OT - Anyone know of a C6 Z06 vs E55 on 5N?
#226
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
.... nor did you respond to any of mine:
OK, I'll try to now.
- the Z06s whose vids I posted were either stock (1), or modded less than or equal to the one you supposedly raced (3), despite your ridiculous false claim that they had nitrous.
I never said they had nitrous. I did say that the one in the video was modded MUCH more heavily than any that I have ever seen (much less the Ghost one we are talking about).
- the CL65 you falsely claimed had the same rwhp as your car now has a) more rwhp stock than your car has now, and b) was modded with an ECU tune. In fact, even though this ECU tune has been pointed out to you five separate times now, you simply refuse to acknowledge its existance, because you know damn good and well that if a stock CL65 puts out around 60 more rwhp than yours supposedly does, yet an ECU flashed CL65 can barely beat a stock Z06 all the way up to 140+, then your supposed 500 rwhp car damn sure won't run one down one after giving him a jump, let alone beat one from a roll, unless its driver is simply too incompetant to drive it.
Again, I never falsely claimed the CL65 numbers, you did. I simply corrected you. Again, I know exactly what a tuned CL65 can do. The Vette wasn't stock, either. Your video simply told me nothing.
- I say "supposed" 500 rwhp car because now it turns out that, after TWICE falsely claiming that dyno numbers show that YOUR CAR makes first 500, then 505 rwhp, you turned around and said that it you have no dyno, and then lied on top of that and said you'd never claimed it in the first place. So the FACT is that you have no proof of this claim either.
Just to clarify, the car has been dyno'd and results posted where they should be. I will try to post a copy in OT. I never saw the dyno runs or the data, so I have no proof. Not sure what claim I "lied" about, but ok. Truth is I think my car makes 500ish hp to the floor. I believe that. Do I have the proof? no, you are right.
- in addition to having no 1/4 mile slips, you have no vids either. when vids showing the opposite are presented, you either lie about them (claiming for the Z06s nitrous or state of tune which they do not have, repeatedly refusing to acknowledge or address the ECU flash on the CL65, etc), refuse to discuss them at all (Z06 beating an SLR), or accuse the E55/CLS55 owners of not knowing how to drive.
I will try not to lie so much. Here is a start, I acknowledge that the CL65 had an ECU flash. By the way, while we are discussing it, did you keep up with the first flashes that came out for the CL65? Yeah, ask about those. When was that video taken and what version and brand flash was that?
I never said the E55 owners can't drive. As any regular in this room knows, I love my E because it takes no skills.
- when longstanding forum members who are clearly Mercedes enthusiasts but who (gasp) own or have run Z06s weighed in, you simply attacked them as "haters, corvette worshippers" and the like. when finally asked to identify some of these haters (plural), you simply lied and said that you had been using the plural sense of the word to refer to a single person, me. What a crock of BS....while you are obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer, you damn sure know the difference between the singular and the plural, and the fact is that you were smearing MULTIPLE members, not only me, then lied, and continue to lie, about it.
I apologize to the crowds, as many of YOU that remain.
- when Z06 1/4 mile tests and runs were introduced, you made a ridiculous argument that there were not enough runs to be "statistically significant", implied that I knew nothing about statistics (as it turns out, not a smart thing to do without knowing someone's background), only to run away from that point with your tail between your legs when it became obvious that I've forgotten more about stats than you know.
Huh? Run? Let's play the stat game. Start a new thread in OT and we can have fun. That was never meant in any way but hgow it was presented. There isn't enough data to make a simple call or we wouldn't have wasted 2 weeks on the point.
- you claimed that your car only weighed 4-500 pounds more than a Z06. when actual weigh-ins for both cars was presented showing E55s to be 1000-1100 pounds heavier, you ignored it, then, amazingly, had the chutzpah to raise the issue again several posts later as though it had never been discussed, let alone resolved.
When did I claim what my car or the Vette weigh? How was it resolved? between you and you? I never denied the 1K lbs, not that its true.
- yes, I did say "paranoid", because you said that in debating you, I was "being used", but when asked to identify in what sense or by whom, you refused to answer. just another false accusation and smear in a long line...
by yourself. i dunno if this is your habit or if I just struck a cord.
- you debated me about a CL65, then lied about it to the ricker, and also falsely stated that I'd been discussing a CL600.
Damn, sorry sean I got caught in another lie.
