novabenz

IMHO the two main posters on this thread really need to check and see if they still have a set of b*lls.
They've are going back and forth like 12 year old girls over the subject.

c2jones

(Note: Z06 and not ZR1.) There is much controversy here that you do not acknowledge. A party for the GTR program ("Jan") apparently admitted that the Z used a standing start and the GTR used a flying start, which is now said to be common knowledge. Time starting discrepancies have now surfaced (and purportedly been admitted as well.) There was also controversy about wetter conditions and wet tires for one and not the other, etc. I'm promised more on this from those that say they know Jan personally, and I will relay this back here. You can always Google the topic for more. (Be mindful of the dates.)

I think your words suggest different of what you infer was a "trap." Not hardly. But as its been said, if one is looking to impress girls with a car and feels the SL is the way to go, then great, its said to be a girl's car. More power to them. ZR1 buyers are not of that mode. They would have little interest in having girls "cream over berry red interiors."

But this part of this discussion is trivial to me. I would rather place energy on the premise of the thread.

c2jones

Guess you'll be tuning out then? Great. Take care...

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

Read this month's Road And Track. They lapped both cars under the same conditions on the same track and on the same day, and I believe the word they used was "SPANK" when referring to what the GTR did to the Z06. Not to mention the GTR despite all of its tech came out to be cheaper than the Z06.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=6594

This is a US Spec GTR with US Spec tires, and it RUINED the Z06 by 5 seconds on a 2 minute track. That is an eternity.

c2jones

Even if someone completely transferred an entire interior from a Benz to the Corvette with no indication thereof and showed this to you, you would still speak the same of the Corvette interior. Its starts before you even see the car, with preconceived perceptions. But enough of this, if you want to stay on your perch that MB interiors are superior in every way (which has not even been the direct challenge), fine. On that the Corvettes (with the upgraded leather option) are not giving one enough car for their $100K, in this case with ZR1... that is simply preposterous in any logical translation.

If you need better interior, opt for the aftermarket Caravaggio enhancement to ZR1. One then still gets the better pricing for greater performance (than even 65 Black Series) and better interior. Then, guys like you can have your cake and eat it to. See?

c2jones

Like I said, be aware of the dates. The article you reference is old hat. It was covered long ago even in this very thread. There is much more updated feedback from those tests all over the place. If one had a standing start while the other was already in motion (which is said to be the very case, even admittedly from the GTR camp), then that "eternity" is not much at all, and favors the vette massively. Stay tuned.

c2jones

But who says it isn't better than Malibu's? Especially with the upgraded leather package, its worlds better. You state that others are making excuses for resisting statements you make while assuming fact of what you say in the first place. A habit of yours.

I never said that you did not acknowledge those quality (reliability) issues, and I even told you that I developed further respect for you in that you did make such acknowledgment. The point is that you keep inferring that as long as one makes a better interior that mechanical mishaps matter much less. And THIS is the greater discrepancy between us. You imply that mechanical mishaps should be more tolerated just as long it possesses better interiors. This is woefully imbalanced and indicative of your personal persuasion. Now you're throwing Porsche into the mix (as if they were not a luxury car as well with a performance heritage compared to a baseline GM mass-produced product, of all things to compare it to) to suggest one is offering one more for the same $100K. Again, what is more for one may not be more for another.

For the price of ZR1 and what its design intention is for, few can match the overall package, especially in terms of value. Its preference. That's the point. Nothing more.

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

The article is from this month man. It's from the May issue. Unless you're talking to us from some time warp in the future, these numbers are far from old hat.

Here's a quote from a GM board, one of your ilk:
If you even try to debunk that I'm going to ram my head through my Bloomberg.

c2jones

Then get ready. Because you're too caught up in that article and ignoring everything else, by your own pet desire at this point. Those mags come about a month early, in case you somehow missed that fact. You seem to have an emotional interest in the GTR and if that's the case, no degree of counterpoint will get through to you. Your mind is already made up. But I have more coming.

c2jones

Jury is still out here. Simply because you say one is showing improvement and state that the other isn't, is no foundation for anything. Certainly this is not universally accepted as stated. And again, a luxury automaker gouging people despite miserable service records should have never been the case in the first place. Your use of "that was the past but its getting better" amounts to zero. It is neither demonstrable fact nor altering of the point. (The Pope no longer supports the ***** either, but this in no way offsets the admitted fact that once he did in the past.) Just making a point about overlooking the past; in this case, and again, that jury is still out.

