Oh, really? Let's see....

F10: 38K nm's of torsional rigidity. W212: 29K nm's of torsional rigidity = F10 30% stiffer than the E Class.

F10: Better universal crash test scores than W212.

F10: High class, soft touch, luxurious interior materials and finish, carpeting in more areas than W212, nice soft headliner. W212: Harsh, hard, cheap, non-luxurious feeling interior materials, plastics everywhere, sandpaper like headliner, comparatively spartan, etc.

F10: Nice widescreen elegantly integrated into dash, high res display with intuitive and comprehensive iDrive. W212: Tiny Casio screen with dated COMAND tech crudely mated onto dashboard (i.e a "hump").

F10: Electronic E Brake, electronic moonroof cover with nice large moonroof glass, electronic controlled in most ways. W212: Analogue old-school "push and hurt your ankle" E-Brake, cheap hand-operated moonroof cover with small moonroof glass (though with an option for Pano to be fair), loud and harsh moonroof mechanical operation, i.e more of an analogue car overall.

F10: Vastly better handler than W212. With M Sport suspension the F10 will stay flat through corners and give you the dynamic ability to go from a comfy straight line cruiser to a worthy Sport blooded, balanced turner.

F10 535i: More powerful with enough torque to spin the rear tires loose (PEAK torque comes in an an astounding 1,200 RPM's), get the car sideways yet with the ability to get over 34 MPG on the highway, ultra buttery smooth and quiet I6 yet with the ability to wail like the E350 V6 can only dream, i.e it acts more like a V8 with a distinctive and exhilarating engine note. W212 E350: Sort of coarse and loud V6 with soft torque (not enough to "burn out" like a 535i can), less power overall, less MPG all around, simply an inferior drivetrain by a good margin. The 535i N55 is proven by dyno and test numbers to be grossly underrated from the factory (especially in torque), while the W212 E350 is clearly not underrated at all.

F10: Even WITH being far sportier than the W212, it is also smoother over rough roads, the W212 is known to have a harsh suspension which transmits impacts into the cabin, loosening up interior materials and leading to premature rattling. The F10 goes over the same roads that upset the W212 like a tank, no rattles, which is what 30% more rigidity and engineering straight from the 7 Series will get you. The W212 is not only harsh over rough roads, but it's very floaty and exaggeratedly roly-poly through turns, which shows M-B engineering one of the worst suspension dynamics in this segment. The F10 M suspension on the other hand is exactly how a Sport/Luxury Sedan suspension should be: Stiff through turns and soft over bumps (MB did it the other way around).

Steering: The latest F10 steering with M Sport suspension is nice and weighted, and actually CHANGES in weighting through its various modes, so you can have it softer, or heavier. The W212 is stuck with its incredibly overboosted steering, light enough to fling the floaty car excessively and with no sporting intentions whatsoever.

F10: More rigid chassis and more isolating, quieter nature derived from being a smaller 7 Series surpasses the rather harsh W212 in overall comfort and serenity.

F10: Vastly superior transmission and a Sport Mode that actually WORKS in changing the cars character into making it far more aggressive than it is in "Comfort", VS the MB "Sport Mode" which is a marketing gimmick, doesn't really do anything. BMW also has "Eco Pro" mode.

F10: Timeless exterior styling which BMW purposefully did not change at all for the facelift to "not mess with perfection". W212: M-B seemingly admitted dated styling that is incapable of surviving through a typical 7 year production run (unfortunately as I love the pre-facelift styling) with "too many gimmicks" apparently according to M-B, completely about-face changed, embarrassingly grafted on new front end and redesigned side panels, chrome thrown all over it to give a vibe of "Poor old guy with reconstructive surgery, dressed up in Ed Hardy".

F10: 75% German parts, 15-20% Chinese parts. W212: 50% German parts, 40-45% Chinese parts.

F10: Mix of further comfort AND sportiness (i.e the fact that it's far more dynamic) give it high speed stability that is far more confident than the W212, as the W212 with its loose/overboosted steering and floaty body when quickly maneuvered make for relative uncertainty. I've almost lost control of the W212 as has my friend who's driven my old one as it isn't good as high speed maneuvers. The F10 on the other hand hunkers down on the highway, has a tighter suspension and "grips" the road better.

F10 M Sport: 19" wheels with RFT's, W212 "Sport": 18" with no RFT's and the F10 M Sport is STILL much smoother (while handling much better).

