Peter_02AMG

I had the Kleemann stage 2 installed in my 02 E55 about 3 week ago. Since I picked it up and drove some 200 miles home I didn't notice any power lost. Still felt fast like the first day I pick it up. It drive normal with some rough idle. At low speed ~5mph parkinglot spd it surge, jurk back and forward alot. sometime goes away. They told me that was normal for the computer to adapt. but hasn't gone away as of today.

But other than that it feel the same the day I pick it up fromt eh installer. But the dyno meter say it lost over 70 whp.

Wasn't making the HP expected. Went to a different dyno meter. HP was about the same and Tq is way up.

Dynojet 248C Baseline 302whp/311Tq. S/C make 348whp/349wtq
Mustang dyno make 362whp/434wtq S/C make 5.5 - 6 psi boost.


When they install the S/C they did replace the MAF. Charge me almost $400.
Car felt congested, not enough air coming it so I replace the the air filter with a K&N. It open the engine air way alittle and I feel the car Tq & power gain. I only have the K&N in there for one day than got a dyno the next day.

Two different dyno meter different day, Something is not right here. We swap out mass air insert while on the Mustang dyno and make several run with new sensor it make no different. It ran richer.

I haven't notice anything different in power since I got the S/C put in, only on the dyno meter it not making what it support to make.

COuld the MAF sensor went bad before I gotten the car back
Why it didn't make any diffferent with new mass air sensor?
Boost drop as the rpm went up.

Can someone please help me diagnose this power lost. $16 grand for a 60whp increase seen a little ridiculous.
people who install it not to helpful, they don't want to step up and help me. They still think the mass air sensor is bad due to the K&N filter and the dyno shops don't know what they are doing, I'm tired of dealing with them *******!

I also post this tread in the W211 E55 section hoping someone know what going on.

thanks you all in advance!!

SaMaS

Try to contact Ted he knows alot maybe he can help you hope best for you

Eurosport

well the basics first,
you said you just installed K&N's
they come intentionally overoiled from the factory, right outta the box, you have to wipe them really good first before installing.
if that wasn't done and some oil got on the new MAF, then .....

i would take the MAF out and clean it with an electronics cleaner spray, or an actual qtip with rubbing alcohol on the sensor

then disconnect battery for half hour to reset values...

are you getting any codes at all?

ok basics out of the way, dyno # are just that, you can't compare numbers from one dyno machine to another.

of course assuming that the installer did a perfect job...

Peter_02AMG

no CEL what so ever. MAF was replaced during the installation (3 week ago) We even put in a new mass air sensor insert during the Mustang dyno run and seen no changes in HP.

Tq seen normal @ 434wtq but only make 362whp

Boost drop off as rpm goes up.

will electronics cleaner spray damage the sensor???

thanks

JamE55

Told you before, you're not suppose to use that K&N filter since those have oil. That might be part of the problem.

Peter_02AMG

You did told me so

I only see the HP lost on the dyno. Didn't notice power lost during the whole time I had the car.

I put a new MAS insert in while on the Mustang dyno and it didn't make any different. That new one can't be bad too..

Mfte55black

Reading about your problems Peter....I recall my 1997 BMW 528i sedan I bought new back in '96....

A few months after I owned it, I installed a K&N air filter in it and it set off many of my o2x sensors...not once or twice...but 13 consecutive times!

I had '13 separate visits' to the BMW service department over a period of two months or less...even though they threw away my K&N filter the first time they saw it in there....and scolded me for putting it in...they kept repairing my car "under factory warranty"....

The ox sensor problems never went away however....so I ended up trading in the car with only 8000 miles on it...and losing over $5000 grand!!! Those crazy K&N filters are full of oil that really screws up the Bosch sensors on these fussy German cars!

I am not sure if the K&N is causing your car to go whacky on you or not....but I am certain I'd be over at the place screaming at somebody that just installed your Kleeman S/C for $16 grand and are not willing to help you with your new problems!!!!

Vrodman

So forgive my not being up on some of the lingo here. Is the Kleeman stage 2 the same thing as the Kleeman M113 supercharger? The one that they claim will raise W210 E55 hp to 500? Are these things reliable? Are they smog legal (CA)? And the most important question of all is: How Much Do They Cost? Last time I priced an aftermarket supercharger for my 2000 was around 2001. At that time they wanted like 30 grand or some nonsense for an additional 60 hp. I assume this Kleeman deal makes more sense.