I said Germans, not specifically MB. And (as noted previously in this thread) Ferrari and others have licensed no MB technology while they have licensed that of Corvette. (You said you read the whole thread - then surely you have seen my comments in this regard covering all this.)

There is not one single example of what you say. Aimless accusations (again).

Not boasting, just making a statement about rarity, the collectible factor, and awards (within its own class, silly!) that would offer it distinction. That was just one of the aspects people were considering should they elect between the two cars. While most of us never said the cars were in the same class nor should be compared (unless you factor SL65 BS), the person that originated this thread and many since were contemplating between the two for their own reasons. Not mine or yours; theirs.

As I stated earlier in this thread, many see a novelty with the ZR1 as a collectible. This naturally will help its added value well into the future. Barrett Jackson Auctions states Corvette is king of the collectibles in volume and results. ZR1 will especially be the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymR4w...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku9e5...eature=related

I'll use your final statement to address your own previous statement... Precisely...it goes both ways.

Yeah, MB's quality (which you finally admit includes reliability) went up for all that money... They have been woeful. But according to you, that's "getting better," and this should suffice. After all, their problems of just a few years ago (and in truth could be little changed to date...) are Millions and millions and millions of years ago and one must stay current. Uh, yeah. That's it.

One is a lightweight advanced supercar. The other is not. And "better" is only relative to the individual.

All cars have faults from time to time. And everything IS relative, of course. Paying twice as much for twice the time in the shop is not more desirable than another's choice to have less plush interiors while having more dependability overall. Again, your habit of your preference as fact.

Like advanced handmade composites panels that 65 BS is now duplicated. Like HUD, and brakes that are standard on Veyron, 599, etc., and other components licensed by Ferrari and others. And like advanced aluminum framework that exceeds safety standards even without the outer panels on it. There's more too. (I covered all this in earlier postings here - the ones you read.)

I said disappointing, not so much terrible, and this was on reviews of the models over the last few years. If this gets better, great. It certainly should for that price. On your 'Corvette is not improving while SL's troubles are a thing of the archaic past' angle, well, we shall see. On the latter, I hope you're right.

I never said GM had no flaws. Please. Talk about senility and bloated distortions. I even told you that I have also been part of discussions on some of those flaws about GM to where some thought I was a MB loyalist. Imagine how they'd see you.) If you ran MB, you might disconnect the complaint lines and tell everyone to get over it and just pucker up and pay.. you'd tell them that their current car with current issues is part of the archaeological past and all their troubles should be overlooked. But the Daimler-Benz people would just love you.... like the Nuremberg rallies.

See? MB's issues have just miraculously went away... because you said so. And the Corvette still has all these issues because you said so. We're talking about millions of years old dated matters (on cars that are STILL on the road with payments STILL being made upon them) because, you guessed it, you said so. Even if things are bettering for MB, to relegate everything to the distant past is ludicrous.

Nonsense. If GM truly wanted to wrap your delicate rump in the world's finest leather and give you dashboards you could lick clean they easily could. Its not their market. You connect the Corvettes body panels as cheap while overlooking the actual costs of the materials going into these cars comparatively. (I presented specifics on this [steel vs. composites] in those earlier posts you say you read.)

Funny, you were just saying above that it had not. But you're not the one forgetting what they've written previously.

Again, funny, you had just said above that..."Overall quality encompasses all of these things, build quality and reliability."

Precisely. I'll use your words again to counter your own words, well, again.

You are all the things you impose upon others and worse. Honestly.

Yeah, not breaking down isn't important whatsoever.

Only the latter is true.

The Corvette is not a luxury car and it should not be expected to place you in your plush interior utopia to please you. As for ZR1 and the upgraded interior option (built by the same people who build interiors on MB, Aston, Veyron and others), its more than adequate especially for what gets everyone for that price. It offers advanced technology (that SL65 BS is just now duplicating) and that others are sharing and or licensing technology from, all for its very reasonable price. If one wants more in an interior, there's always Caravaggio as I mentioned (with picture) earlier, all for under the price of 65, especially 65 BS. This does not mean that I have low appreciation for the 65 - nothing could be further from the truth - its only that quality (reliability) must come back to justify its pricing and that others makes, like ZR1, have their redeeming points as well.

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

You've brought nothing to the table so far except conjecture and your half-witted attempts at polling people you know in order to find support for your arguments. You've brought exactly zero data to the table, have no point of reference, and continue to rant endlessly to an audience that has by and large condemned what you've been saying.

