Exodus

Surprisingly, he's not that stupid to try and get us to believe a Z06 would lose to a M6. Yay for Gustav

M&M

Funny I don't recall saying that. I said stop with the rigged excuses before even seeing the video.

Exodus

Gustav insinuated the M will start pulling in the K4 at 120 ish.

M&M

But he's stupid enough to show you a K4 E55? I don't get the logic. Why can't it just be a bunch of guys testing their cars without anyone thinking it's rigged?

Exodus

BECAUSE A K4 WILL RAPE THE F"**KING **** OUT OF A STOCK M5...

and when you start talking like "well... its fast but at 120... kinda like no" and blah blah blah we here at mbworld kind of start to wonder... especially when other memebers with only K2s beat M5s pretty bad...

M&M

I don't know what's a K4 but I assume it's a modded E55. I pretty sure it will beat a stock M5. But in my experience modifed boosting cars tends to big midrange improvements. Running more boost makes more torque & more HP. But at high rpm, a roots type blower is inefficient. I''m no expert but I would think that the heat from the added boost will reach a point where more boost does not necessarily make more power.

However, a 120mph race does not exploit your mid-range. It's all about high rpm power & who holds the power longer. If the K4 does that very well, then my argument is null & void & I beg forgiveness for wasting your time.

All things being equal, if it does make 640hp then there is no doubt who will win. If it does make the power that it.

dragonAMG

It should

FlyByNight

It's not rigged, its lame. Rolling start, lame videos out the windows where you can't see the distance unless the losing car is where the video is shot from. I watched the Z06 video, and its just lame. Hell, on the frickin 101 freeway I had a better angel shooting video from a car ahead as we passed by.

In other words, for the love of God, can someone set up a tripod at the end of this wacky straight away and just film the panoramic view so we can see both cars? A bunch of guys with 100k cars, and they can't set up a camera to see the race in a wide perspective?

As for the rigged part... not in terms of misrepresenting what car has what, but rather the rolling starts, which have been lame since Gustav started this whole thing over a year ago. The strength of all the E55 cars is in its burst out of the hole. Everyone knows that. Having them start on a roll with the "driver error" excuse is also lame. There's only so much you can get wrong from the dig, and even then, the faster car will STILL win when you're flying way beyond 120. Gustav, nice still pics.. but the video could be way more informative. YOU don't have to shot the video IN the car, you know. You only do that when you have to do it quick, secretly or don't have a frickin' AIRSTRIP at your disposal!!!!! You can have any one of those guys on the sidelines go down a 1/4 mile and get the whole thing nicely without adding extra weight with passengers and further skewing results.

So, in short, there are uninformative street races where the variables are vast and everyone is left scratching their heads at the end of the day (these are the Gustav videos, past and present) and there are videos where fair is fair, from a stop, with a camera downfield, and all other things being equal.

As messed up as Fontana was, it at least illustrated the true and sometimes subtle differences between these cars.

There's absolutely no reason this group of cars couldn't have acheived the same thing. "This is facts".

I'm hoping the K4 video, which I'll assume is from a roll as usual, will have a better perspective, a wider one, and doesn't involve passengers in either car! There's no place on dragtimes for "K4 plus 3 passengers".

Jeez!



Loren

dragonAMG

Like I said before... I spanked and I mean spanked my buddies M6. So bad that both times he gave up and then refused to race me again. LOL. In Gustav's and all other M owners defense, it was from a dig and not a roll

M&M

Well Europeans aren't into stoplight racing as much as AMericans are. There's more drap strips in your state that the WHOLE of Europe.

Europeans are more into the GT cruising type of thing which is why they look for the rolling run tests. If you want a stoplight racer, the E55 isn't the right car. Buy an Evo, put a big pump on it & do 9's all day long.

blackbenzz

My friend owns an M5 and I gave him a ride in my Kleemann CLK55 and he said I would definitely smoke him.

cte430

Some of this is amusing. Remember when we were waiting for the M5 to hit the states and we were talking about anticipated 1/4 times. All we heard was ridicule from M5 fans saying "Driving is more than going fast in a straight line", wait until the twisties", etc. Lo and behold the M5 proves to be pretty fast in a straight line. What do we see? non stop videos of these "stupid" straight line races that most BMW fans used to think was so beneath them. Better yet, these races need to be held in just the right way in order to make the car shine. wonder what kind of races we'd see if the M5 was amazing from a dig? I thought so.

Gustav was so proud posting the modded M5 video on all of the porsche boards. Being a current p-car owner I'll say to you what the M fans would say to an AMG owner who a race from a dig: "Wait until the twisties"

M&M

OK so searching this very forum I found out what a K4 is. But funnily enough a few people are disappointed with the performance of it:

https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/153949-very-disappointed-kleemann-mods-long.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c219/151261-need-little-help-understanding-my-k4-dyno.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c219/136556-just-had-my-first-dyno-after-kleemann-k4-installed.html


Here's a dyno of K4 vs K2 or something from someone on this forum:



As I suspected the curve comes back towards the stock curve at high rpm. I suspect without cooling mods this will be the trend, despite the fact that K4 has headwork. Sure if you supercool the car on the dyno you might get the curve to hold a bit longer but in racing conditions on a long airfield with heat soak creeping in, a 120 mph + race might see that trend re-occur.

