I drove a new BMW I7 and…….
Super Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 522
Likes: 69
From: North Texas
Presently 19 S560 SEDAN, 2014 XK, SOLD GLE 450e
[QUOTE=S_W222;9014490]Am disappointed to hear that most of you who test drove the Panamera4 didn't like it. I was (and am still) very excited for it.
After two Model S Teslas and one EQS450 I find the real (did I say REAL?) range isn't good enough other than for going to work or the grocery. Buying a used S560 Coupe come Monday (if it's ready) with 6700 miles on it. Had two CL550s and one S560 Coupe prior to the evs.
Drove the EQS to Sweetwater, Texas to a Electrify America with five charger in Jan 2nd of 2023. All five were out of comission and I had but 45 miles of range on the car left (45 miles gets you nowhere in Texas). Did call the phone number on the units and a lady rebooted one where it worked again.
By the way, the EQS rode and had a better range than the 'supposed 402 mile range the Tesla Model S's claim (EPA claim). All those evs that claim a range over 300 miles ...........is bull scat if driving on an interstare hwy at 75-80 miles per hour. Car and Driver says in their test of the Lucid Air GT, that it went but ?? 410 miles in their test.
After two Model S Teslas and one EQS450 I find the real (did I say REAL?) range isn't good enough other than for going to work or the grocery. Buying a used S560 Coupe come Monday (if it's ready) with 6700 miles on it. Had two CL550s and one S560 Coupe prior to the evs.
Drove the EQS to Sweetwater, Texas to a Electrify America with five charger in Jan 2nd of 2023. All five were out of comission and I had but 45 miles of range on the car left (45 miles gets you nowhere in Texas). Did call the phone number on the units and a lady rebooted one where it worked again.
By the way, the EQS rode and had a better range than the 'supposed 402 mile range the Tesla Model S's claim (EPA claim). All those evs that claim a range over 300 miles ...........is bull scat if driving on an interstare hwy at 75-80 miles per hour. Car and Driver says in their test of the Lucid Air GT, that it went but ?? 410 miles in their test.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,123
Likes: 4,351
From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
[QUOTE=HAILERS2;9055452]
Electric isn’t for everyone, not yet. But, for SO many folks with relatively short commutes and the ability to easily charge at home or office, it’s a home run. I have only a week of driving an EV under my belt. I was able to handle my daily commute and charge overnight on 110 volts and was fine all week long. When I get my 240 volt charger hooked up and then, when I get solar panels & battery back up, it will be great. All that said, it is the ultra smooth, ultra quiet electric drive that is just so addictive.
On a side note, I took my SL for a very nice drive yesterday. It was enjoyable, feeling the ROAR of my V6
and the transmission running up and down through the gears, but after an hour or so of that, it was enough. For my daily driver, it’s electric propulsion all the way. I’m never going back!
Am disappointed to hear that most of you who test drove the Panamera4 didn't like it. I was (and am still) very excited for it.
After two Model S Teslas and one EQS450 I find the real (did I say REAL?) range isn't good enough other than for going to work or the grocery. Buying a used S560 Coupe come Monday (if it's ready) with 6700 miles on it. Had two CL550s and one S560 Coupe prior to the evs.
Drove the EQS to Sweetwater, Texas to a Electrify America with five charger in Jan 2nd of 2023. All five were out of comission and I had but 45 miles of range on the car left (45 miles gets you nowhere in Texas). Did call the phone number on the units and a lady rebooted one where it worked again.
By the way, the EQS rode and had a better range than the 'supposed 402 mile range the Tesla Model S's claim (EPA claim). All those evs that claim a range over 300 miles ...........is bull scat if driving on an interstare hwy at 75-80 miles per hour. Car and Driver says in their test of the Lucid Air GT, that it went but ?? 410 miles in their test.
After two Model S Teslas and one EQS450 I find the real (did I say REAL?) range isn't good enough other than for going to work or the grocery. Buying a used S560 Coupe come Monday (if it's ready) with 6700 miles on it. Had two CL550s and one S560 Coupe prior to the evs.
Drove the EQS to Sweetwater, Texas to a Electrify America with five charger in Jan 2nd of 2023. All five were out of comission and I had but 45 miles of range on the car left (45 miles gets you nowhere in Texas). Did call the phone number on the units and a lady rebooted one where it worked again.
By the way, the EQS rode and had a better range than the 'supposed 402 mile range the Tesla Model S's claim (EPA claim). All those evs that claim a range over 300 miles ...........is bull scat if driving on an interstare hwy at 75-80 miles per hour. Car and Driver says in their test of the Lucid Air GT, that it went but ?? 410 miles in their test.
On a side note, I took my SL for a very nice drive yesterday. It was enjoyable, feeling the ROAR of my V6
and the transmission running up and down through the gears, but after an hour or so of that, it was enough. For my daily driver, it’s electric propulsion all the way. I’m never going back!
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Cincinnati
2010 E350 4Matic
Drove an EQS today and found it to be a very refined car. Interestingly I am always surprised by the quietness and smoothness of my V6 W212 after driving one these big bucks EV's which I suppose is a credit to Mercedes engineering combined with my gentle driving style.
IMHO Mercedes still makes the best automobiles in the world.
IMHO Mercedes still makes the best automobiles in the world.
Last edited by MBNUT1; Oct 26, 2024 at 11:31 PM.
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23 S580 Executive
Not feeling it.
My 580 had wipers that scraped dry glass, or would fail to turn on, every time it rained. The new car, I haven't adjusted it yet; they turn on when they're supposed to and turn off as expected. Nothing unusual about that, a Camry can do it, but it's a bar my Mercedes couldn't get over.
It had doors with latches that couldn't hold the weight of the door in the detents, those detents were not optimally located, I'm 6'1" and couldn't reach the door handle when the door was all the way open, the thing which was meant to be an interior door handle but is not a handle squeaked every time you used it to close the door. Not that you would use it every time, because sometimes you can't reach it, and use the door pocket to pull the door in to where you could reach it.
The key fob had to be bagged to keep it out of contact with the car, or the battery would die.