As far as my own emotions go, you can check my history here and see that I am as impartial as it gets. I drive an M5 and I'm accepted here by my AMG peers. I have a Supra that shoots enough fire to have a cookout for all of our east coast members. I've also had a good amount of seat time in a C6 Z06 and even more time in a Lingenfelter C5. I know my CARS, not just one marque and I will eternally call a spade a spade.

One thing I do know is that skidpad numbers do not lie. Slalom numbers do not lie, and any way you try to manipulate the numbers coming from virtually every car reviewer out there, the fact still stands that the Z06 has been unseated as the king of the trackday cars according to virtually every media source available, and the soon-to-be ZR-1 isn't going to fare much better against the V-Spec except in a straight line.

P.S.- Thanks for shouting me out in your 'Vette forum.

c2jones

I told you to stay tuned. I am getting some things together. I never said you should settle for what I placed, only that there is more to this and that I will bring it forth, which I will, shortly. Surely you can compose yourself and not cast digs unnecessarily.

I am disappointed in you lowering yourself to such measures. I had hoped for more from you.

And if condemnation ruled the day and accuracy was limited to who was agreed with us in these forums, then everyone, including you, would find reason succumbing to mob rules. Copernicus, Bruno and Galileo were condemned, too. The masses are asses. Nothing redeeming in that. I prefer courage and aptitude, balance and composure to childish attacks and romper room antics.

And as far as some here, their critiques are of little matter to me and even enhance me in some way. If mentalities like that are the measuring stick, then I'm just fine where I'm at. Like rabid dogs, the mob rules by gang warfare. This does not make them right and the immaturity always takes center stage.

We should be able to interact and share perspectives and gain from this without the antics. This thread is supposed to be about a totally different topic than the GTR. But, lacking a true MB competitor for the ZR1, GTR comes into the mix here, like a fever that's running rampant everywhere.

I merely said that there was more to the story than that article and that remains so. Gathering things now.

ItalianStallion

I'm glad to see Nissan is doing it right with this car...wow

When I got the Z06, I got it for a whollllle bunch of reasons.
1) Price: I got it for $8,000 under sticker.
2) Looks: The thing looks like the batmobile and I love how sinister and exotic it is. The widebody on the Z06 is pretty menacing.
3) 7 Liters: Once again, just badass. A 427 V8 thundering down the highway does it for me.
4) Moddability: Believe it or not, the Z06 in it's n/a form can be modded into a complete street animal.
5) Chicas: Girls dig it. It definitely gets their approval.
6) Fellas: Guys are jealous as hell and idolize me.
7) Manual: I want to own a manual transmission car at least once in my life.
8) Raw: It was a pretty big contrast from my old Mercedes. I wanted something pretty hardcore that I could beatup day and night. I could've gotten an AMG or a used M6...but this thing is an experience.
9) Drivability: Not gonna lie, this thing is much softer and civil than I expected. I knew I needed a car that I could drive anywhere, but my expectations were greatly exceeded. This thing is just about as livable as an SL.
10) It's so me...

With all that said, maybe once I get this out of my system I'll go for a Maz GranTurismo...or if I'm still obsessed with speed (yeah, that's a definite yes) then I'll get a used 997TT and turbo swap it or I'll get the GT-R V-spec and create a Skyline that Paul Walker would be proud of.

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

I love 'Vettes man, don't get me wrong, you don't need to justify your purchase to me. Just don't boost the poor thing, cylinder walls are far too thin. Head/cams and some additional breathing mods and you'll be as fast as you should be on the street.

And C2, I could give two *****s in a sewer whether or not you're disappointed. Half of what you type harkens to rhetoric from HBO's John Adams. There's no need to speak like a colonial here in order for people to think you're smart. Smart people back things up with data and facts, still waiting for something concrete from you.

ItalianStallion

Yup, somebody knows their stuff . Boost makes no sense on the LS7. Gotta go way low or boom. We'll see what happens. I'm pretty happy with the car as is.

Sorry for de-railing this thread. c2jones and germancarfan, continue your essays.

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

We need an admin to come in, read the thread, and grade everyone. Hope I make it over the bell curve. Too bad C2 isn't citing his sources.

Edit: Nope, C2 is busy over on his 'Vette forum looking for ways to deflate my factual argument about the GTR's performance. Apparently I'm threatening the GM bubble they live in.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...p?p=1565247408

ItalianStallion

What's his issue? Of course the interior of a Vette isn't going to measure up to an MB or BMW...I don't think any Vette owner would argue that! The quality is excellent for such a cheap sports car though, but it should not be compared to an SL and it never was meant to...

