otoupalik

We do not use aluminized steel, BTW, it is a carbon mild steel.

This is simply not true. This is PURE marketing, 304 Stainless is about the worst material you can use for headers, 321 Stainless is awesome. I take great exception to this comment, I hear it all the time and my reply is typically" "Please give me your metallurgical background or engineering degree to support that."

We CHOOSE to use Mild Steel on ALL our M and AMG headers for one primary reason. LONGTERM RELIABILITY. 304 Stainless (what is used on the vast majrity of Stainless BMW headers) WILL fatigue and crack and fail given the heat that an M motor or an AMG F/I motor makes. Look at the EGT's, do some research, you will find that Stainless is far more prone to cracking due to the lack of elasticity in the metal. If you use Stainless of sufficient grade (321 or better yet 409) it will resist the heat, and last longer, but it is just a matter of time with 304. BTW, using 321 or 409 will add at least another 30% to the price of that Stainless header.

Mild steel has elasticity due to the carbon content and allows for some give as the heat cycles happen. This is especially important in climates with bad weather where the car will go from 8000 rpm HOT EGT's to freezing temps when sitting overnight.

If you look at the recent history of Stainless headers on the M3 (last 4 years), you will see a significant number of issues with the leading maker (SuperSprint).

Our record is pretty good. Not one failure in 4 years of making headers for the AMGs and M cars.

And here is a better link to THE industry expert: BURNS

I just thought I would find some relevant info from Burns (who really is one of the experts in our industry).

Here is the link to their tech article: BURNS

Some sections that you will specifically want to reference are:

Within the 300 series of stainless steels, there are four types that are suitable, available and cost effective for the racer. These are 304, 316L, 321, and 347.

321 and 347 are known as stabilized grades of stainless. These are alloyed with either titanium (321) or columbium (347), both of which have a much stronger affinity for carbon than does chromium at elevated temperatures. This eliminates carbide precipitation leaving the chromium where it belongs for corrosion protection...remember our discussion of intergranular corrosion? Both 321 and 347 are top choices for exhaust headers, especially turbocharger systems and rotary engines. Since 321 is much more available than 347, that leaves 321 as the first choice, with no sacrifice in needed qualities.

304 is the most inexpensive and available stainless in the 300 series. It is suitable for normally-aspirated header applications, and has been successfully used by many racing teams. It does not have the high temperature fatigue resistance that 321 does, but is considerably less costly and much more available. Most 304 tubing these days has the dual designation of 304/304L.

This speaks to our philosophy exactly. In motors with lower EGT's (which certainly excludes the e46 M3 S54 motor), 304 can be fine. However, when theory, metallurgy and our REAL experience with 304 failures - we were left with the choice to use 321 or mild. As 321 is about 2x the price and would price the header out of reach of all but the wealthiest M3 owners, we went with the 2nd best alternative.

Also, as you read that link, please do not assume the mild carbon steel that we use is 1010. It is not, it is many steps superior to 1010.

I am happy to find additional resources to give anyone as references if needed.

We coat them for power increase and corrosion resistance. The coating adds approx 5-10 hp due as it lets less heat (ie: energy) transfer to the metal compared to uncoated. Also, with this coating we can offer a LIFETIME warranty against rust and corrosion (we have NEVER had one come back - not EVER).

No, this would be worse as the 304 will fail - seen it way too many times. 321 yes, that would be the best of both worlds, but would add over $1000 to the price.

Where will you be sending that $7K check for headers, I will have them ready next week!

Yes, and if you like pulling headers off the car to fix welds and cracked metal, get the 304 stainless ones by all means!

Thanks
Brad

jangy

Thanks for the correction, but you may want to correct your site:
"The evosport "shorty" header features a laser-cut head flange and CNC collector flange for a precise fit and leak-free seal. The aluminized steel construction also features a 2100ºF ceramic coating for heat retention and corrosion protection."

http://www.evosport.com/product/315

Not trying to be a *****, just seems like I'm always on the opposite end of the stick from EvoSport. I've tried to be as fair and objective in all my reviews. Didn't know I needed to be an engineer to do so.

jangy

Ouch!! $12K for 40hp? I hope Adam hooks you up.

otoupalik

Good catch, I will get that to the webmaster ASAP! Thanks.

No worries. Please do not take this as aggressive, there is no ill will from our side!

It is just important to get accurate information. You do not need to be an engineer, but I think that the info that I provided should help make any further discussion more accurate and informative.

Thanks
Brad

vrus

Just want to add a little more info for you guys:

Mine have been installed for 2 seasons so far going through winter & summer and the coating is still perfect on them and there is no rust or cracks anywhere. They get from me.

jangy

Thanks for the response, Brad. It is appreciated.

otoupalik

Vrus - thanks!

Jangy - thank you. It is often too easy to create "battles" with people on these and other forums as people get lost in the meaning of the words and cannot tell the intention. I am happy that we did not have that here! It is a sad thing that happens and it creates way way too much ill will and bitterness when there should just be fun and joy in sharing our car passion!