If the tires went just 1 psi under pressure, you lose all your goods. Don't fix it soon enough, you'll lose your infotainment screen. Remember the battery dying with the fob in contact? That's because the car wasn't fully shutting off, to get out of it, you needed to get the key away from the car, or into a bag, so you could get a complete shutdown, which would then reset the infotainment screen.
The car could sometimes go 15 minutes before Tidal would connect, that meant that running down to the local market would at times happen without the 6500 dollar stereo able to play.
Door handles. Going back some 20 or more years, I had one of the first cars with keyless entry, it worked every time without fail. After leaving MB and going to BMW I have far more sophisticated entry than the 580 which works every time without fail. MB... fail. It's not just high end, I rent a lot of cars because I travel a great deal for both work and play, the keyless always works. Some those cars that are literally as much as 1/4 the cost of my loaded 580.
I can go on here for a while, but I'm not going to, you get the idea. Porsche (for example) kicks sand in its face, and walks away with the girl if we're talking about engineering. I'm ok with that because you pay a lot more. But I'm not ok with Mazda, Toyota, Chevrolet, and so on, often doing better. My understanding is that I ended up getting into the wrong car at the wrong time, and it had been better. I'm willing to accept that, and assuming the facelift impresses, I might try it again. But best automobile in the world? I didn't see that. They get one more try, or at least a look, but they are going to have to do a lot better if they want my money. Color me unimpressed.
My 580 had wipers that scraped dry glass, or would fail to turn on, every time it rained. The new car, I haven't adjusted it yet; they turn on when they're supposed to and turn off as expected. Nothing unusual about that, a Camry can do it, but it's a bar my Mercedes couldn't get over.
It had doors with latches that couldn't hold the weight of the door in the detents, those detents were not optimally located, I'm 6'1" and couldn't reach the door handle when the door was all the way open, the thing which was meant to be an interior door handle but is not a handle squeaked every time you used it to close the door. Not that you would use it every time, because sometimes you can't reach it, and use the door pocket to pull the door in to where you could reach it.
The key fob had to be bagged to keep it out of contact with the car, or the battery would die.
If the tires went just 1 psi under pressure, you lose all your goods. Don't fix it soon enough, you'll lose your infotainment screen. Remember the battery dying with the fob in contact? That's because the car wasn't fully shutting off, to get out of it, you needed to get the key away from the car, or into a bag, so you could get a complete shutdown, which would then reset the infotainment screen.
The car could sometimes go 15 minutes before Tidal would connect, that meant that running down to the local market would at times happen without the 6500 dollar stereo able to play.
Door handles. Going back some 20 or more years, I had one of the first cars with keyless entry, it worked every time without fail. After leaving MB and going to BMW I have far more sophisticated entry than the 580 which works every time without fail. MB... fail. It's not just high end, I rent a lot of cars because I travel a great deal for both work and play, the keyless always works. Some those cars that are literally as much as 1/4 the cost of my loaded 580.
I can go on here for a while, but I'm not going to, you get the idea. Porsche (for example) kicks sand in its face, and walks away with the girl if we're talking about engineering. I'm ok with that because you pay a lot more. But I'm not ok with Mazda, Toyota, Chevrolet, and so on, often doing better. My understanding is that I ended up getting into the wrong car at the wrong time, and it had been better. I'm willing to accept that, and assuming the facelift impresses, I might try it again. But best automobile in the world? I didn't see that. They get one more try, or at least a look, but they are going to have to do a lot better if they want my money. Color me unimpressed.
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 32,222
Likes: 6,278
Not feeling it.
My 580 had wipers that scraped dry glass, or would fail to turn on, every time it rained. The new car, I haven't adjusted it yet; they turn on when they're supposed to and turn off as expected. Nothing unusual about that, a Camry can do it, but it's a bar my Mercedes couldn't get over.
It had doors with latches that couldn't hold the weight of the door in the detents, those detents were not optimally located, I'm 6'1" and couldn't reach the door handle when the door was all the way open, the thing which was meant to be an interior door handle but is not a handle squeaked every time you used it to close the door. Not that you would use it every time, because sometimes you can't reach it, and use the door pocket to pull the door in to where you could reach it.
The key fob had to be bagged to keep it out of contact with the car, or the battery would die.
If the tires went just 1 psi under pressure, you lose all your goods. Don't fix it soon enough, you'll lose your infotainment screen. Remember the battery dying with the fob in contact? That's because the car wasn't fully shutting off, to get out of it, you needed to get the key away from the car, or into a bag, so you could get a complete shutdown, which would then reset the infotainment screen.
The car could sometimes go 15 minutes before Tidal would connect, that meant that running down to the local market would at times happen without the 6500 dollar stereo able to play.
Door handles. Going back some 20 or more years, I had one of the first cars with keyless entry, it worked every time without fail. After leaving MB and going to BMW I have far more sophisticated entry than the 580 which works every time without fail. MB... fail. It's not just high end, I rent a lot of cars because I travel a great deal for both work and play, the keyless always works. Some those cars that are literally as much as 1/4 the cost of my loaded 580.
I can go on here for a while, but I'm not going to, you get the idea. Porsche (for example) kicks sand in its face, and walks away with the girl if we're talking about engineering. I'm ok with that because you pay a lot more. But I'm not ok with Mazda, Toyota, Chevrolet, and so on, often doing better. My understanding is that I ended up getting into the wrong car at the wrong time, and it had been better. I'm willing to accept that, and assuming the facelift impresses, I might try it again. But best automobile in the world? I didn't see that. They get one more try, or at least a look, but they are going to have to do a lot better if they want my money. Color me unimpressed.
My 580 had wipers that scraped dry glass, or would fail to turn on, every time it rained. The new car, I haven't adjusted it yet; they turn on when they're supposed to and turn off as expected. Nothing unusual about that, a Camry can do it, but it's a bar my Mercedes couldn't get over.
It had doors with latches that couldn't hold the weight of the door in the detents, those detents were not optimally located, I'm 6'1" and couldn't reach the door handle when the door was all the way open, the thing which was meant to be an interior door handle but is not a handle squeaked every time you used it to close the door. Not that you would use it every time, because sometimes you can't reach it, and use the door pocket to pull the door in to where you could reach it.
The key fob had to be bagged to keep it out of contact with the car, or the battery would die.