Up to this point, I've been reserved in my criticism of the event itself, and at one point was willing to give you a certain benefit of the doubt but I'll be crystal clear:
So yeah, I'm calling
OK, I'll try to now.
- the Z06s whose vids I posted were either stock (1), or modded less than or equal to the one you supposedly raced (3), despite your ridiculous false claim that they had nitrous.
I never said they had nitrous. I did say that the one in the video was modded MUCH more heavily than any that I have ever seen (much less the Ghost one we are talking about).
- the CL65 you falsely claimed had the same rwhp as your car now has a) more rwhp stock than your car has now, and b) was modded with an ECU tune. In fact, even though this ECU tune has been pointed out to you five separate times now, you simply refuse to acknowledge its existance, because you know damn good and well that if a stock CL65 puts out around 60 more rwhp than yours supposedly does, yet an ECU flashed CL65 can barely beat a stock Z06 all the way up to 140+, then your supposed 500 rwhp car damn sure won't run one down one after giving him a jump, let alone beat one from a roll, unless its driver is simply too incompetant to drive it.
Again, I never falsely claimed the CL65 numbers, you did. I simply corrected you. Again, I know exactly what a tuned CL65 can do. The Vette wasn't stock, either. Your video simply told me nothing.
- I say "supposed" 500 rwhp car because now it turns out that, after TWICE falsely claiming that dyno numbers show that YOUR CAR makes first 500, then 505 rwhp, you turned around and said that it you have no dyno, and then lied on top of that and said you'd never claimed it in the first place. So the FACT is that you have no proof of this claim either.
Just to clarify, the car has been dyno'd and results posted where they should be. I will try to post a copy in OT. I never saw the dyno runs or the data, so I have no proof. Not sure what claim I "lied" about, but ok. Truth is I think my car makes 500ish hp to the floor. I believe that. Do I have the proof? no, you are right.
- in addition to having no 1/4 mile slips, you have no vids either. when vids showing the opposite are presented, you either lie about them (claiming for the Z06s nitrous or state of tune which they do not have, repeatedly refusing to acknowledge or address the ECU flash on the CL65, etc), refuse to discuss them at all (Z06 beating an SLR), or accuse the E55/CLS55 owners of not knowing how to drive.
I will try not to lie so much. Here is a start, I acknowledge that the CL65 had an ECU flash. By the way, while we are discussing it, did you keep up with the first flashes that came out for the CL65? Yeah, ask about those. When was that video taken and what version and brand flash was that?
I never said the E55 owners can't drive. As any regular in this room knows, I love my E because it takes no skills.
- when longstanding forum members who are clearly Mercedes enthusiasts but who (gasp) own or have run Z06s weighed in, you simply attacked them as "haters, corvette worshippers" and the like. when finally asked to identify some of these haters (plural), you simply lied and said that you had been using the plural sense of the word to refer to a single person, me. What a crock of BS....while you are obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer, you damn sure know the difference between the singular and the plural, and the fact is that you were smearing MULTIPLE members, not only me, then lied, and continue to lie, about it.
I apologize to the crowds, as many of YOU that remain.
- when Z06 1/4 mile tests and runs were introduced, you made a ridiculous argument that there were not enough runs to be "statistically significant", implied that I knew nothing about statistics (as it turns out, not a smart thing to do without knowing someone's background), only to run away from that point with your tail between your legs when it became obvious that I've forgotten more about stats than you know.
Huh? Run? Let's play the stat game. Start a new thread in OT and we can have fun. That was never meant in any way but hgow it was presented. There isn't enough data to make a simple call or we wouldn't have wasted 2 weeks on the point.
- you claimed that your car only weighed 4-500 pounds more than a Z06. when actual weigh-ins for both cars was presented showing E55s to be 1000-1100 pounds heavier, you ignored it, then, amazingly, had the chutzpah to raise the issue again several posts later as though it had never been discussed, let alone resolved.
When did I claim what my car or the Vette weigh? How was it resolved? between you and you? I never denied the 1K lbs, not that its true.
- yes, I did say "paranoid", because you said that in debating you, I was "being used", but when asked to identify in what sense or by whom, you refused to answer. just another false accusation and smear in a long line...
by yourself. i dunno if this is your habit or if I just struck a cord.
- you debated me about a CL65, then lied about it to the ricker, and also falsely stated that I'd been discussing a CL600.
Damn, sorry sean I got caught in another lie.
