Streamliner

Great story: https://www.thecarconnection.com/new...ST_EMAIL_ID%5D

teksurv

Charging on the go is way more annoying than filling up at the gas station. But...charging at home, off peak hours and never having to go the gas station... I'm happy to rent if i need to go on a road trip (I'd rather fly).

Dima

That's nothing, they keep causing fires on ships, here is the latest one:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...rs-2023-07-28/

superswiss

Yeah, second one in 18 months. Wait until this happens in an underground parking structure in a city near you, or an apartment building built on top of a parking structure. While EVs are less likely to catch fire than ICE, when they do, it's a thermal runaway event and for all practical purposes impossible to put out. This Australian bloke makes some good points.

teksurv

Lithium-ion fires are no joke. They can't be "put out" like other fires. That said, you have the same battery in your phone, laptop, etc.

superswiss

That is true, but it comes down to the amount of fuel. A 100kWh battery in a single car is equivalent to about 1500 - 4500 laptops depending on the laptop battery capacity. Multiply that times 500 and that's a gigantic amount of fuel that keeps burning for days.

crabman

Fear mongering over fire seems a stretch in a business that overall is using power which is not green and has acted to increase greenhouse emissions in aggregate. To me, starting at the beginning might be a better idea by first discussing how we're going to build out the green infrastructure that would make it possible. Then you'll have to figure out where the money is coming from; when only the richest countries in the world have the money, but most of the world needs to switch to green(er) power to realize a net carbon loss, that means a massive transfer of wealth beyond any that has occurred in human history. Once you've got a working plan for the grid you need, sourced the money to make it a reality, then it's time to build cars, fire hazards or otherwise.

Or you can do what we've been doing and go down the path of maximum profit now and not even worry about pesky carbon. After all you can just pretend you planted a tree and net carbon goes down, doesn't it?

superswiss

Or we can stop trying to solve car centric problems with car centric solutions. What nobody really wants to talk about is admitting that we need to find an alternative to cars. The American public in particular has been sold on the car dependency by the car lobby. We used to have trains, streetcars etc. in this country, but they were systematically bankrupted in favor of car companies selling personal transport vehicles to the public and now we live in a country where most people have no other way to get around than by car. So we tell everybody if we just replace the internal combustion engine with a battery and electric motors it'll be all good. No it won't. Electric cars don't solve the car problem. Thinking that we can just replace the existing fossil fuel cars with electric cars and keep driving like we always have is a complete illusion.

Dima

Many people in this country including me don't want an alternative to cars as it for many is the only place they can be by themselves and destress. You got family at home, you got coworkers, you got crowds on subway - I prefer tranquility of the car even in the city traffic.

superswiss

Yes, and have you ever taken a step back and thought about why that is? This nation has been conditioned to think this way. You are expected to work yourself to death for big corporations and live in a rat race that you can't win. Live in suburban sprawl that requires you to commute 100s of miles every week in the first place, sold to you as the American dream. There are many ways to destress, but if you can barely even take time off w/o fearing that you are missing out or somebody else is stealing your job then you live your life under constant stress.

The concept that you have to work in order to afford a car so you can get to work is frankly ridiculous. If one can't afford a car in this country, their opportunities are severely limited. What did I read the other day? The average car payment is now around $700. That's not including fuel, insurance and maintenance. You have to spend that in order to get to work to earn money to keep spending on your car. That's frankly insanity. Look we are all car enthusiasts here probably, but personally I don't own a car because I need one to get to work. The issue is most people don't even know what life could be like if we didn't build our cities, infrastructure etc. around cars. American cities are ugly places that you don't really wanna walk around in. Ever been to Europe or Asia where cities are much more built around people? Not everywhere. There are very car centric cities in Europe and elsewhere, too, but have you ever experienced a city that has a car free center and lived within walking distance from your work, so you don't have to play the commuter game every day? Trust me, it's very relaxing to not have to commute in the first place.

teksurv

@superswiss Such a strange conversation. I truly love the twin turbo V8 in your AMG. I am not saying EV over ICE. I simply see why both can co-exist. I would take any car over BART.

Dima

you should move to Boston, they are trying to get rid of car traffic in favor of bikes, walking and metro. Besides, it's as close to European city as you can get and apparently many agree as it's full of Europeans who escape high taxes, low salaries, tiny apartments and lack of well paying jobs especially for the young. On the other hand, it's completely unaffordable with 300 sq feet studios going for over $2000 / month, and sellers get 20 bits for each sale or rental, because we have so many Asians and Europeans trying to leave their beautiful cities, go figure!.

superswiss

Boston is still an American city. Yes, some people think it's the closest to a European city, but it's really not. If you think that, then you have never actually lived in Europe. Boston put its highways that were dissecting the city underground, just to replace them with multilane surface streets that don't make the city any more walkable. Europe's population is nearly 800 million, almost three times that of the USA, so the few Europeans that live in Boston don't exactly represent the larger population.