If the tires went just 1 psi under pressure, you lose all your goods. Don't fix it soon enough, you'll lose your infotainment screen. Remember the battery dying with the fob in contact? That's because the car wasn't fully shutting off, to get out of it, you needed to get the key away from the car, or into a bag, so you could get a complete shutdown, which would then reset the infotainment screen.
The car could sometimes go 15 minutes before Tidal would connect, that meant that running down to the local market would at times happen without the 6500 dollar stereo able to play.
Door handles. Going back some 20 or more years, I had one of the first cars with keyless entry, it worked every time without fail. After leaving MB and going to BMW I have far more sophisticated entry than the 580 which works every time without fail. MB... fail. It's not just high end, I rent a lot of cars because I travel a great deal for both work and play, the keyless always works. Some those cars that are literally as much as 1/4 the cost of my loaded 580.
I can go on here for a while, but I'm not going to, you get the idea. Porsche (for example) kicks sand in its face, and walks away with the girl if we're talking about engineering. I'm ok with that because you pay a lot more. But I'm not ok with Mazda, Toyota, Chevrolet, and so on, often doing better. My understanding is that I ended up getting into the wrong car at the wrong time, and it had been better. I'm willing to accept that, and assuming the facelift impresses, I might try it again. But best automobile in the world? I didn't see that. They get one more try, or at least a look, but they are going to have to do a lot better if they want my money. Color me unimpressed.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,975
Likes: 1,343
From: Cincinnati
2010 E350 4Matic
Not feeling it.
My 580 had wipers that scraped dry glass, or would fail to turn on, every time it rained. The new car, I haven't adjusted it yet; they turn on when they're supposed to and turn off as expected. Nothing unusual about that, a Camry can do it, but it's a bar my Mercedes couldn't get over.
It had doors with latches that couldn't hold the weight of the door in the detents, those detents were not optimally located, I'm 6'1" and couldn't reach the door handle when the door was all the way open, the thing which was meant to be an interior door handle but is not a handle squeaked every time you used it to close the door. Not that you would use it every time, because sometimes you can't reach it, and use the door pocket to pull the door in to where you could reach it.
The key fob had to be bagged to keep it out of contact with the car, or the battery would die.
If the tires went just 1 psi under pressure, you lose all your goods. Don't fix it soon enough, you'll lose your infotainment screen. Remember the battery dying with the fob in contact? That's because the car wasn't fully shutting off, to get out of it, you needed to get the key away from the car, or into a bag, so you could get a complete shutdown, which would then reset the infotainment screen.
The car could sometimes go 15 minutes before Tidal would connect, that meant that running down to the local market would at times happen without the 6500 dollar stereo able to play.
Door handles. Going back some 20 or more years, I had one of the first cars with keyless entry, it worked every time without fail. After leaving MB and going to BMW I have far more sophisticated entry than the 580 which works every time without fail. MB... fail. It's not just high end, I rent a lot of cars because I travel a great deal for both work and play, the keyless always works. Some those cars that are literally as much as 1/4 the cost of my loaded 580.
I can go on here for a while, but I'm not going to, you get the idea. Porsche (for example) kicks sand in its face, and walks away with the girl if we're talking about engineering. I'm ok with that because you pay a lot more. But I'm not ok with Mazda, Toyota, Chevrolet, and so on, often doing better. My understanding is that I ended up getting into the wrong car at the wrong time, and it had been better. I'm willing to accept that, and assuming the facelift impresses, I might try it again. But best automobile in the world? I didn't see that. They get one more try, or at least a look, but they are going to have to do a lot better if they want my money. Color me unimpressed.
My 580 had wipers that scraped dry glass, or would fail to turn on, every time it rained. The new car, I haven't adjusted it yet; they turn on when they're supposed to and turn off as expected. Nothing unusual about that, a Camry can do it, but it's a bar my Mercedes couldn't get over.
It had doors with latches that couldn't hold the weight of the door in the detents, those detents were not optimally located, I'm 6'1" and couldn't reach the door handle when the door was all the way open, the thing which was meant to be an interior door handle but is not a handle squeaked every time you used it to close the door. Not that you would use it every time, because sometimes you can't reach it, and use the door pocket to pull the door in to where you could reach it.
The key fob had to be bagged to keep it out of contact with the car, or the battery would die.
If the tires went just 1 psi under pressure, you lose all your goods. Don't fix it soon enough, you'll lose your infotainment screen. Remember the battery dying with the fob in contact? That's because the car wasn't fully shutting off, to get out of it, you needed to get the key away from the car, or into a bag, so you could get a complete shutdown, which would then reset the infotainment screen.
The car could sometimes go 15 minutes before Tidal would connect, that meant that running down to the local market would at times happen without the 6500 dollar stereo able to play.
Door handles. Going back some 20 or more years, I had one of the first cars with keyless entry, it worked every time without fail. After leaving MB and going to BMW I have far more sophisticated entry than the 580 which works every time without fail. MB... fail. It's not just high end, I rent a lot of cars because I travel a great deal for both work and play, the keyless always works. Some those cars that are literally as much as 1/4 the cost of my loaded 580.
I can go on here for a while, but I'm not going to, you get the idea. Porsche (for example) kicks sand in its face, and walks away with the girl if we're talking about engineering. I'm ok with that because you pay a lot more. But I'm not ok with Mazda, Toyota, Chevrolet, and so on, often doing better. My understanding is that I ended up getting into the wrong car at the wrong time, and it had been better. I'm willing to accept that, and assuming the facelift impresses, I might try it again. But best automobile in the world? I didn't see that. They get one more try, or at least a look, but they are going to have to do a lot better if they want my money. Color me unimpressed.
My comment was limited to the driving experience when everything is working properly a perfect balance of ride and handling, freight train like directional stability and that carved from granite feel.
Admittedly I am a 60+ year fan boy. I have connections to the brand that very, very few others do. There are no other cars that I really want, not that Mercedes isn't heading in a direction of disappointment e.g. the W214 styling, W223 interior, W223 AMG front end etc.
Having had an Audi for a long time I am open to them but everything being equal in general would prefer the Mercedes every time. While I agree that Porsche can make a desirable car the, Porsche tax is ridiculous particularly from an operating cost perspective and never really been able to get enthused about BMW's.