Up to this point, I've been reserved in my criticism of the event itself, and at one point was willing to give you a certain benefit of the doubt but I'll be crystal clear:
So yeah, I'm calling
#227
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Jangy's car does make around 500 whp at the wheels. His car was the one used by VRP in developing their stages. At one point there was a dyno without the headers, and the car made 475 whp, and I think this is one of the last round of dynos where the car made 502 whp.....
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/229781-vr600-m113-kompressor.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/229781-vr600-m113-kompressor.html
#228
btw, jangy, haven't forgotten about you, wanted to address this first:
Wow, well I guess it's not just my posts jangy doesn't bother to read either, as he said he didn't have dyno numbers when they were right here all the time.....thanks for sharing, but if this is in response to me, I never said his car *didn't* make 500, only that he hadn't provided any proof that it does, and that he first said it makes 500, then said he never said it makes 500.
But thanks for providing it, I'll get back to it in a moment...I still maintain that even if it is putting out 503 rwhp, this is simply not enough to allow a 4,200 pound car to pull a 3150 pound car w/the dyno numbers a Z06 puts down. I'm looking at one page of dragetimes' dyno sheets for stock Z06s, and here are some numbers (the # is what they put next to the hp number to indicate stock vehicle, * indicates there's a vid of the dyno):
476.23#
455.10#
453.09*#
450.07#
445.81*#
441.90#
The average of these (and I am *omitting* one which is claimed as stock that produced 500 rwhp, because imo that's a flyer) is 453.7 rwhp.
3150 pounds/453.7 = 6.94 lbs/rwhp.
4200 pounds/503 = 8.35 pounds/rwhp.
Look at the difference, and this is with stock Z06s! If you average the ones w/intake and exhaust mods (which the one jangy supposedly ran has), the average goes UP.
We are talking about a 20% disadvantage here in horsepower to weight, boys and girls...it is simply NOT realistic that under such conditions, the heavier car could let the lighter car get a jump and run him down, and frankly, it's not credible that the heavier car could have won at all, unless he was racing someone too incompetent or lazy to shift his Z06 properly, or the Z had something seriously wrong with it.
Put it this way: W208s put out about 295 rwhp, and weigh 3450 pounds. This gives 11.7 lbs/rwhp. A stock W211 typically puts out around 430 rwhp, and weighs 4200 pounds. This gives 9.75 pounds/rwhp. Interestingly enough, I would be at a 20% disadvantage to the W211 weight/horsepower wise.
Anyone here think I could give one the jump and run it down? Anyone here think I could beat one multiple times? If you do, please: seek Psychiatric care, now!
Now, if it turns out that jangy's car weighs exactly 3490 pounds, roughly the same as mine, he'd have that weight disadvantage licked, and would *tie* the stock Z06s' weight/rwhp number of 6.94 lbs/rwhp. Unfortunately, he's driving a W211 w/503 rwhp, not a W208.
Jangy's car does make around 500 whp at the wheels. His car was the one used by VRP in developing their stages. At one point there was a dyno without the headers, and the car made 475 whp, and I think this is one of the last round of dynos where the car made 502 whp.....
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229781
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229781
But thanks for providing it, I'll get back to it in a moment...I still maintain that even if it is putting out 503 rwhp, this is simply not enough to allow a 4,200 pound car to pull a 3150 pound car w/the dyno numbers a Z06 puts down. I'm looking at one page of dragetimes' dyno sheets for stock Z06s, and here are some numbers (the # is what they put next to the hp number to indicate stock vehicle, * indicates there's a vid of the dyno):
476.23#
455.10#
453.09*#
450.07#
445.81*#
441.90#
The average of these (and I am *omitting* one which is claimed as stock that produced 500 rwhp, because imo that's a flyer) is 453.7 rwhp.
3150 pounds/453.7 = 6.94 lbs/rwhp.
4200 pounds/503 = 8.35 pounds/rwhp.
Look at the difference, and this is with stock Z06s! If you average the ones w/intake and exhaust mods (which the one jangy supposedly ran has), the average goes UP.
We are talking about a 20% disadvantage here in horsepower to weight, boys and girls...it is simply NOT realistic that under such conditions, the heavier car could let the lighter car get a jump and run him down, and frankly, it's not credible that the heavier car could have won at all, unless he was racing someone too incompetent or lazy to shift his Z06 properly, or the Z had something seriously wrong with it.
Put it this way: W208s put out about 295 rwhp, and weigh 3450 pounds. This gives 11.7 lbs/rwhp. A stock W211 typically puts out around 430 rwhp, and weighs 4200 pounds. This gives 9.75 pounds/rwhp. Interestingly enough, I would be at a 20% disadvantage to the W211 weight/horsepower wise.