F10 535i got #1 in a magazine test over the E400 which is positioned HIGHER than the 535i.

F10 is the FIRST 5 Series to ever beat the E Class in woldwide sales. This is ESPECIALLY significant because the F10 singlehandedly did this and it in one swift move *crushed* the W212 generation in worldwide sales. This is CONSIDERING the E Class gets an artificial sales boost by the Coupe/Vert which (which are based on C Classes to boot) showing that the 5 Sedan drastically outsells the E Sedan worldwide even more than the numbers insinuate.

W212 E350 gets discounted at RECORD rates in the States. 20+% discounts are VERY regular and easy to get (I got it on mine) while the F10 at BEST you'll get half of what you'll get on the W212, and even that's hard to do.

F10: Features like HUD and Black Panel Display which the W212 lacks.

F10: Very comfortable seats. W212: "Pretty" comfortable seats.

F10: Better brakes and brake performance over the W212.

---------------

I can go on and on. The above are FACTS mixed with PERSONAL/SUBJECTIVE YET VERY EXPERIENCE BASED opinions. POINT OF THIS POST here being that I haven't been "wrong" here on anything I've claimed or stated.

 

Do not respond to this idiot. Kill this thread. He is not worth our time. Just ask him if his F10 came with a duct tape kit

 

BMW rank 15th in the world in reliability, these cars need duct tapes to keep them from falling apart after just 2 years

 

The problem here is that you simply don't realize that cars are rarely new from the ground up. Using the old chassis and updating it heavily is a common practice by every single automaker on the planet. ALL of them do this. The W221 was a new from the ground up vehicle so yes the W222 is probably based on that, but again no one here can come up with a deficiency because of this relationship. They have gutted the interior, new exterior, new suspension, loads of new technology the W221 could only dream about. Its a non issue in the case of the W222.

Mercedes didn't just change the interior and slap on a new grille like Lexus did with the new LS460 which we can clearly see is the same old car from 2007, even the engine is the same. Mercedes has redesigned everything, and even tweaked the engine. The only old part of the W222 is the 7G gearbox, and that will likely be swapped out next year. Why would you redesign a car from the ground up when it was more than capable as it was? The smarter route is to correct any flaws and expand on that, which is likely what the W222 represents.

So what if they used the bare bones of the old car? What is the problem, where is the W222 deficient because of that? It's all in your head.

M

 

What people are seeing is that you haven't proven anything. Sure you are able to read of a statistic and apply it to your experience. The issue is that before you read those stats you had no clue as to anything deeper with the 5-Series. Nothing. You glossed over the points because you know they cancel out what you're saying here or at least make you or anyone else reading this, question what you're saying.

You can't prove anyone wrong who has a different experience from you. You can't tell me which car felt more solid or was more stable at high speed because you're reading a stat on a piece of paper or off the net. We're not arguing over something like a 0-60 time, that is not up for debate. That can be proven time and time again, but you can't tell me which car felt more solid by spouting off a rigidity number, when that number is again, for the body in white, not the fully assembled car. You ignore the variables at hand and in fact reviews where the E was said be the most solid feeling car in the test, at test that included the 5-Series. All you did was prove that you know the stats and/or where to find them. You can't prove that my perception of the 2 vehicles is wrong. You simply can't.


M

 

Well at least this is a respectable approach to debating it.

I don't feel it makes the car "deficient" necessarily, I'm sure and as reviews have reported, it is indeed an improvement from the W221, as expected. But from the second I saw the W222 I didn't think the proportions looked as good as I would have liked. Not saying the W221 has "bad proportions" at all, but proportions should always be improved as cars get newer. And there is plenty of overhang area to have shortened and room to have stretched the wheelbase out.

Not to throw BMW into this once again but considering the 7 Series is the S Classes biggest competitor, it is said to get once again an all new wheelbase with extensive CF materials (rumor at this point) used, which in that case would make it a technically and fundamentally "newer" chassis than what the W222 uses.

The carryover-yet improved chassis if that's the case on the W222 isn't a detriment to the actual drive, then I wouldn't say I think it would ruin the car or anything to that degree, however I would always want a new chassis with at least improved wheelbase-to-length proportions, and that would always bug me that the W222 uses what was essentially developed in that regard 7 years before it ever launched. I.e not a deal breaker, but "in a perfect world" I'd want a new chassis or at least something modified more proportionally.