Given that and to your point if I couldn't find a Mercedes that I want I would probably throw in the towel and settle for a mass market Japanese car.
Last edited by MBNUT1; Oct 27, 2024 at 10:21 AM.
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 583
Likes: 238
From: South by Southwest
2021 AMG E63s Wagon
Enjoy reading this Thread even though not part of this Demographic…Still enjoy driving ICE across country up to 12-14 hours per day and miss driving Peterbuilt, KW, and Mack Diesel trucks on and off road in the Permian Basin Oilfields for Adventure until age 59.5 after first retiring early from a nearly 30-year Aerospace Career in SoCal and Missile Range in New Mexico.
My question to the group is this: How is the comfort level of the i7, S580, EQS, or any other $150K Premium Luxury vehicle for the Passenger or Rear Seat Occupants? My wife could care less about my driving engagement and Nirvana as I drove the family on Short or 1500-mile Treks across America for the Holidays…plus became more critical and no longer desired to sit low in a Sedan as she got older. All I know is that I fell asleep in the back seat of S222 with premium leather on the showroom floor while my AMG Wagon was getting its first Oil Change in 2022 and it felt much better as a passenger than a Driver when we drove up from Brooklyn to Poughkeepsie one Thanksgiving in a Bentley and a Rolls.
Since the Pandemic I’ve noticed overall quality of stuff has taken a big hit…I’m on my second replacement Refrigerator since 2020 after my initial one obtained in 2003 when we built our NM Residence failed after 17-years. Waiting on a part now and repairman to install it before I return back East for the Holidays…smh
My question to the group is this: How is the comfort level of the i7, S580, EQS, or any other $150K Premium Luxury vehicle for the Passenger or Rear Seat Occupants? My wife could care less about my driving engagement and Nirvana as I drove the family on Short or 1500-mile Treks across America for the Holidays…plus became more critical and no longer desired to sit low in a Sedan as she got older. All I know is that I fell asleep in the back seat of S222 with premium leather on the showroom floor while my AMG Wagon was getting its first Oil Change in 2022 and it felt much better as a passenger than a Driver when we drove up from Brooklyn to Poughkeepsie one Thanksgiving in a Bentley and a Rolls.
Since the Pandemic I’ve noticed overall quality of stuff has taken a big hit…I’m on my second replacement Refrigerator since 2020 after my initial one obtained in 2003 when we built our NM Residence failed after 17-years. Waiting on a part now and repairman to install it before I return back East for the Holidays…smh
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,123
Likes: 4,351
From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Not feeling it.
My 580 had wipers that scraped dry glass, or would fail to turn on, every time it rained. The new car, I haven't adjusted it yet; they turn on when they're supposed to and turn off as expected. Nothing unusual about that, a Camry can do it, but it's a bar my Mercedes couldn't get over.
It had doors with latches that couldn't hold the weight of the door in the detents, those detents were not optimally located, I'm 6'1" and couldn't reach the door handle when the door was all the way open, the thing which was meant to be an interior door handle but is not a handle squeaked every time you used it to close the door. Not that you would use it every time, because sometimes you can't reach it, and use the door pocket to pull the door in to where you could reach it.
The key fob had to be bagged to keep it out of contact with the car, or the battery would die.
If the tires went just 1 psi under pressure, you lose all your goods. Don't fix it soon enough, you'll lose your infotainment screen. Remember the battery dying with the fob in contact? That's because the car wasn't fully shutting off, to get out of it, you needed to get the key away from the car, or into a bag, so you could get a complete shutdown, which would then reset the infotainment screen.
The car could sometimes go 15 minutes before Tidal would connect, that meant that running down to the local market would at times happen without the 6500 dollar stereo able to play.
Door handles. Going back some 20 or more years, I had one of the first cars with keyless entry, it worked every time without fail. After leaving MB and going to BMW I have far more sophisticated entry than the 580 which works every time without fail. MB... fail. It's not just high end, I rent a lot of cars because I travel a great deal for both work and play, the keyless always works. Some those cars that are literally as much as 1/4 the cost of my loaded 580.
I can go on here for a while, but I'm not going to, you get the idea. Porsche (for example) kicks sand in its face, and walks away with the girl if we're talking about engineering. I'm ok with that because you pay a lot more. But I'm not ok with Mazda, Toyota, Chevrolet, and so on, often doing better. My understanding is that I ended up getting into the wrong car at the wrong time, and it had been better. I'm willing to accept that, and assuming the facelift impresses, I might try it again. But best automobile in the world? I didn't see that. They get one more try, or at least a look, but they are going to have to do a lot better if they want my money. Color me unimpressed.
My 580 had wipers that scraped dry glass, or would fail to turn on, every time it rained. The new car, I haven't adjusted it yet; they turn on when they're supposed to and turn off as expected. Nothing unusual about that, a Camry can do it, but it's a bar my Mercedes couldn't get over.
It had doors with latches that couldn't hold the weight of the door in the detents, those detents were not optimally located, I'm 6'1" and couldn't reach the door handle when the door was all the way open, the thing which was meant to be an interior door handle but is not a handle squeaked every time you used it to close the door. Not that you would use it every time, because sometimes you can't reach it, and use the door pocket to pull the door in to where you could reach it.
The key fob had to be bagged to keep it out of contact with the car, or the battery would die.
If the tires went just 1 psi under pressure, you lose all your goods. Don't fix it soon enough, you'll lose your infotainment screen. Remember the battery dying with the fob in contact? That's because the car wasn't fully shutting off, to get out of it, you needed to get the key away from the car, or into a bag, so you could get a complete shutdown, which would then reset the infotainment screen.
The car could sometimes go 15 minutes before Tidal would connect, that meant that running down to the local market would at times happen without the 6500 dollar stereo able to play.
Door handles. Going back some 20 or more years, I had one of the first cars with keyless entry, it worked every time without fail. After leaving MB and going to BMW I have far more sophisticated entry than the 580 which works every time without fail. MB... fail. It's not just high end, I rent a lot of cars because I travel a great deal for both work and play, the keyless always works. Some those cars that are literally as much as 1/4 the cost of my loaded 580.