Anyone here think I could give one the jump and run it down? Anyone here think I could beat one multiple times? If you do, please: seek Psychiatric care, now!
Now, if it turns out that jangy's car weighs exactly 3490 pounds, roughly the same as mine, he'd have that weight disadvantage licked, and would *tie* the stock Z06s' weight/rwhp number of 6.94 lbs/rwhp. Unfortunately, he's driving a W211 w/503 rwhp, not a W208.
Last edited by Improviz; 05-20-2008 at 09:01 PM.
#229
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
Wow, well I guess it's not just my posts jangy doesn't bother to read either, as he said he didn't have dyno numbers when they were right here all the time.....thanks for sharing, but if this is in response to me, I never said his car *didn't* make 500, only that he hadn't provided any proof that it does, and that he first said it makes 500, then said he never said it makes 500.
Damn, caught me again. LOL!!!
3150 pounds/453.7 = 6.94 lbs/rwhp.
4200 pounds/503 = 8.35 pounds/rwhp.
Damn, caught me again. LOL!!!
3150 pounds/453.7 = 6.94 lbs/rwhp.
4200 pounds/503 = 8.35 pounds/rwhp.
What happenned to our race? Where is your Z06? Maybe we can go to the public scales and see the difference when we go racing?
Back to OT?
#230
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
Jangy's car does make around 500 whp at the wheels. His car was the one used by VRP in developing their stages. At one point there was a dyno without the headers, and the car made 475 whp, and I think this is one of the last round of dynos where the car made 502 whp.....
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229781
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229781
#231
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
Put it this way: W208s put out about 295 rwhp, and weigh 3450 pounds. This gives 11.7 lbs/rwhp. A stock W211 typically puts out around 430 rwhp, and weighs 4200 pounds. This gives 9.75 pounds/rwhp. Interestingly enough, I would be at a 20% disadvantage to the W211 weight/horsepower wise.
Anyone here think I could give one the jump and run it down? Anyone here think I could beat one multiple times? If you do, please: seek Psychiatric care, now!
Now, if it turns out that jangy's car weighs exactly 3490 pounds, roughly the same as mine, he'd have that weight disadvantage licked, and would *tie* the stock Z06s' weight/rwhp number of 6.94 lbs/rwhp. Unfortunately, he's driving a W211 w/503 rwhp, not a W208.
Anyone here think I could give one the jump and run it down? Anyone here think I could beat one multiple times? If you do, please: seek Psychiatric care, now!
Now, if it turns out that jangy's car weighs exactly 3490 pounds, roughly the same as mine, he'd have that weight disadvantage licked, and would *tie* the stock Z06s' weight/rwhp number of 6.94 lbs/rwhp. Unfortunately, he's driving a W211 w/503 rwhp, not a W208.
#232
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Joined: Nov 2006
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
But thanks for providing it, I'll get back to it in a moment...I still maintain that even if it is putting out 503 rwhp, this is simply not enough to allow a 4,200 pound car to pull a 3150 pound car w/the dyno numbers a Z06 puts down. I'm looking at one page of dragetimes' dyno sheets for stock Z06s, and here are some numbers (the # is what they put next to the hp number to indicate stock vehicle, * indicates there's a vid of the dyno):
476.23#
455.10#
453.09*#
450.07#
445.81*#
441.90#
The average of these (and I am *omitting* one which is claimed as stock that produced 500 rwhp, because imo that's a flyer) is 453.7 rwhp.
3150 pounds/453.7 = 6.94 lbs/rwhp.
4200 pounds/503 = 8.35 pounds/rwhp.
476.23#
455.10#
453.09*#
450.07#
445.81*#
441.90#
The average of these (and I am *omitting* one which is claimed as stock that produced 500 rwhp, because imo that's a flyer) is 453.7 rwhp.
3150 pounds/453.7 = 6.94 lbs/rwhp.
4200 pounds/503 = 8.35 pounds/rwhp.
Regarding the weight.... The E55 is claimed to be around 4050 lbs, but most of them come at 4200 lbs. Similarly, the Z06 is claimed to be 3150 lbs, but most will come at 3300 lbs.
This changes your equation above to 7.6 lbs/rwhp for the Z06 compared to 8.3 lbs/rwhp for the E55.