 

What are you saying? Do you even know anymore?

I said I KNOW VERY WELL firsthand EVERYTHING about driving and experiencing the 535i and E350. NOT ONLY do I have FACTS showing the 5 is much more rigid, but I've stated I HAVE driven these cars at triple digit speeds and maneuvered them, and the E Class DOES feel far more unstable. I've had to swerve both cars at high speeds, and know VERY WELL which car is more stable. YOU have made wishful assumptions of "stability" which is laughable as you haven't really driven these cars, and no a 30 MPH jaunt around the block with a salesman doesn't count. I have driven these cars in every which way, and I know exactly what I mean when I say the 5 beats the E in every single respect, save for maybe one or two.

I've gone over the SAME rough roads in both cars, and know VERY WELL exactly which is more solid and sturdy over various roads. I've put endless hours into researching these cars and have over 40K Miles between them of driving.

You have no knowledge in this case, so everything you projected onto me is actually you talking about yourself. Take what I'm telling you as education, because I'm literally educating you on these cars. Next time there's a debate as to how a CLK430 compares in specific driving environments to a 6 Series I'll be listening eagerly to hear your experience, however in this one, you're simply outmatched.

 

Seriously, you make an issue out of nothing. If you don't like the way the new S-Class looks that is one thing, but trying to suggest that there is a problem with the engineering is another. You nor I wouldn't know either way how the W222 originated. Saying it was design 7 years ago is again part of a normal practice. These type of cars take years to design, even with an existing chassis to start with. You can't slap together a car like this. They did that with the W220 and it was a disaster quality wise. This car is being compared to a Ghost or Flying Spur, clearly a step up from the W221 in every way. I don't see an issue with anything engineering related. Styling, proportions, that is a personal preference only.

I happen to think this is the best looking S-Class since the W126 or W220, at least in pics so far. Its a beautiful car and I just like you hate the lines they're using now on cars like the CLS, but it works brilliantly here to me eye.

The 7-Series is all speculation at this point, and saying it will get "an all new wheelbase" doesn't make sense. You can change a wheelbase with the same chassis, so I'm assuming you meant to say it is getting an all new chassis, not wheelbase. Wheelbase is just a measurement.


M

 

I know exactly what I'm saying. Read it again.

Agree to disagree because you can't tell me what my experience was, nor can you just sprout off a number and think that it is the end all when it comes to body stiffness. There are countless examples of cars that say that they're rigid and they don't feel as such when you drive them. That is all I'm saying here, not the the 5er is some time of flexy car. Think about it for a min.

You aren't educating me on anything, you're only tell me what you googled.

If you would actually think about what I'm saying here you would realize that I don't need to own either cars to know how they drive, especially if I've driven them more than once or twice. I'm not talking about reliability or long distance comfort or how they hold up over 40K miles, i.e. things that would require ownership. You're too caught up in wanting to say that you've proved something when you really haven't. You can't prove what my experience is or isn't or what is was or wasn't by giving me stat that you googled and I know you realize this. Has everything you've read translated directly and exactly into your experiences with cars? Its common sense. I keep repeating over and over that I have driven both cars more than once and both of them as loaner cars before and I confess I drive the **** out of a loaner car.


M

 

Fair enough, I'll digress on this. I have my "emotional" preferences but the end all be all is how it drives, and if the drive doesn't get affected then so be it. I'll say that I wish the wheelbase was extended out and the overhangs were shrunk, i.e a modernization of the W221 stance. As for styling, I guess the lines still bug me on this one more than they do you. I saw a W222 in person on the roads and it's unmistakably proportionally identical to the W221 (makes sense as the platform proportions are again identical as is the length, etc.) which isn't a bad thing, as you'd almost confuse the two from the sides, if the car is black (which is what I saw) when it disguises the new lines.

Ok, but what I'm trying to tell you is this "Google" obsession point you have is irrelevant to what I've been trying to get across, over and over again. I'm telling you things that I've learned from these cars off of firsthand impression and experience. It wasn't the statistics of the F10 that made me acknowledge how much stiffer it feels to me, it was feeling how it goes over bumps with even larger wheels and RFT's, bumps that made my W212 feel and sound like a slap-happy mess but get coasted over by my F10. The *fact* that the F10 is 30% stiffer by chassis just confirmed to me that *my experiences* made perfect fundamental sense. My impressions first derived from the day I drove my W212 to pick up my F10, got into my F10 and immediately realized how much quieter it was than the already super-quiet W212, and how it felt like a tank over the same roads I drove over on the way in my W212.