I can go on here for a while, but I'm not going to, you get the idea. Porsche (for example) kicks sand in its face, and walks away with the girl if we're talking about engineering. I'm ok with that because you pay a lot more. But I'm not ok with Mazda, Toyota, Chevrolet, and so on, often doing better. My understanding is that I ended up getting into the wrong car at the wrong time, and it had been better. I'm willing to accept that, and assuming the facelift impresses, I might try it again. But best automobile in the world? I didn't see that. They get one more try, or at least a look, but they are going to have to do a lot better if they want my money. Color me unimpressed.
On a side note, I have been driving a new X5 loaner for the past week now, as the dealer is replacing the windshield in my I7. A few months ago, I drove a bare bones GLE350 loaner for 40 days as the MB dealer futzed with the transmission in my 2020 S560—what did I say about the W222’s being so great???
—and I must say that for me, the GLE was a much better fit. I felt that the ride quality and driving dynamics were better and—steering wheel controls notwithstanding—it was just a nicer experience overall. But then I think that getting a good transmission experience in a current MB seems to be a crap shoot and that the GLE I had might have been—probably was—an anomaly and one can never rely on good ones to stay that way over time.I am really hoping that MB gets their house in order. Greatness is still within their grasp, I just know it. I believe that heads—including Ola’s—need to roll.
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Current/Last 5-years:GLS;G70;Alpina B8;X7;Accord. Sold:X7,TeslaS;S560;S550,X5;530e;L.Navigator;LS460
..//..I drove a bare bones GLE350 loaner for 40 days as the MB dealer futzed with the transmission in my 2020 S560—what did I say about the W222’s being so great???—and I must say that for me, the GLE was a much better fit. I felt that the ride quality and driving dynamics were better and—steering wheel controls notwithstanding—it was just a nicer experience overall. But then I think that getting a good transmission experience in a current MB seems to be a crap shoot and that the GLE I had might have been—probably was—an anomaly and one can never rely on good ones to stay that way over time.
I am really hoping that MB gets their house in order. Greatness is still within their grasp, I just know it. I believe that heads—including Ola’s—need to roll.
—and I must say that for me, the GLE was a much better fit. I felt that the ride quality and driving dynamics were better and—steering wheel controls notwithstanding—it was just a nicer experience overall. But then I think that getting a good transmission experience in a current MB seems to be a crap shoot and that the GLE I had might have been—probably was—an anomaly and one can never rely on good ones to stay that way over time.I am really hoping that MB gets their house in order. Greatness is still within their grasp, I just know it. I believe that heads—including Ola’s—need to roll.
Actually this experience was the main reason I’ve chosen to avoid V8 models moving forward, inluding in my recent GLS search (and I posted that even before I found my GLS),,,, it is why I specifically wanted to search for a well-equipped GLS but only the L6 mild-hybrid engine. Unfortunately, in that past, the W222 didn’t offer a mild-hybrid L6, though Mercedes has added mild-hybrid tech into most (if not all) newer models, including the W223 so now it's a no issue. L6 in the W222 never drove that good cause it was missing the mild-hybrid or EQ tech which you can now get in newer models. If I decide to switch my sedan back to Benz, the W223 PHEV would be a strong candidate. But with the i7 available, it’s hard to justify an ICE S-Class unless range is a priority for road trips, which it is for now. Still, a fully-loaded W223 PHEV remains a solid option, if not the only acceptable one for me, given Mbenz failure with their transmissions. If I never had BMWs with proper transmissions, I probably would have digested Mbenz transmissions but it's not the case.
Last edited by S_W222; Oct 27, 2024 at 12:14 PM.
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I don’t think that GLE you had as a loaner with a smooth transmission was an anomaly. The GLE you mentioned clearly didn’t have the V8 paired with the 9G transmission, which I believe is the main issue. From my experience, GLEs and other models equipped with either the 4-cylinder or the L6 mild-hybrid engines tend to avoid the rough shifting that almost all V8 Mercedes vehicles exhibit. Most L6 owners, myself included, consistently report smooth shifting with the L6 engines; on the other I believe that almost every V8 on the road won't shift as good. Having owned Mbenz cars with both engines, including two GL (GL and GLS) vehicles with the L6, I’ve never encountered the shifting issues that were in comparison very easy to notice in my two W222s with V8. The V8 + 9G configuration in my W222s never shifted like a true luxury car should. Many owners might overlook the rough shifting, but for those who owned or came from a BMW’s experience, it’s hard to ignore how mismatched the V8 feels with Mercedes’ 9G transmission.
Actually this experience was the main reason I’ve chosen to avoid V8 models moving forward, inluding in my recent GLS search (and I posted that even before I found my GLS),,,, it is why I specifically wanted to search for a well-equipped GLS but only the L6 mild-hybrid engine. Unfortunately, in that past, the W222 didn’t offer a mild-hybrid L6, though Mercedes has added mild-hybrid tech into most (if not all) newer models, including the W223 so now it's a no issue. L6 in the W222 never drove that good cause it was missing the mild-hybrid or EQ tech which you can now get in newer models. If I decide to switch my sedan back to Benz, the W223 PHEV would be a strong candidate. But with the i7 available, it’s hard to justify an ICE S-Class unless range is a priority for road trips, which it is for now. Still, a fully-loaded W223 PHEV remains a solid option, if not the only acceptable one for me, given Mbenz failure with their transmissions. If I never had BMWs with proper transmissions, I probably would have digested Mbenz transmissions but it's not the case.
Actually this experience was the main reason I’ve chosen to avoid V8 models moving forward, inluding in my recent GLS search (and I posted that even before I found my GLS),,,, it is why I specifically wanted to search for a well-equipped GLS but only the L6 mild-hybrid engine. Unfortunately, in that past, the W222 didn’t offer a mild-hybrid L6, though Mercedes has added mild-hybrid tech into most (if not all) newer models, including the W223 so now it's a no issue. L6 in the W222 never drove that good cause it was missing the mild-hybrid or EQ tech which you can now get in newer models. If I decide to switch my sedan back to Benz, the W223 PHEV would be a strong candidate. But with the i7 available, it’s hard to justify an ICE S-Class unless range is a priority for road trips, which it is for now. Still, a fully-loaded W223 PHEV remains a solid option, if not the only acceptable one for me, given Mbenz failure with their transmissions. If I never had BMWs with proper transmissions, I probably would have digested Mbenz transmissions but it's not the case.