Besides, I don't need to live in Boston to not be dependent on a car. I have that now. Most of my daily needs and services are within a 15 minute walk or bike ride from my house. I can stroll along the waterfront to grab a coffee, or walk over to one of two grocery stores to grab something real quick, w/o having to make a massive grocery run out of it. I love driving my V8 of course, but I equally love that I can just walk out my front door for a small errand and not have to get into my car just to go buy a gallon of milk, and driving would become much nicer if the roads weren't clogged by everybody trying to get to work etc.

crabman

I spend a lot of time overseas, I'm there now. I completely get what your saying but this isn't something you can fully understand until you live it.

I get up in the morning, take a shower, walk 50 meters to the shop where I'll get a cappuccino then an espresso. I'll read the news, chat with friends, and eventually... It's milk-run time: Have to go by the bakery before the morning bread is gone, stop by the open market to get fruits and vegetables, sometimes fish depending on what they have that day, possibly the butcher, or supermarket.

The supermarket is about as big as 2 American convenience stores like a 7/11. I'll take all those goods home having walked maybe an hour between them all. It goes on from there...

I don't want to bore everyone to tears here; the idea is that life has a different rhythm in the old country and that's obvious enough but what isn't obvious is how it feels to live that life. You can't get that on a two week vacation or a business trip spent at a hotel in increasingly similar large cities. Doesn't matter if you're the type that must see every site or someone who does nothing but lounge on the beach and drink overpriced poorly made cocktails at resorts. You have to live like the locals, with the locals, to really get it.

Most Americans have spent little time overseas and many none at all. Even among those who go over with some regularity it's going to be the minority that has spent much of any time in a foreign place living the way it is done there. It's a hard sell when you're trying to convince people to adopt a way of living that is wholly unfamiliar and would require significant lifestyle changes.

js_cls

Completely agree. I spent half a year in Florence and would spend most weekends in different cities across Europe. Despite being a metropolitan city, it is incredibly walkable. The larger/more populated European cities you can survive easily without a car thanks to superior public transport design, but in Florence you even don't need the bus, walking from one end of the city to the other is easy. The German train system especially impressed me when I visited Munich, but I should have expected nothing less considering its German mentality to be so organized and efficient.

I had a similar routine to you, wake up, go to the local bar for a cappuccino, walk by the river, do some work, and then enjoy the city and its surroundings, taking in the environment, the people, etc. The amount of steps I got there every day honestly benefited my health more than anything.

Being back in the US and my S-Class is nice, but life there just felt so much more simple but still enjoyable, of course I was also in a new environment one that was so new, different, and beautiful, but I could easily see myself continuing life there if my language skills were better and of course had a job, visa, etc. My wife grew up in Frankfurt and I can finally relate to how she lived now. One thing is for sure though, if you're handicapped, Florence definitely is not the most accessible.

The only times I drove was in Como and the Dolomites. There a car is definitely needed, but mainly for traveling outside of the area. That being said, while these little towns were beautiful, they were definitely little. A few family owned restaurants, all closed by 10PM, one main bar where everyone gathered, and one gas station and grocery store. It was weird to imagine living in a place where your nearest McDonald's is over an hour away. Definitely a shift in perspective and what I was use to.

On the contrast, I went to LA last week and immediately thought how could a city so interested in lowering emissions and clearing the road have such an awful public transport system. You need a car there to get around, and then you end up sitting in it so long because its soooo overpopulated with traffic, especially towards Santa Monica. Spent another week in Chicago and it felt more like Europe in terms of getting around at least. Could go pretty much anywhere by bus or train, even the airport has a metro line from the city, and when those didn't work, we ended up cycling throughout the city, and that seems to be a popular option as there were so many cyclists there. That being said, I'm sure the cyclist all disappear come winter.

Anyways, definitely off topic, but thought I'd contribute since I can relate to your posting.

Streamliner

Mass transit in most of the USA is crap, compared to Germany. In L.A., even the busses & light rail that are in service, are virtually unusable, unless you are part of a heavily armed street gang. Our once magnificent, nationwide passenger rail system, which was taken over by the federal government in the 1970’s and named Amtrak, is close to becoming useless, in most parts of the country, with the exception of the Northeast Corridor. They keep cutting routes, reducing schedules and any semblance of what was once reasonably first class service, is long gone. My wife and I had always planned on traveling the country on Amtrak when I retired, but it got bad before the CCP Virus and now after, it’s close to horrible.

superswiss

Yes, the USA currently has about a $200 billion backlog of required investments to get public transportation to the level that others enjoy in the rest of the world. The backlog keeps growing and it's nearly impossible at this point to catch up. The pandemic has made it worse. The little public transportation that existed is now crumbling and facing a fiscal cliff, because the ridership isn't returning. This is going to be a huge problem for the USA. The economy will suffer badly because goods and people can't easily move anymore when cars inevitable will be restricted.