Thanks

Eurosport

yes, yes, yes, yes
cost 11k ish, 1k ish for ecu
labor for install should be 1.5k (average from all installs i've ever heard)
or diy it's possible

they used to cost a lot more, price went down from 15kish to 11kish when w211 e55 arrived on the scene

Ted Baldwin

.........I don't know where to start.

.........I feel VERY VERY VERY STRONGLY. Repeat EXTREMELY STRONGLY!!! that those of us in the Mercedes benz community are getting a very raw deal with engine modificayions and it is not just about cost.

..........I have been saying for a long time these modifications need to be done at a performance shop. At minimum the shop should have a star diagnosis program and a dyno machine. Your car should have pre and multiples of post modification dynos. Your car needs to be properly tuned after any modification. Installing a supercharger in in a car is not like installing brake pads. NO, your car should not be jerking. THE CAR NEEDS TO BE PROPERLY TUNED!!!!!!!!!!

......what you are experiencing where the installation guy blames the dyno guy is exactly what happens in Atlanta now. The few places that intall Kleemann s/c's do not have dynos. The moment you pick up your car, you are on your own. One mechanic will blame the other and in the meantime you are left holding the bag. Even the STI shops have dynos. Somehow MB tuners and vendors think that MB owners are just stupid people with large bank accounts. You will not find even an STI performance shop without a dyno.

.......The 360WHP you are making is probably not that much less than you are going to make. The most powerful Kleemann s/c's were the very first ones they introduced in 2001 into the US market. Those had the flaw of having mechanical water pumps that were prone to fail. The next generation s/c's had electric water pumps. I don't exactly why, but they made less power. The 550HP gain first of all was bogus even for the verr first s/c's but for the subsequent s/c, 550HP was TOTALLY OUT OF THE QUESTION. Then came the latest group of s/c's that make even less HP. As it stands now about 380 or so HP to the wheels is probably what one should reasonably expect from a Kleemann s/c without headers, exhaust, and camshafts and smaller s/c pulley. Before the latest group of s/c's one could expect about 400HP to the wheels. The very first ones that came out in 2001 made about 420WHP. These are generalizations based on dyno's I have seen.

.........K&N filters can kill your MAF, but you have no clue what is wrong with the car. Your simple OBD2 scanner is not what you use to tune the car. You are now left holding the bag because you can no longer go to the dealer and the shop that did your install is not a performance shop and cannot tune your car properly. I have been there.

Ted

Peter_02AMG

you are absolutely right, the installer have no idea what type of power the car make, they have no dynometer to tune the car. They only install the part. If I didn't get my car dyno I wouldn't know there was HP missing.

They told me the Stg 2 kit make ~550 Hp at 5800 rpm & ~525 lb/ft from 2000 rpm. i don't think so! i just want a 500hp car that Kleemann claim there Kit make. I'm not even close to that number.


Now they are pointing finger at the K&N filter messing up the MAF sensor. I did remove the K&N and put a new Mass air sensor in to redyno it and it make no different.

Now they are pointing finger at the dyno shops for not know what they are doing. THey say the dynometer might be out of calibration or the type of cooling fan they use. they ask me how many fan and what size fan the dyno shop using. WHat the Hell that have to do with my HP lost!

I have done everything within my wallet to prove to them that it not the MAF sensor or the dyno shops incompetent. $150 per hr on the dyno the bill add up quick. These dyno shop are very well reputable. Carb connection tune all type of car Viper, Z06, STI, Seleen S/C mustang, Supra TT to name a fews you name it they tune it. And Dyno authority owned by FRAME (Foreign Ato Mechanical Engineers) tune & specializing in Mercedes & BMW. They are tuning a TT Lotus right now, and they dyno a Ferrari ENZO at one time. They think they are very competent on what they are doing.