Also keep in mind that as you know, modern day BMW's are sort of like boat anchor "canvases". I.e in base form they're simply heavy, floaty luxury cars really. It's how you spec them that makes all the difference. A 535i with SAT and most importantly the 704 M suspension is a WORLD of difference from a basic 535i or ANY 535i pre-2013 (as the M suspension came out in the U.S in 2013) will be night and day different from my car. Perhaps that explains your different experience in high speed stability from mine as I'm assuming you didn't drive a 2013 M suspension equipped F10 M Sport (?).

Remember, there was an MT or C&D article not too long ago that said of the F10: "It feels tomb-silent and solid, like how Mercedes vehicles used to feel". It just echoes my own experience (and many others who've driven both cars, btw) as well.

 

Agree to disagree. You're not getting it. We have different experiences when driving the cars. Again and again I don't need to own the car to experience it in the way that I'm talking about. I don't know why you keep talking about how it handles bumps and 40K miles, I'm not even talking about that. One blast down an empty road tells me what I need to know here, which is what I've done. Numbers on a piece of paper don't give you that. Our perception of the cars are different.

Now if you're going to cite magazines then you need to look at everything they say because they also say " vault-solid platform" about the E-Class. They say the same thing about the new CLS. A BMW has never, ever felt like a tank to me, and I mean that in a good way. A tank isn't sporty to drive, i.e. what Mercedes were likened to since their inception.

Your issue with the W222 is all personal preference, not engineering.

"Remember, there was an MT or C&D article not too long ago that said of the F10: "It feels tomb-silent and solid, like how Mercedes vehicles used to feel". It just echoes my own experience (and many others who've driven both cars, btw) as well."

Right which is why BMWs regularly lose to the competition when it comes to dynamics. Lexus and Audi and certain Mercedes humiliate them now in that regard because they've become overweight and poorer driving from an enthusiast point of view.

M

 

Well, I get most of that, and agreeing to disagree sounds good to me (it's all I've ever asked! Lol, contrary to popular belief I'm not here to jam my opinion down others throats, but I'll always engage if not enthusiastically in a convo regardless of how OT it may go) and yes BMW feeling like a "tank" now (with the torsional rigidity to actually literally prove it) may be why it's invading in M-B territory of historic luxury and p!ssing off mag editors who just want a raw and connected sports drive.

However, M-B is not near "embarrassing" BMW in dynamics. BMW still crush M-B's in every mag test, the 6 GC always beats the CLS, the 5 always beats the E, the 3 the C. You're citing *AMG* which yes is now embarrassing M in some cases, but the regular cars, nothings changed, except BMW have invaded on M-B luxury and M-B is still making vastly inferior cars in terms of sportiness and dynamics. Hell, even the 6 Series has beaten the SL in most tests I've seen of them together.

An E Class or even CLS (non AMG) for that matter with their lethargic trannies, super overboosted steering, soft gas pedal interaction, and extremely roly-poly handling (namely the E Class) is still very far from a BMW WITH an M Suspension in terms of handling and dynamics, and Magazines very well still showcase that. The gap isn't as large as before as the two move closer to each other in feel, but non-AMG Benzes simply can't reach the dynamic potential of a properly equipped BMW, best example of that is the 535i M Sport with SAT and M suspension VS the floaty yet somehow still harsh E350 "Sport".

 

What the editors want is only part of the equation. The cars that are beating BMWs are just as luxurious also. BMW simply has dropped the ball on dynamics, from the 3 to the 5 to the 7, they're all beat by either Lexus, Audi or even Jaguar.

That is why I said certain Mercedes' not all. The reason why BMW beating Mercedes on dynamics is a moot point because Mercedes never traded on outright dynamics, BMW did and they've been surpassed. That is the point here. Mercedes doesn't even market their cars as the sport sedans of their segments, they aren't trying to reach the dynamic potential of a BMW. Clearly the E is not a sports sedan, nor is the S-Class. Only the C-Class Sport versions go there, but no cigar for them there. BMW on the other hand has surrendered their leading dynamic position to Audi, Lexus and Jaguar in various segments. AMGs beat BMW M's most of the time now too. Huge upset, not thought ever possible before. There is enough compromise to go around with all these brands, including BMW.