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...-shifting.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...on-issues.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...-recently.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...nshifting.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...on-issues.html
My opinion: Along with problems with the shifting on MB's transmissions in general. the 48V mild hybrid added complexity to the transmission shifting logic which made it worse.
That said, there are ways to improve it, standstill adaptation and forced adaptation.
As much as I am an MB fan, I want to still call them out, that is how they improve their products.
It breaks my heart as an MB fan to see how the company became lately, I definitely do not feel any pleasure complaining about the brand I truly loved. Quite opposite. That said, I am glad to see the improvements in both material, design and software starting with the W214 but there are more that needs to be done.
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23 S580 Executive
Yeah I get what you are saying.
My comment was limited to the driving experience when everything is working properly a perfect balance of ride and handling, freight train like directional stability and that carved from granite feel.
Admittedly I am a 60+ year fan boy. I have connections to the brand that very, very few others do. There are no other cars that I really want, not that Mercedes isn't heading in a direction of disappointment e.g. the W214 styling, W223 interior, W223 AMG front end etc.
Having had an Audi for a long time I am open to them but everything being equal in general would prefer the Mercedes every time. While I agree that Porsche can make a desirable car the, Porsche tax is ridiculous particularly from an operating cost perspective and never really been able to get enthused about BMW's.
Given that and to your point if I couldn't find a Mercedes that I want I would probably throw in the towel and settle for a mass market Japanese car.
My comment was limited to the driving experience when everything is working properly a perfect balance of ride and handling, freight train like directional stability and that carved from granite feel.
Admittedly I am a 60+ year fan boy. I have connections to the brand that very, very few others do. There are no other cars that I really want, not that Mercedes isn't heading in a direction of disappointment e.g. the W214 styling, W223 interior, W223 AMG front end etc.
Having had an Audi for a long time I am open to them but everything being equal in general would prefer the Mercedes every time. While I agree that Porsche can make a desirable car the, Porsche tax is ridiculous particularly from an operating cost perspective and never really been able to get enthused about BMW's.
Given that and to your point if I couldn't find a Mercedes that I want I would probably throw in the towel and settle for a mass market Japanese car.
I'm also, ahem, well experienced, if you will. For me Porsche was a wonderful ownership experience, they have a goodness about them that doesn't really show through in a test drive, but you start to appreciate them over time. They've never been a good value, and that really has worsened in recent times. The pricing has become, in my opinion, ridiculous. Combine that with the fact that I was finding it less and less fun to get in and out of them; and I found myself in an S Class. The fact that Porsche dealers got to be intolerable in the pandemic, probably had something to do with it as well; leasing a new Porsche makes a root canal look like fun.
In any event, I do respect your opinion. I'm on record as saying this car was betrayed by it's executive cadre, rather than being an engineering failure. You can't be the best when your leadership forces products out the door that were undercooked. Not just undercooked, but have significant issues that were known, couldn't possibly have not been known, and ignored. Take the attack doors, no way that didn't immedietly come up in development, but they didnt' respect their customers enough to sort them out better. These kinds of things are where the car went wrong. I'm sure their engineering is world class, but bad decisions will overcome good engineering every time.
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Ah, I follow you now. I was often defending the S-class here, for what I felt was unfair critisism. When it was working, it was fantastic. I liked the ride. The comfort. The tunes. The fundamental goodness is there, and I haven't departed this forum for a reason, if they fix some of the stuff that was driving me batty, I'm going to roll another.
I'm also, ahem, well experienced, if you will. For me Porsche was a wonderful ownership experience, they have a goodness about them that doesn't really show through in a test drive, but you start to appreciate them over time. They've never been a good value, and that really has worsened in recent times. The pricing has become, in my opinion, ridiculous. Combine that with the fact that I was finding it less and less fun to get in and out of them; and I found myself in an S Class. The fact that Porsche dealers got to be intolerable in the pandemic, probably had something to do with it as well; leasing a new Porsche makes a root canal look like fun.
In any event, I do respect your opinion. I'm on record as saying this car was betrayed by it's executive cadre, rather than being an engineering failure. You can't be the best when your leadership forces products out the door that were undercooked. Not just undercooked, but have significant issues that were known, couldn't possibly have not been known, and ignored. Take the attack doors, no way that didn't immedietly come up in development, but they didnt' respect their customers enough to sort them out better. These kinds of things are where the car went wrong. I'm sure their engineering is world class, but bad decisions will overcome good engineering every time.
I'm also, ahem, well experienced, if you will. For me Porsche was a wonderful ownership experience, they have a goodness about them that doesn't really show through in a test drive, but you start to appreciate them over time. They've never been a good value, and that really has worsened in recent times. The pricing has become, in my opinion, ridiculous. Combine that with the fact that I was finding it less and less fun to get in and out of them; and I found myself in an S Class. The fact that Porsche dealers got to be intolerable in the pandemic, probably had something to do with it as well; leasing a new Porsche makes a root canal look like fun.
In any event, I do respect your opinion. I'm on record as saying this car was betrayed by it's executive cadre, rather than being an engineering failure. You can't be the best when your leadership forces products out the door that were undercooked. Not just undercooked, but have significant issues that were known, couldn't possibly have not been known, and ignored. Take the attack doors, no way that didn't immedietly come up in development, but they didnt' respect their customers enough to sort them out better. These kinds of things are where the car went wrong. I'm sure their engineering is world class, but bad decisions will overcome good engineering every time.
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Posts: 3,106
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From: U.S.
Current/Last 5-years:GLS;G70;Alpina B8;X7;Accord. Sold:X7,TeslaS;S560;S550,X5;530e;L.Navigator;LS460
For what it is worth, there were indeed reports of shifting issues with i6, V6, i4 configurations as well. Only talking about GLE wise, here are some threads:
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...-shifting.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...on-issues.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...-recently.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...nshifting.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...on-issues.html
My opinion: Along with problems with the shifting on MB's transmissions in general. the 48V mild hybrid added complexity to the transmission shifting logic which made it worse.
That said, there are ways to improve it, standstill adaptation and forced adaptation.