The bottom line is Kleemann and Matrix don't want to admit something they did or design was wrong or do anything about it to correct it. They just want to point finger and now i'm stuck holding the bag.

maxwerks

Peter, I am so sorry to hear of all of this , this is truly pathetic, specially for that kind of money! Was the installer on Kleemann's list of approved installers? If memory serves. when I spoke with them last they had a list of people they approve to install their products, if it is the case, I would INSIST that Kleemann interject and do what is needed to fix the problem and insure that you get the proper attention . Their product is not cheap and if I remember you paid quite a bit for the installation, the car should Dyno at least the same as their bottom line specs. I do remember when I spoke with them that they said NO K&N, and they did explain why. Still thats no reason to leave you holding the bag after that kind of investment , and not have the car RUN & DYNO the way it should. If the damage by the oil from the K&N is still there and the new MAF didnt fix it, then the mechanic should suggest some flushing for the intake , I dont think that the oil could have gone any further than the intake, run a couple of tanks through , reclean the new MAF and re-dyno all...I cant believe that the K&N could have done any permanent
damage that cant be fixed! Keep us posted and best of luck!
Max

Peter_02AMG

I Spend 3hr on the Mustang dyno yesterday. they found that the S/C belt might be slipping at high RPM that why the boost fluctuate and drop off. The belt only griping part of the S/C pulley and should grip at least half the pulley and and the belt is does not sit flat on the guide pulley (see picture) Belt show sign of wear already. The white tread like fiber is coming out from inside teh belt threw the end not contacting the guide pulley and the oppersite side of the pully show sign of strect mark only on the non contact side.

They suggest a pinch pulley to pull the belt down so it at least have more grip on the S/C pulley. They show me a Mustang cobra S/C pulley system and the belt wrap the S/C pulley like a U shape not like the Kleemann.

SO right now i think it the S/C belt slipping at high RPM.

Ted Baldwin

.........your pulley configuration is not different from anyone else's with a Kleemann s/c. There is very little contact between the s/c pulley and the belt. There is usually some mild degree of belt slippage which is common and does not really rub that much power. With a smaller s/c pulley, you'll get even more belt slippage, enough to shread your belt. A belt wrap kit is a good idea. No one makes a belt wrap kit for the Kleemann s/c system. Before you spend more big bucks, I honestlty think that your car first needs to be properly tuned. I am not sure how to acheieve this in your particular situation. Your least expensive option might actually be to have car shipped to Colorado and have it tuned. It will cost you less on the long run. I deally, your local Kleemann shop should dyno your car and tune it with the dyno results. They may need to make some further ECU changes from Kleemann, you may need more fual, you may or may not need larger injectors, if your pulleys are not aligned, then they need to be aligned to prevent belt shreading etc. I really think that so called Mb tuners without dyno machines should be reading this thread. it is not enough to simply install performance parts and hand the car over to the owner. Any robot can do that.

Ted

Tacjam

After Paying 4 grand for the supercharger install, I would surely hope this shop would stand by it's work. This problem is the result of the Supercharger, I know everyone is yelling K&N but I don't think you were having these problems before you took the car in? If they are saying it's oil, you should have evidence of oil at the intake....have you contacted the shop that installed it? If the supercharger belt is showing signs of wear then it wasn't installed correctly. If they don't help you, make sure you post who did the work for you. When I get my Kleeman...I'll know not to mess with those guys. I might just set up something with Kleeman in Colorado and drive the car down their. I'm finding it hard to believe a Kleeman stage II system is only giving you 48-60hp. That's $250-$312 per hp! Keep us informed.

Peter_02AMG

These are the questions they base the power lost on, why does these question matter if I dyno it before and after at the same place. I was expecting to see a big gap in HP changes. These dyno tunning shop are competent enough to figured this out to get the best number.

#1
Were these dyno runs you’ve sent done in 3rd gear?

#2
Were these dyno runs done with both ESP on and off?

#3
How much time did they let the car cool down between dyno runs?

#4
We need pictures of the fans used at CarbConn and FAME to know if the car was getting proper airflow/cooling. Inadequate fans will produce low numbers.

#5
How long ago was CarbConn’s and FAME’s air-fuel meter calibrated? What brand is it?

(The afr readings from CarbConn to FAME vary greatly so someone could have a mis-calibrated sensor. Determining this will help with the data presented).

#6
Why was CarbConn’s boost reading 1.9psi stock and 8.45psi w/ the Kleemann kit?

From what you’ve stated the car is making 5.5psi so it’s making proper boost. Depending on what gear they’re dynoing in, boost may fall off.

Ted Baldwin

............how the car is dynoed does matter. The point is the Kleemann installer should freaking dyno the car himself!!!!!!!!!! It is a very common tactic for one mechanic to blame the other and in the meantime you, the car owner is the one screwed. No self respecting Mustang tuner will place a supercharger in a Ford Mustang and fail to perform a dyno. Mb tuners are perfectly happy to hand the car back to you, without dyno, without tuning...... because they think you have a big enough wallet to deal with the consequences.