M

 

That's one way of seeing it (the mag editors' ways), but the other way of seeing it is how BMW sales have soared since the launch of the new "heavy, luxurious, isolating" F chassis cars.

To me BMW's before were too harsh compared to M-B's. Now I feel they're even more luxurious. Problem is there are so many ways to setup a BMW, lots of these mags test the wrong configurations. And you're right, M-B have never been about sportiness but these days their advertisements are so pandering and misleadingly about "sportiness" as they desperately try and attract the younger crowds, which is just wrong on so many levels to me.

I don't think anyone in the under-S Class segment is making cars as luxurious or serene as BMW, and I think with the right setup, BMW cars are very close to as sporty as Audi's. In my way of judging "dynamic", BMW cars are more "dynamic" than ever because they've introduced world class luxury and interior refinement/finish which I feel they learned from Rolls Royce (what else explains such a drastic jump in luxury and isolation), however can still be exhilarating to levels M-B (non AMG) cars could only wish for.

Here's an excerpt from another article. Remember, in "real life" sportiness isn't everything. The 5 Series is vastly more solid, quiet and luxurious than the A6, which is what makes it a superior vehicle to me. However, Mag reviewers will only give "#1" to the rawest and sportiest cars, even when they admit this:

From Motor Trend for a shootout between a bunch of 6 cylinder Luxury Midsize Sedans.

"But whether this $63,245 Alpine White 535i with an M Sport Package stumbled into second place is moot. At the end of an arduous weeklong test, we scored it higher than the Audi, and here's why: better ride (silkiest of the group), quieter interior (quietest of the group), smoother engine (smoothest of the group), engaging steering, more comfortable and supportive seats, and an overwhelming sense of solidity. Whereas the A6 tried really, really hard to feel like a $60,000 automobile, the BMW didn't even break a sweat.

Much of the 5's air of expensiveness comes from its 7 Series' underpinnings, which, alas, make the 535i feel like its bigger and heavier sibling. It is no longer an upsized 3, but rather a downsized 7. While we prefer the former, there is a plus side to the latter. Says Evans: "The embodiment of what I think of when I think German. Very solid, substantial. Buttoned-down and refined, no-nonsense." From Lieberman: "All that solidity equates to one hell of a nice, smooth ride. 80 mph feels more like 40 mph, and 90 mph feels like a totally responsible, safe cruising speed."

 

That is but one article and if I remember right the A6 beat the 5-Series at another magazine the Lexus GS beat them both. BMW just isn't the pinnacle of driving dynamics anymore outside of the 3-Series' most recent comeback.

BMW's sales have soared in part because their lineup is better looking now, the old cars were downright ugly.

You actually have it backwards, BMW designed all of the latest Rolls Royces and that same relationship with the 5/6/7/Ghost all sharing so much has cost them their dynamic crown. All of these cars are overweight and a shadow of their former selves dynamically, so its all a compromise.

That last comment about speed and what it feels like is consistent with almost any German car, no where near being unique to BMW man. This is what German cars all share, the ability to mask speed.


M

 

- Lots of people say the 3 isn't what it used to be in terms of pure sportiness. However, again, I'd say every new BMW are vastly superior *overall* cars to their predecessors. In fact, you nor I, coming from previous M-B's would have considered BMW's had they not rose their levels of comfort and luxury to meet a certain expected criteria at these price points.

-Lol, yes indeed, any BMW released after 2002 basically went from hot to not. Bringing sexy back sure helped them, but I feel the massive move up in luxury and refinement is what allowed them to truly take over M-B and Lexus sales with a storm.

-Well, yes, there's the compromise. To me, Rolls' influence on BMW has been GOOD. The reason why the 5 Series is so uncharacteristically luxury-oriented, and has such a massively rigid chassis is because it's downsized thick and heavy pig i.e it's literally a slightly smaller 7 and is the core platform for which makes up the Rolls Royce Ghost. Yes, the tradeoff is that it isn't a light and nimble toy as a BMW used to more-so be, but to me (and many other newly acquired customers) the tradeoff is worth it. To me being a smaller 7 and the basis for the Ghost make the F10 on another level of luxury and engineering in this segment and are the best things that happened to it as they forced it to be a drastically over-engineered luxury car that is inherently meant to compete at a much higher price point (therefore a bargain at its positioned price), and to me it shows (hence my enthusiasm towards it) when you drive it. The best part is, with the right setup, it really does feel sporty still, i.e that's why I feel it's as "dynamic" as ever, *IF* you understand what "dynamic" means to *me*.