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

I dunno man I don't think it's that far out of the realm of possibility that an American muscle car can be matched or even eclipsed by a Japanese car chock full of gadgetry from the best minds in the world, yet somehow he seems intent on debunking the tsunami of data that backs up my statements.

c2jones

That's a good one. The Bell Curve. Had not heard that in a while. That's clever.

I'm getting so many PM's that I trying to decipher what to use. As I had stated earlier, apparently there is great controversy about the flying starts (of the Nissan) compared to the standing starts of the Corvettes, as well as other factors. As to eliminate commentary to what is more credible, I'm simply sorting through them. No big deal there. There is no grand conspiracy or nothing. I just said that the jury is still out here as both makes claim they are developing the cars, not necessarily making a case about the best speeds.

There are other tests due soon, but I'm looking to post an excerpt about the testing driver's comments on the day. The Corvettes drivers do confirm that the Nissans used flying starts. I'm not bashing anything here.

Not at all. You have me wrong, honestly. I was just looking for someone to link me the most updated feedback regarding that standing starts versus flying starts controversy, in the simple interest of time. That's all. Regarding GM empire, I have been a member here longer than you have. I have owned many MB's and not one Corvette. (Though I am looking to get on the ZR1 list.) I am a MBCA member of many years. I just can appreciate all makes for their own direction and innovation. (Read my postings here.)

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

If you have any evidence about these flying starts on the 'ring then I'll listen, but the fact is that both cars were given a standing start in R&T's test and the numbers are the numbers are the numbers.

Are you referring to the 'Ring times or to R&T's times. It would make absolutely no sense, and be absolutley outrageous if a publication were to do that in a test.



Yeah, me too.

c2jones

The issue was whether the ZR1 will be worth the $100K all things considered. Some here feel that the ZR1 interior, even with the same updated leather package performed by the same vendor as MB, Maybach, Veyron and others, still falls short and that Corvette, including ZR1 has "cheaop" interiors no better than a Malibu.

I disagreed with this notion. Corvette interiors may not be that of MB, but MB is a luxury car and more is expected of it, naturally. Still, to many Corvette owners, their interiors are quite fine with them and they have no misgivings with it. This is their rightful choice. Regarding ZR1, the package is quite extensive for what one gets for the price. Advanced composites handmade (panels, engines) and technology mirrored and licensed from makes costing many times as much. I have relayed all this here.

Finally, if one requires an upgraded interior, Caravaggio will be quick to accommodate, and the total price will still be less than the SL65 (and more fittingly Black Series) for which this thread was originated about.

Few here regard the two cars in the same market, but if one is choosing between them for whatever their reasons are, this came of discussion here. (This GTR thing is well off the topic.) The focus became quality and fit and finish, and reliability and value.

I know its a lengthy read, but all this was covered here and a simple review will illustrate this.

c2jones

NOTE: Apologies to everyone for the

Background:

Corvette drivers Jan Magnussen and Jonny O'Connell reported their testing experiences at Nürburgring. The differential in starts is surfacing in several places; people close to this situation are saying this. I am not claiming this is substantiated, only that there is some controversy and confirmation has come from some of those same magazine sources. (More to come on this.)

ZR1 test-Wet track, engineer driving with a passenger and a standing start all the way to the finish line. GM always does a standing start.

Excerpt:

"Mr. Shoemacker who runs the Ring told GM this is how it's done. When the calibrations are complete, you will see full laps run at race pace. That's when Jan or Johnny O will start lapping.

The Z06 was also done this way (after the original Jan fast lap). There are now export rear shocks for Europe. Don't be surprised to see Jan or Johnny O give the Z06 another try. The 7:42 was done from a standing start (I know this for a 100% fact).

The fact that Nissan decided to use a flying start was done on their own accord. If Jan or Johnny 0 tries to improve on the 7:42, it will be done from a standing start, then they might just do a lap with a flying start just to prove the Z06 is faster around the ring than the GT-R’s 7:38.

One more thing, if you look at the weather for the last 2 weeks they would have been lucky to get 2 or 3 days of dry track. Next week doesn’t look good either, but if it is, believe me, the engineers will be working hard to complete the car in preparation for Jan or Johnny.

My guess, you will see times in the low 7:30’s or high 7:20’s JMO. Whether GM decides to use a standing start (common practice) or a flying stare (Nissan practice) will remained to be seen. But because of all the controversy from the Z06 lap times, I’ll bet they will be crystal clear with proof on how the lap was run."

