5,135 miles ain't half bad...those figures include all stops, traffic and near 100mph outbursts on the interstates.

 

Jack, we hit 28mpg in the S550. Though thats with cruise and speed set around 70ish.

 

On some legs during the trip I got similar figures but this represents the entire 5,135 miles, in all kinds of conditions. For sure it is excellent on the highway in more ways than one...:-)))