For whatever it is worth, people should know that evosport is made up of engineers, business people, technicians, etc - but we are all car FREAKS! Most of us race (professional or amateur) and all of us live and breath cars - from the warehouse manager to the owners!

Thanks
brad

Vic55

to copy the forum cliche:

+1 (more than 2 years I think)

jangy

Agreed with you on that. As you know, I've spent plenty of time on this forum being critical (objectively and subjectively) of EvoSport and others. It is a tribute to your company that you allow people like me to question the "truth".

Headers and IC are my next big investment, so I have been most interested in these discussions.

Hmmmm, the two vics are loving their headers. Maybe I need to rethink my plans??

otoupalik

Well we allow people to speak their minds for two primary reasons:

1. We 100% believe that our products are better then the others. We are a newer company then the competition, but we have REAL engineers on board, we actually build and maintain race cars (none of our competition except Carlsson do this) and we put more testing and newer technologies into our stuff. We are not always right, but we think we are more then the others!

2. Trying to hide facts or truth just comes off badly. Good or bad, being honest and open will always get you more respect.

Sometimes we are seen as arrogant or uptight, but that is a total misunderstanding of us. We are racers, tuners, modders, CAR GUYS - that Really do test and develop, not just copy or post BS marketing to sell products.

Whatever product anyone buys, as long as they give evosport an objective look, that is all we can ask for!

Thanks
Brad

Vic55

Jangy you are the most wishy washy (are those words?)person I have ever met in regards to mods and I say that in a nice way. I just wish once you would pull the trigger on something but then we would have half as many threads in this forum

Yes the two vics enjoy the Evo headers but I stopped modding a long time ago and VRUS became a freak of nature

Oh where is my license frame?

jangy

Actually, that clarifies quite a bit for me. You are right about the perception, as I had it initially 2 years ago when I first spoke with someone there about deep discounts. Since then, I've seen the other side. I still push for better pricing, but I do sometimes wish I had sucked it up and gone the Evil route.

One of these days I'll be spanking VIC55's pants, I just hope it is before he gets rid of the E.

jangy

Dude, I did pull the trigger and you saw where that got me. The car still ain't running. I didn't back out. Plus, I am a picky one. I don't just want whatever the crowd is grazing on. Tis also true that half of my thoughts have at least got people thinking.

Wait a sec, I just thought about it. I bet I have spent as much on mods for my cars as anyone here. We should start a mod list thread and see!

Dude, I have to steal you the AMG plate. There is a slight chance I may can get it, but AMG (Robert Daschil) told me today that marketing won't let him give one to me. He is hooking me up with lots of goodies. Want a hat?

Vic55

Ill take the hat as interest.

jangy

Dude, you are a straight slave driver. I love it!! Vadim better watch out. I may take some shots and go streaking through MBLN to snake the plate off that DTM. Also, look back on your post. You said plate frame. I know it is a typo, but just making sure it is the plate you want and not a frame (which I can get). LOL!!

Bad comes to worse, I will snake one at the AMG challenge this year just to get you out of both strands of hair I have left!

DJE55

I have the Evo's on my car as well. They've been on there for about 1.5yrs and still look new. Also (as far as I know) I have the fastest K1 car out there. All I have is Kleemann's pulley/ecu mod and the Evo headers. Unfortunately I didn't dyno the car without the headers so I can't say for sure what they gave me. I just know, out of all the other E55's with just these mods, I don't think anyone else is within a tenth or two?

ROCKETW19

alot cheeper than 12k and that 40 hp was with no ECU changes we will see the true number in a couple of days

psk145

that thought just gave me the chills. I think MBLN will gladly give you the plate rather than see you run butt nekid through their dealership.

I think you still need to reimburse us for the therapy we need from seeing the crack

chiromikey

i can't take anything away from your fantastic times but you do have an unfair advantage being in md.

jangy

Glad it was cheaper.

jangy

I don't know. Vadim is pretty hard to shake. I think he's seen most all by now.
As for your visual opportunity, I say head on over to your local counselor and send me the bill. It is an image that my kids can't even stand.

ROCKETW19

me too. but to tell ya the truth it didnt matter i wanted something that not everyone else would be stupid enough to buy (its not that bad if you count headders from evo 3k eisman exhaust 3k + install i didnt pay to much more and i got resenator and 100 cell cat that work with the ECU no hacking. normaly i woudnt spend that kind cash on something with no real value but i closed a big real estate deal witch more than paid for it. funny thing is all i did was refer the deal. lol i love the USA

lbE55

Two years and still love them

No complaints with any EvoSport product (or service), and they're 15 minutes from my house.

stevebez

Brad - can you tell me if they will fit a RHD car ?

DJE55

Yeah, our tracks are shorter over here and they are all down hill. I just can't figure out why any of the other E55's with the same mods (some cases more) don't have a better et? I guess being in Md only helps me?