Don't forget, the current car infrastructure is also crumbling. There are a ton of bridges that are technically not safe anymore and need to be rebuilt or they will collapse eventually. Most of you are well aware of the pothole ridden roads in many parts of the USA. It will become increasingly cost prohibitive to keep the current car infrastructure maintained so that you can actually drive w/o needing new wheels and suspension every other year. Most suburbs are technically bankrupt, because they don't actually have the funds to maintain their existing road infrastructure. Once those roads become due for replacement they'll be in big trouble. I don't think many realize the dire situation that the US infrastructure is in. It's sort of been working thus far, but the backlog is building up.

Who here lives in Philadelphia and is/was affected by the recent I-95 collapse? The car isn't of much use if the roads are collapsing or are in such despair that you risk damaging your car just driving around.

Dima

Sure love that lifestyle, we now have the same in Boston with european owned coffee shops and bakeries owned by french and italians and those huge euroepean supermarkets, like Eataly.
What you guys are missing is this: I work for a major international investment bank and know exactly what's going on there both from the lifestyle and economics perspective and it's not all roses.
Even if we don't count Southern Europe where they still have 3 hours lunches even in Milan, they produce very few high paying jobs. People stay in school until mid 30s so the government pays them as there is not much to do upon graduation. Sure those who work are doing ok, 45 days vacation, countless holidays, free this and free that. But almost everything is more expensive, impossible to find any place to live in Paris or London, you have to commute for hours. We have all those tech, biotech companies here and hospitals where so many are from Europe because it's much easier to find a job. Look at MIT, Harvard, BU, BC and so forth here: lots of students paying hundreds of thousands of $ instead of studying for free in Europe. People travel to Boston just to get surgery or other treatment so not to wait in line in Sweden for example as it is all rationized and controlled by the government.
If you're poor it's much better to leave over there of course. Also it depends on what corner and the state of USA we're comparing it to and what your priorities are. In some states people are poorer, in others, they are not In MASS for example we have best schools in the country and free healthcare and plenty of high paying jobs and low crime rate.
But whoever thinks they can just hang out in Florence and effort nice things is sorely mistaken.

Streamliner

Agreed. To hopefully get the thread a bit back on track—and hope that we don’t get shut down again—the whole idea of building charging stations along the Interstates and improving our infrastructure has little chance of succeeding, unless and until LAW AND ORDER are restored to the USA. How long before the bad guys figure out that folks parked at charging stations for extended periods of time—perhaps all alone—are very easy targets?

superswiss

At least those of us who have lived in both places aren't missing anything. Nobody is saying it's all roses. Every place has its challenges. You are focusing on high paying jobs for some reason. In the USA you need a high paying job, because you are pretty much on your own when it comes to saving for retirement and healthcare benefits depend on your job. You lose your job and with that go your healthcare benefits and your chances of a comfortable retirement are shrinking. Unemployment insurance here is practically non-existent, so almost half of the US population is effectively one paycheck away from being homeless. Remember the study they did a few years ago finding that over 40% of Americans couldn't come up with $400 in an emergency. Where are those high paying jobs again? We are getting quite off track, but the older you get the more you realize how the social safety network in Europe is a massive benefit. It's the young and healthy generation that is chasing these high paying jobs, and blowing their money, not realizing that they should have saved for retirement. Yes, salaries are lower in Europe, but retirement is guaranteed and if you lose your job you are not going homeless. There are systems in place to catch those that are down with their luck and help them to become part of the workforce again and pay taxes instead of leaving them rotting on the side of the road.

Dima

Yes there is a safety net that makes you not work and the country not productive, i.e. Norway, people have great educations, but no jobs, government pays for life if you don't work! Great! when was the last time you bought something made in Norway besides fish? France, 35 hours work week, super! No jobs. Germany is producing great products, folks not spending their money. Everyone saves everything, nothing is being bought.
Grease, Spean - nothing to do but hangout in nice weather. Italy south on Milan / Turin, the same.
Yes, 40 % here are poor, perhaps very poor and should be getting help, instead of letting illegals in. But, the advances in technology, medicine and science are mostly in this country because the financial infrastructure is setup correctly. Have you tried to open a startup in Germany?? The bureaucracy and taxes will kill you and nowhere to obtain financing.
Europe used to have great tech / computer companies, almost none left all lost to Asia and America precisely because of "government safety net".
The quasi socialism is not good for business, but is good for some people mostly in government.

superswiss

Interesting you bring up Norway as your first example. Norway produces 20 times more oil per capita than the USA, and instead of the profits going to a few corporations and their executives, it is invested into their people via education and other things, so everybody in Norway benefits from the natural resource that belongs to all people of Norway and not just the 1%. Maybe that brings it back on topic, since Norway's biggest export is car related ;-).

teksurv

Take an EQ out for a weekend. One of two things will happen...You'll hate it, or you'll love it. For some reason, the door handles on EQs work every time

Wolfman

Where to begin and respond to this incorrect information other than saying it is off topic and belongs in that section, not here

Per Streamliners recommendation, please stay on topic. Thanks

Dima

Ok Wolfe is here, so just briefly, this is exactly right, they have a sovereign oil fund that pays people not to work. Your v8 by the way would cost there 3 times as much as in usa in taxes so you guessed it, to pay more to people not to work.