As much as I am an MB fan, I want to still call them out, that is how they improve their products.
It breaks my heart as an MB fan to see how the company became lately, I definitely do not feel any pleasure complaining about the brand I truly loved. Quite opposite. That said, I am glad to see the improvements in both material, design and software starting with the W214 but there are more that needs to be done.
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...-shifting.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...on-issues.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...-recently.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...nshifting.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/gle-class...on-issues.html
My opinion: Along with problems with the shifting on MB's transmissions in general. the 48V mild hybrid added complexity to the transmission shifting logic which made it worse.
That said, there are ways to improve it, standstill adaptation and forced adaptation.
As much as I am an MB fan, I want to still call them out, that is how they improve their products.
It breaks my heart as an MB fan to see how the company became lately, I definitely do not feel any pleasure complaining about the brand I truly loved. Quite opposite. That said, I am glad to see the improvements in both material, design and software starting with the W214 but there are more that needs to be done.
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Thank you for correcting me. I did a quick/new search, and it looks like newer GLE owners with the 4/6 cylinder engine are also facing this issue as well. I also stumbled across older GLE with similar issue. Force adoption is the key like you said. I think the point is, there is still a much higher chance the L6 engines with mild hybrid will shift just fine, wherein I don't ever recall I drove any W222 or GLS with the V8 engine that seemed to shift even close to what I'd consider (ideal).
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I don't think newer cars have these issue from 0 miles. To me this seems like something most cars start to develop slowly after 10-15K mikes as the transmission components wear out or get out of spec (just my guess, I don't know). I think most of them don't shift probably like a true luxury car from 0 miles, but they only start to shift really harsh after 10-15K before it becomes undeniable when brought to service attention that they can't argue about. Streamliner's 2nd W222 with 5K had same issue but only after a few more thousands of miles after 10K I guess. I had same issue with 2 W22s before. I noticed almost EVERY SINGLE GLS with V8 I test drove had this issue (though I only test drove a few), but not a single GLS 450s with L6 mild hybrid had even a sign of rough downshifting. They were all in the 20-40K miles range.
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I don't think newer cars have these issue from 0 miles. To me this seems like something most cars start to develop slowly after 10-15K mikes as the transmission components wear out or get out of spec (just my guess, I don't know). I think most of them don't shift probably like a true luxury car from 0 miles, but they only start to shift really harsh after 10-15K before it becomes undeniable when brought to service attention that they can't argue about. Streamliner's 2nd W222 with 5K had same issue but only after a few more thousands of miles after 10K I guess. I had same issue with 2 W22s before. I noticed almost EVERY SINGLE GLS with V8 I test drove had this issue (though I only test drove a few), but not a single GLS 450s with L6 mild hybrid had even a sign of rough downshifting. They were all in the 20-40K miles range.
Thread Starter
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From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
I don’t think that GLE you had as a loaner with a smooth transmission was an anomaly. The GLE you mentioned clearly didn’t have the V8 paired with the 9G transmission, which I believe is the main issue. From my experience, GLEs and other models equipped with either the 4-cylinder or the L6 mild-hybrid engines tend to avoid the rough shifting that almost all V8 Mercedes vehicles exhibit. Most L6 owners, myself included, consistently report smooth shifting with the L6 engines; on the other I believe that almost every V8 on the road won't shift as good. Having owned Mbenz cars with both engines, including two GL (GL and GLS) vehicles with the L6, I’ve never encountered the shifting issues that were in comparison very easy to notice in my two W222s with V8. The V8 + 9G configuration in my W222s never shifted like a true luxury car should. Many owners might overlook the rough shifting, but for those who owned or came from a BMW’s experience, it’s hard to ignore how mismatched the V8 feels with Mercedes’ 9G transmission.
Actually this experience was the main reason I’ve chosen to avoid V8 models moving forward, inluding in my recent GLS search (and I posted that even before I found my GLS),,,, it is why I specifically wanted to search for a well-equipped GLS but only the L6 mild-hybrid engine. Unfortunately, in that past, the W222 didn’t offer a mild-hybrid L6, though Mercedes has added mild-hybrid tech into most (if not all) newer models, including the W223 so now it's a no issue. L6 in the W222 never drove that good cause it was missing the mild-hybrid or EQ tech which you can now get in newer models. If I decide to switch my sedan back to Benz, the W223 PHEV would be a strong candidate. But with the i7 available, it’s hard to justify an ICE S-Class unless range is a priority for road trips, which it is for now. Still, a fully-loaded W223 PHEV remains a solid option, if not the only acceptable one for me, given Mbenz failure with their transmissions. If I never had BMWs with proper transmissions, I probably would have digested Mbenz transmissions but it's not the case.
Actually this experience was the main reason I’ve chosen to avoid V8 models moving forward, inluding in my recent GLS search (and I posted that even before I found my GLS),,,, it is why I specifically wanted to search for a well-equipped GLS but only the L6 mild-hybrid engine. Unfortunately, in that past, the W222 didn’t offer a mild-hybrid L6, though Mercedes has added mild-hybrid tech into most (if not all) newer models, including the W223 so now it's a no issue. L6 in the W222 never drove that good cause it was missing the mild-hybrid or EQ tech which you can now get in newer models. If I decide to switch my sedan back to Benz, the W223 PHEV would be a strong candidate. But with the i7 available, it’s hard to justify an ICE S-Class unless range is a priority for road trips, which it is for now. Still, a fully-loaded W223 PHEV remains a solid option, if not the only acceptable one for me, given Mbenz failure with their transmissions. If I never had BMWs with proper transmissions, I probably would have digested Mbenz transmissions but it's not the case.
Thread Starter
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From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
WHY the companies feel a need to produce transmissions that “LEARN” how someone drives is just beyond me. Produce a vehicle that works properly each time, every time and there is no need for it to go to learn anything. Honestly, the automakers—ALL of them—need to stop pushing the tech envelope. It really is out of control.
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WHY the companies feel a need to produce transmissions that “LEARN” how someone drives is just beyond me. Produce a vehicle that works properly each time, every time and there is no need for it to go to learn anything. Honestly, the automakers—ALL of them—need to stop pushing the tech envelope. It really is out of control.
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From: U.S.