-Yes, true, but I think the point they're trying to get across is that BMW does this better than anyone right now. BMW's mix of luxury and sport give it an almost scary feeling of confidence in nearly any situation. The tank-like "overwhelming sense of solidity" mixed with BMW's pure-blood sporting heritage make it so the F10 feels capable in areas where its competitors won't. I.e, the A6 is sporty, but it doesn't feel isolating or as solid, nor as quiet, so higher speeds can feel scarier, and the M-B feels solid and quiet at high speeds, but the soft suspension and over-boosted steering make you feel less in control, i.e it doesn't feel as confident as an F10 at high speeds. Those are my experiences and also what I've picked up from reviewers as well.

 

F10: Even WITH being far sportier than the W212, it is also smoother over rough roads, the W212 is known to have a harsh suspension which transmits impacts into the cabin, loosening up interior materials and leading to premature rattling. The F10 goes over the same roads that upset the W212 like a tank, no rattles, which is what 30% more rigidity and engineering straight from the 7 Series will get you. The W212 is not only harsh over rough roads, but it's very floaty and exaggeratedly roly-poly through turns, which shows M-B engineering one of the worst suspension dynamics in this segment. The F10 M suspension on the other hand is exactly how a Sport/Luxury Sedan suspension should be: Stiff through turns and soft over bumps (MB did it the other way around).

Not sure if I agree with that 100%.

I had a F10 and it was the worst BMW or even a sports sedan I have owned. Too much road feel and vibration transmitted into the cabin. The car rode very spongy and didnt stay planted. Not a good BMW compared to my older ones. The F10 wallowed more and was nervous on bad highways in Michigan. It wandered and pulled to the right all the time. It vibrated between 75-80 mph in the seats and I changed steering rack 1x and the drivetrain 1x and got 4 defective rims placed and it minimized problems but never solved it. Such a terrible car and a poor quality especially from BMW. Seriously BMW really is not an ultimate drivers machine anymore so I dont see any point in proving it is because its a mass marketed sedan that is seen everywhere and with huge discounts, its no longer special. Its bland, heavy, and boring.

I find the Lexus GS350 F-sport to be worlds better in handling and ride balance. Its more planted on the road, more smoother yet sporty without all that body roll seen in the 5 series and has a more sharper steering feedback unlike the numb deadspot that the F10 has.

Anyways, the new S class should be a huge improvement over the current S class which was a great car but devoid of driving excitement.

 

The W222 set the bar high for the rest of the world, this Mercedes future, where we are heading, which is good news for us, because the rest of the world beside MR. T-A LOVE it. Today I worked on a 2013 M5 I just did not feel like I was working in something special, nothing like a E63 or even a w211 E55, why is that? The only thing I would give the F10 over the W212 is it clearly is the better looking car, even though it looks like a stretched Honda Accord, but, one thing for sure is, the F10 does not have the reliability of W212 nor will it outlasted any Mercedes

 

The T10 will always be a piece of crap, unless BMW finds ways to get rid of "Egotistical fanboys" like yourself, oops, I forgot, you are they main target. We all here are very clear on where Mercedes wants to be in the future,because, for almost a century, we have defined what an automobile should be, can you tell us, where you think BMW is heading? they need to do something fast to improve on their 15th place ranking, soon, Hyundai or Kia will be a better brand. Can't wait to hear from you

 

Like I said before, the F10's potential can't be truly felt nor experienced unless you have the proper setup. I'm sure the car you had was prior to a 2013 model therefore won't show you how dynamic the F10 truly can be, in IMO being unparalleled in mating luxury and sport.

BMW's these days like I said are akin to "blank canvases". You NEED a 2013+ model WITH M suspension and it will feel night and day from the car you seemed to have. The DHP, all that stuff are gimmicks as they use the same high riding, floaty suspension a base F10 does, relying on electronics. The mechanical M engineered suspension on newer M Sports would have you describing the car much differently.

Your issues with the car while unfortunate are extremely rare as I've never heard anyone really complain about "vibrations" and ultimate serenity inside an F10, i.e in terms of comfort and luxury and solidity the car is unanimously and enthusiastically praised. Compared to BMW's before it, the F10 is eons ahead in luxury and solidity and fit/finish, as you can clearly see and feel how Rolls Royce rubbed off on them when put into context with previous BMW's. You must have had an early model which unfortunately were kind of "universally lemons" as LOTS of issues that plagued them, some of which you describe were mended after about the first year and a half.