........as a separate matter, with the new s/c's 500-550HP from what I have gathered is out of the question. Still your car needs to be properly tuned to maximize the power and make sure it is safe.

Ted

Vrodman

Just for clarification, is the "$11k-ish" you mentioned US dollars or Euros? I only ask because I saw a pricing sheet on Kleemann's website and prices were in euros.

Thanks

Eurosport

in US is 11k us dollars, thank goodness...

Quadcammer

Ted, while a dyno is a good tuning tool, one does not need a dyno to properly tune an SC vehicle. My supercharged mustang cobra makes 700rwhp on pump gas from 283ci, and it was tuned on the street by one of the best tuners in the country. As long as you datalog timing advance, a/f, IAT, voltage, pressure drop across the injector, etc, you can properly tune a car on the street. In fact, since a dyno doesn't load the car as it would be loaded on the street, a dynotuned car might drift lean once you get it on the street. This is especially the case on turbo cars.

To the OP. You should not be getting belt fray. That indicates a misaligned pulley, not belt slip. Trust me, i've dealt with a 20psi blown mustang for 4 years, and it really depends on how straight the pullies are. They can not be off my thousands of an inch. I went through about 4 belts before getting this right.

fwiw, the surging you are getting could be due to egr activity, a misadjusted bypass, or some sort of timing snafu. Oh, and your boost loss could also be due to a leaking bypass.

Ted Baldwin

.....not really sure what your point is. Saying that his car should be properly tuned n dyno has nothing to do with saying that the car cannot be properly tuned on the street. With all due respect, your mustang does not have CANBUS. Tuning a mercedes newer than 2001 really requires that you a Star diagnosis computer. This is because of all the different modules that communicate via CANBUS. WE both agree that his car needs to be properly tuned. Unfortunately with a Merceds, you need a Star diagnosis computer. You can tune it on a dyno with star or tune it on the street with star. That part is irrelevant. You cannot even get most of these so called MB tuners/vendors to even test drive your car after they finish working on it. Expecting them to drive around on the street with your car and a computer as they tune it is out of the question. If they had an in house dyno, they could at least tune it on the dyno. I have seen tuners for STI's, Mustangs, Supra's etc come to the drag strip with their customers's cars and tune them at the dragstrip. With MB vendors and tuners, they will rather die first before they do that. It is a shame. It is just not the same level of service.

..........Your post highlights part of the problem. You have listed a bunch things including EGR malfunction that could be wroong with his car. everyone comes and lists addtional things they think could be wrong based on their experiences with their own cars, BMW's mustangs, STI's and even some MB's. Everyone means well. But I can tell you, having been this situation before, it only adds to the confusion.............and the incredible waste of money that results if you start chasing what everyone says. THE CAR NEEDS TO BE TUNED BY THE THE APPARENT IDIOT THAT INSTALLED THE SUPERCHARGER AND HANDED THECAR BACK TO HIM, AS IF HE HAD JUST INSTALLED BRAKE PADS.

Ted

jeff.bisonett

I was under the impression that the kit was supposed to be 0.5 bar boost http://www.kleemann.dk/site/Main/per...cts/kompressor, i.e. 7.25 psi, not 5.5 psi. That would explain some of the lost power. As others have mentioned, Kleemann's claimed numbers are inflated.

Quadcammer

ted, I agree the car needs to be properly tuned. Your post however just made it seem as though a dyno was the ONLY way to properly tune a vehicle.

P.S., an internal combustion engine doesn't care what emblem is on the hood. All it knows is ignition timing, intake temps, coolant temps, air, fuel, and compression. It doesn't matter if its canbus or not. Therefore, experience with other ohc v8s with a supercharger is somewhat relevant.

Ted Baldwin

..............Your point would have made sense if the low life that installed the supercharger had tuned it on the street and my my post suggested it that the car should have been tuned on the dyno. Considering that car was not tuned at all, I don't see the relevance of your post.

..........Your other point about adjusting timming, intake temps etc in a post 2001 Mercedes without DAS, I'll just chuck up to your lack of information about these cars. The issue is not the knowledge of what parameters to adjust. Everyone knows that. The issue is HOW to adjust these parameters in the post CANBUS world. Before you fall for the trap............no, piggy back engine computer you used will not work here.

Ted

FishtailnZ

Possibly related to Kleeman switching from the twin screw IHI design S/C it origionally used to an Eatons roots type.