Current/Last 5-years:GLS;G70;Alpina B8;X7;Accord. Sold:X7,TeslaS;S560;S550,X5;530e;L.Navigator;LS460
WHY the companies feel a need to produce transmissions that “LEARN” how someone drives is just beyond me. Produce a vehicle that works properly each time, every time and there is no need for it to go to learn anything. Honestly, the automakers—ALL of them—need to stop pushing the tech envelope. It really is out of control.
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From: Cincinnati
2010 E350 4Matic
Not buying that point of view. I will bet there are plenty of cars that don't spend 30 days in the shop in their first 1-4 years. Our Kia Niro EV is an example. It spent a week in the shop the vast majority of which was after it was fixed (2 days) haggling over getting the 12 v battery replacement covered under warranty. Furthermore the point is that manufacturers shouldn't be introducing underdeveloped technology. Mercedes didn't used to. If anything Mercedes used to be conservative in it's technology introduction to insure reliability.
One of the issues is that manufacturers have outsourced so much of their product and suppliers are difficult to manage as they have their own profit agendas.
I will say it is hard to get an appointment in short order if it is still running, which may be part of the desire not to have shop time bookkept against a lemon law action.
One of the issues is that manufacturers have outsourced so much of their product and suppliers are difficult to manage as they have their own profit agendas.
I will say it is hard to get an appointment in short order if it is still running, which may be part of the desire not to have shop time bookkept against a lemon law action.
Last edited by MBNUT1; Oct 27, 2024 at 05:49 PM.
Thread Starter
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From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Question for you, Streamline - (50% humor, 50% serious): can you really convince me how can it be possible now for any new luxury vehicle to be safe from buyback eligibility for any CA residents? With all the tech and complexity packed into new models, it feels like a guarantee that within 1-4 years of ownership, a car will spend at least 30 days in the shop. Owners should be prepared to accept that reality for these advanced machines, right? Yet CA's laws lean so heavily toward buybacks, and way too biased, that it’s nearly impossible for luxury car manufacturers to justify a sustainable business from now on this way. Not poking at you, don't get me wrong, I know you did the right thing, legally, and used the system the right way... but am also certain that even without major issues you've had, once can easily let the car spend 30 days in the shop......
The fact of the matter is that it is a time consuming and sometimes frustrating ordeal. It’s perfect for a retired guy like me, but can be difficult for busy folks to navigate and many out there just won’t even think of going with an attorney. And, let’s face it: the vast majority of consumers just don’t care. If the car drives, if it looks good, they let most other issues slide.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: Corona Del Mar, CA
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Not buying that point of view. I will bet there are plenty of cars that don't spend 30 days in the shop in their first 1-4 years. Our Kia Niro EV is an example. It spent a week in the shop the vast majority of which was after it was fixed (2 days) haggling over getting the 12 v battery replacement covered under warranty. Furthermore the point is that manufacturers shouldn't be introducing underdeveloped technology. Mercedes didn't used to. If anything Mercedes used to be conservative in it's technology introduction to insure reliability.
One of the issues is that manufacturers have outsourced so much of their product and suppliers are difficult to manage as they have their own profit agendas.
I will say it is hard to get an appointment in short order if it is still running, which may be part of the desire not to have shop time bookkept against a lemon law action.
One of the issues is that manufacturers have outsourced so much of their product and suppliers are difficult to manage as they have their own profit agendas.
I will say it is hard to get an appointment in short order if it is still running, which may be part of the desire not to have shop time bookkept against a lemon law action.
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W210 E55, BMW Individual 7
Even though I’ve heard it all before AND lived it, it’s good to read it and to remember. I truly hated my S580. I’m pretty sure my experience was reasonably worse than yours, but it was knowing what the W223 replaced and how GREAT the W222 was that really killed the new car for me. I expected most everything to be better, but most everything was not nearly as good.
On a side note, I have been driving a new X5 loaner for the past week now, as the dealer is replacing the windshield in my I7. A few months ago, I drove a bare bones GLE350 loaner for 40 days as the MB dealer futzed with the transmission in my 2020 S560—what did I say about the W222’s being so great???—and I must say that for me, the GLE was a much better fit. I felt that the ride quality and driving dynamics were better and—steering wheel controls notwithstanding—it was just a nicer experience overall. But then I think that getting a good transmission experience in a current MB seems to be a crap shoot and that the GLE I had might have been—probably was—an anomaly and one can never rely on good ones to stay that way over time.
I am really hoping that MB gets their house in order. Greatness is still within their grasp, I just know it. I believe that heads—including Ola’s—need to roll.
On a side note, I have been driving a new X5 loaner for the past week now, as the dealer is replacing the windshield in my I7. A few months ago, I drove a bare bones GLE350 loaner for 40 days as the MB dealer futzed with the transmission in my 2020 S560—what did I say about the W222’s being so great???
—and I must say that for me, the GLE was a much better fit. I felt that the ride quality and driving dynamics were better and—steering wheel controls notwithstanding—it was just a nicer experience overall. But then I think that getting a good transmission experience in a current MB seems to be a crap shoot and that the GLE I had might have been—probably was—an anomaly and one can never rely on good ones to stay that way over time.I am really hoping that MB gets their house in order. Greatness is still within their grasp, I just know it. I believe that heads—including Ola’s—need to roll.
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AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Not buying that point of view. I will bet there are plenty of cars that don't spend 30 days in the shop in their first 1-4 years. Our Kia Niro EV is an example. It spent a week in the shop the vast majority of which was after it was fixed (2 days) haggling over getting the 12 v battery replacement covered under warranty. Furthermore the point is that manufacturers shouldn't be introducing underdeveloped technology. Mercedes didn't used to. If anything Mercedes used to be conservative in it's technology introduction to insure reliability.
One of the issues is that manufacturers have outsourced so much of their product and suppliers are difficult to manage as they have their own profit agendas.
I will say it is hard to get an appointment in short order if it is still running, which may be part of the desire not to have shop time bookkept against a lemon law action.
One of the issues is that manufacturers have outsourced so much of their product and suppliers are difficult to manage as they have their own profit agendas.
I will say it is hard to get an appointment in short order if it is still running, which may be part of the desire not to have shop time bookkept against a lemon law action.