The W212 "Sport" suspension is known to be very harsh over rough roads, transmitting lots of harshness into the cabin, however without the benefit of a sporty handling ride, as it still exaggeratedly floats like a boat. The M suspension F10 is the opposite. Even with my 19's and RFT's my car goes over rough roads without a hitch, completely effortless and perfectly while my W212 fumbled and cursed over them.

As for the GS, I drove one extensively as a friend had a loaner and aside from the horrendous styling to me, I did find the ride very balanced, but not as dialed in and confident at higher speeds as the F10 feels. It also didn't have nearly that overwhelming bull-like sense of solidity the F10 has, nor the W212 for that matte (let's say "Germanic" in which the F10 currently showcases the best). I also found the drivetrain very dated and lethargic compared to the extremely efficient and snappy N55 I6/ZF8 combo the 535i especially with SAT has. The GS uses an old carryover V6 with a 6 Speed slushbox that feels 10 years behind (because it practically is).

Here's one of many W212 forum topics that talked about how terrible the dynamics on the W212 "Sport" are, when it comes to harshness and roughness without the benefit of handling attributes:

https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...ugh-roads.html

Well at least there's one thing we agree on: The F10 is a much better design. Ill settle for that.

 

I agree with you on the first few points that I did have a lemon and one of the first BMW 5 with standard suspension and suffered vibration problems. Which model do you have? I assume you have the dynamic handling package?

As for the GS F-Sport. I have one right now and love it. Yes it does come with the older 6 speed auto and good news is that Lexus will have the new 8 speed on sale next month so when my lease is up i will get that one maybe. Otherwise I love the GS and they have done a great job on the F-sport dynamics.

Our s550 is getting sore in the tooth right now and we are ready to plunk down for the new S550 but like what K-A is saying, we have to be sure that it will drive and ride nice and its a new model so I do not want to suffer being the testers and end up with a lemon like my 5.

 

We get so many 5 series in our shop, one would conclude they are all lemon. BMW is in so much of a hurry to keep up with Mercedes Benz, as a result their cars have horrible reliability, if you guys saw what those 2 guys did to that M6, you would think they were bunch of idiots, but, trust me ,it served its purpose, hopefully BMW gets it and stop building lemons. T-A, I know you wanted to make thread about your new F10 5 series,but, this is a Mercedes forum, I'm sure those kids in bmw forums would agree with you, but, no way any of us is gonna let you come here and insult the finest car maker in the world. Btw, trade that F10 in before your warranty expire, if not, we will see you up here claiming how a Hyundai is 30% more rigid than the F10.

 

Check the links below and you will see the difference between Mercedes owners and BMW owners, we attract different buyers, hence the quality of the our products. The quality of a Mercedes part made in China in a Mercedes plant is exactly the same as one made in Germany

 

The first two video's above are quite stupid, there are plenty of idiots doing the same thing with a Mercedes. I dont like BMW but what you posted is nonsense.

 

Well we just disagree. BMWs aren't what they used to be by a long shot, but sure that could have helped them sell more cars, but to less enthusiasts so its either or. You still have the Rolls effect backwards. Rolls didn't have anything to do with BMW. BMW created all the new rollers from scratch actually, not the other way around. BMW didn't "learn" anything from Rolls. They bought the name only, they had to create a new car, factory, staff everything because VW kept everything else. The truth of the matter is that BMW created a platform that has to support the 5,6,8 and the Ghost and it is overweight and considerably less agile than before. Not about them "learning" anything from Rolls Royce, especially since all they got in 1998 was the name.

Clearly BMWs aren't as dynamic as they used to be. As usually you make up your own definition of what dynamic is, though that makes no sense because what you're describing has nothing to do with being dynamic. Ride comfort, softer leather, more wood trim and smothering bumps isn't what anyone who loves to drive would think about when you say a car is dynamic. Just say you like they way they drive, as I do I, but cut the nonsense. BMWs aren't nearly what they used to be on that front. Clearly others have surpassed them in this regard. Feeling sporty is one thing, being it another matter as Lexus, Audi, Cadillac and Jaguar have shown. ATS is praised as having the best chassis in the segment, sure the rest of the car needs works in typical GM fashion.

M