Sport Auto lap time comparisons:

Ferrari F430 F1: 7:55 seconds (supertest)
Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano: 7:47 seconds (supertest)
Porsche 997 911 Turbo : 7:54 seconds (supertest)
Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06: 7:49 seconds (supertest)
Ford GT:7:52 seconds (supertest)
Nissan GTR: 7:50 seconds (Fahrberichte)

In German, but the numbers work:

http://www.sportauto-online.de/test_...8540_14469.hbs

There are pictures that show the difference. (They are rather big, but I will see about posting them here. They're from the GTR thread in a Corvette Forum.) Also, its been said that Car and Driver editor Larry Webster confirmed a standing start full lap is indeed what he had been told by GM. And flying start by Nissan.

Some propose that Nissan followed the Sport Auto procedure because it nets them a better time. Nissan went around to different publications and asked for the specifics of how they ran their testing then in effect sought to test to match. Road and Track bragged in a recent issue that Nissan asked them for the specific measurements of their slalom test. As has been noted in a number of media outlets, Sport Auto's test driver was a guest at Nissan's lapping sessions. The resulting video was done to match Sport Auto's testing procedure which necessarily involves flying start partial laps because Sport Auto cannot afford to routinely close the track for testing. On public days the driving rules are strict and must be adhered to. (Again, more on this soon.)

The Ring. yet, inevitably, the mags will do subsequent follow ups.

c2jones

Another excerpt:

"GM does a standing atart as standard practice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOtAouKf_A0

GM standing start Cobalt SS with Heinricy driving.

GTR does indeed do a FLYING start from the VIDEO:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uGe_fyhQazg

On the GTR video, look at where the clock stops for the 7:38 time. Now go back to the start of the video from approximately 1 or 1:01 to 1:06 or 1:07 would be the time to add that skipped portion of track back. How much time did the GTR save by not running the pit stretch? No need to wonder, look at the VIDEO. Check the gap from 1:01 - 1:07. To compare it to Jan's one can at least reason that the Z06 should at least be able to make that section of the run just as quickly.

The GTR was timed with a rolling start that ended about 100 feet from where it began. Time starts right before they dip in the first left hander and end right after laps last right hand turn, leaving the whole Tier13 out of the measurement! That is 6-7 sec. difference compared to measure start and stop from the same spot.

Note the time taken to cover the distance from the video time 1:01 to 1:07. Use the blue wall on the right for reference as it appears during that time. That is the vehicle's run up to the start which occurs at 1:07 at the end of that short stretch of road. If you watch the video you will note something interesting. After the car exits the pits 1:01 it blasts down to the timing traps. This takes it approximately five seconds to camera freeze at 1:06. For reference, note the blue portion of the wall to the right of the car from 1:01-1:06. If you watch closely, the car really trips the trap at 1:07 because at 1:06 it hasn't actually reached the lights.

Now fast forward to the end of the video and watch for the video freeze where they put up the 7:38 time on screen, it's at 8:49 on the video. You would think that would be back at the end of that short stretch which is where they started. But if you look to the right you will see that the blue wall has, again, only just started. The video does not end at the 1:07 start point but at the 1:01 run up to the start point. Yes the GTR started in one place and then finished in another!

At the end of the run they stop the clock not back at the timing traps which are at the end of that stretch marked by the blue portion of the wall on the right at 1:01 - 1:06 but the instant the car hits the beginning of that short stretch 8:48. Did the video stop with the freeze frame 7:38:54 before they got into the timing light?

They start time just before left hander at Tier13, and end time, just after last right hander back into Tier13, taking out 400-500 feet. They had speed going into the start timer!!

Jan`s drive @ 7.42 is even more impressive! What if the Z had Sport Cups? According to Walter Rohrl, Porsche saw an eight second improvement from 7:50 to 7:42 from standard tires to the sport tires with a 997 Turbo at the Ring. If the same improvement was noted on a Z that would imply a 7:35 lap!

The hydroforming technique which gave the Corvette its singular strength was investigated by no less than Boeing which journeyed to the Corvette plant to witness it themselves and inquire as to how they could adapt the technique as used in the Z06/ZR1 for the assembly of aircraft."

SL2003driver

C2 is really into this stuff. I'm waiting for the facts, but still who cares. most of us buy what we like and then buy somemore just to own everything once.

DannyM383

c2 loves his vette lets leave it at that i tried arguing earlier he said something about MB build quality being bad and then i asked why he owned one then, everyone is entitles to their own opinion, if you ask me, i love chevy and their build quality so much that i ended up buying these...the corvette may be a rocketship in a straightline but thats about it Ill be an MB'er for life theyre the kings of the road.....Call me a snob but an MB has status that a corvette will never have