A normally aspirated car like a Z06/M5 won't have that problem & the engine will get cooler the longer the race goes on. But I'm not so sure about a boosted car.

Jrocket

MB doesn't use roots type blowers,they use high-pressure screw-type Lysholm supercharger's with Teflon-coated rotors.The intake charge is cooled by a water cooled intercooler.Much more efficient than the type your referring to.

M&M

OK fair enough, my mistake. Still runs off the crank doesn't it. So there will be some form of parasitic loss, especially ay high rpm. Where does the power typically peak in relation to the redline?

dragonAMG

K4's don't have that much more power than a K2. The difference is only a 80mm TB worth ~ 25hp and Cams worth ~ 15hp. If you're lucky an extra 40hp over the K2 setup.

FlyByNight

M&M... just stop... while we could sit back and watch you educate yourself on the differences between K2 & K4 (cams & throttle body, that's it), you're missing the point. It really doesn't matter if the European crowd prefers rolling races... otherwise you'd only see Euro mags testing 30-70 type times, right? Wrong. Even in rolling start crazy Europe, they still actually... reliably... test 0-62 times. 0-200 times. They actually test a LOT of 0-xx times. Why is that? What, are they actually trying to create a valid comparison? Why would they do this if the European community frowns upon "from a stop" type racing?

Because they are COMPARING AND TESTING... which is what Gustav always claims to be doing. So, do it right. You've got a frickin' vacant airstrip. You've got money, hell you've got Kleemann bringing cars in on trailers. Are you telling me it is too difficult to have, oh, lets' say ONE from a stop race just to appease us backwards Americans? Haha.

Gustav has a better drag strip sitting in front of him than anything out here. We'd kill for that kind of space. We're going to Vegas or Bakersfield... way out of our way... just to find a strip, so you're mistaken if you think they are growing on trees out here.

But one thing we will do... we'll do it right. 0-xx so we can compare. We'll shoot way better video, be more objective, and definitely be less mysterious and dramatic about it. Its called objectivity, and it always seems to be cloudy when Gustav rolls in to mbworld. He does it on purpose, and that's just fine. But its entertainment, not fact.... and people here look at it as such until that fine day when he actually documents something from a scientific / journalistic perspective.

I know the K4 is a beast of a car... and having driven in a stock M5, its a silly comparison. Its like comparing a stock E55 to a heavily modded M5... its just not going to be pretty.

As for the the alternative stoplight car... you've made it very clear you don't know much about E55s... they are one of the best stop light cars on the planet, even in stock trim...



Loren

M&M

I don't know if the laws of physics are different on that side of the world, but over here the M5 dominates even from a stop. Wide rubber, 100% LSD, moderate torque off the line, short gearing will do that. I guess it helps that we have Launch control that enables us to rev 4500 off the line while in the US the M5 revs 1800 I believe. A car that makes peak torque at 4900 & peak power at 8000, being launched at 1800 doesn't make sense.

Anyway, even though our mags all get the M5 faster than the E55/E63 from a stop I still wouldn't call any of them stoplight racers.

zdkdeeier493

When asked why all the races are from a roll, you said this Gustav:

I don't get it. How so? What about timing (ie. when each driver takes off - I know you punch it once you pass the cones but that timing is purely guessing), each respective gear in which the race starts, speed coming out of the curve, rpm coming out of the curve...

It seems to me like there are a lot more variables involved in a rolling start to a race, Gustav. The only possible driver error involved in a dead launch is wheelspin. As Loren said, we'd kill for that kind of a track. Do some rolling races AND stationary ones. Why not?

FlyByNight

Sarcasm will get you everywhere with me!

They are in fact different over here... M5s are slower in the 1/4 all day long.

M&M

YEah well in the rest of the world where one can actually launch the M5 off the line instead of pulling from idle (on a car with a power peak at 8000rpm), this is what the reviews look like:



Shout if you want more, there are plenty mags from UK, GErmany, Australia, Greece, etc that get the M5 quicker off the line. SO yeah I agree with you guys. Gustav should have done some races from a stop so you guys can see how the Euro launch control works.

Exodus

Dude, you magazine racers are morons.



Find me a STOCK M5 or M6 that can beat that!

That is a stock 2005 E55 Mercedes-Benz AMG.

Oh, and here is the video!

I was just going to sink to your level and play with magazines, but really REALITY is much better.

That is a number NO M5 or M6 can touch...

I infact challenge you to find me EVEN A MODDED M5 or M6 to be faster than the stock E55 above.

Exodus

Too bad you don't have a video to shut these two clowns up...

FlyByNight

Mag times are mag times. You're trolling through very old issues here. Yes, some mags found the M5 faster. Yes, some found the E55 faster (C/D, 4.2 & 4.3 0-60). It really doesn't matter, especially since the M5 in question is modded.

You're right on target that Gustav needs to have some dead stop races and better video before he can ruffle feathers here. Its always lame drama... like this video. Crap, we make televsion shows faster than he can post a video he's supposedly already made... and may not appear, just to try and rub us the wrong way. That's what I'm referring to.

The M5 versus E55 thing is so done with...

M&M

Exodus, down under this side of the world a guy ran like 12.0 @ 119 in stock M5 on pump fuel on something ridiculous like 22" wheels or something. I believe it was around 88 deg & our tracks aren't well prepared for traction.

If you search the M5board I think you will find his post with the slip. He's from Australia so he has Euro spec LC.