Now consider torque; I think Jangy's car makes 100+ more rwtq than the stock Z06. So the question becomes: can an extra 75 whp (~90 hp) and an extra 100 wtq overcome the 900 lbs advantage between the two cars?
I think the hp calculator from E.T. and Trap is too theoretical. It can be skewed easily by small changes. For instance, assume an E55 ran 12.4 @ 114 in pure stock form. This would give us a hp estimate of 465 hp @ the crank. Now if the driver puts on drag radials and runs 12.1 @ 116.5, then we get a hp estimate of 494 hp. That's almost 30 hp difference. On the track, I've seen a Z06 run 12.0 to 12.4 on same track with same driver. The calculator would give us a big difference of hp, but the engine has not changed.
#233
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From: Redondo Beach
Z06, M3, Mini Cooper S. Sold: C55
I've been at the track when some RennTech beasts come out & they inevitibly lose to other sports & muscle cars on the track, or break.
BTW, you do realize that 560+ lbs foot of torque only requires a rather simple cam, software & muffler swap for a Z06?
#234
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From: Redondo Beach
Z06, M3, Mini Cooper S. Sold: C55
Do disrespect, but the dude was trying. We even spoke about it later. If he can't drive, then tough. I don't care and there are no excuses in a race. Last thing, my car is neither an E63 nor stock. I am putting down more HP and LOADS of TQ over an E63.
Sears point is far, BUT maybe if we get enough money on it (improv?). By the way, what happenned to the slew of Z06 people in SoCal that would come and slap me around? Not one rsponse out of the second largest car club in California.
Sears point is far, BUT maybe if we get enough money on it (improv?). By the way, what happenned to the slew of Z06 people in SoCal that would come and slap me around? Not one rsponse out of the second largest car club in California.
Money schmoney... I don't really care if anyone else puts money on it, I was just telling you where I'm going to be if you want to go to a track event where you know at least 1 Z06 will attend.
#235
If the E55 makes 469 at the crank, this translates to 384 at the wheels. Mercedes is not the only manufacturer who underrates their numbers.
An air filter mod isn't going to pick you up 30 rwhp.
And until/unless you can provide some evidence that they're not stock, I see no reason to question them.
Further, you're ignoring one vital piece of information: jangy himself said that the Z06 he ran had intake and exhaust mods. Therefore, if anything these UNDERSTATE the weight/hp numbers in the comparison we're discussing here.
I've already addressed this point in this thread, but here goes again: both Car & Driver and Road & Track weigh the cars they test. I posted the weigh-ins they got for several Z06s, and the heaviest was just shy of 3200 pounds, the lightest was in the 3150 range.
Only if it is true.
No, it doesn't. The dyno you gave listed it at 515, while the Z06s I listed were in the range of 440-460 rwtq. That puts him at 75 more, tops...but unfortunately, try comparing the rwtq of an M6 to a stock E55 some time, and then watch a race between them. rwhp is the better indicator, as power = work/time, indicating which car makes the most power over a time *period*. Torque is an instantaneous measurement. Races aren't, they're done over a period of time, which is why a Ferrari F430 can run 11's despite having far less torque than a Z06 or E55.
I never mentioned the ET/trap calculator, because I don't use it. I use the trap speed and weight calculator, which is more accurate: if we assume a 4200 pound E55 with a 150 pound driver, equation becomes crank hp = 4350*(114/234)^3 = 502 crank. Much better.
Hmm, afaik you don't typically get much of an increase in trap w/drag radials, because they're only increasing traction, not power. I'll look into this, further, though, because it's been awhile and, unlike certain folks (not referring to you here), I like to check my facts before I claim them.
Will get back to you on this, stay tuned.
The only two dynos of stock Z06 I've seen at my local dyno shop were 417 whp and 428 whp which seems to be more in line with Chevrolet's claimed numbers. This leads me to believe that the dyno numbers on dragtimes either were done in very good conditions in the east coast (cold weather, low humidity, etc....) or that they're simply not 100% stock. For example, some people consider the air filter mod to be stock while others don't.
And until/unless you can provide some evidence that they're not stock, I see no reason to question them.
Further, you're ignoring one vital piece of information: jangy himself said that the Z06 he ran had intake and exhaust mods. Therefore, if anything these UNDERSTATE the weight/hp numbers in the comparison we're discussing here.
Will get back to you on this, stay tuned.
Last edited by Improviz; 05-21-2008 at 10:10 AM.
#236
jangy tells another whopper:
jangy, I've got a busy day ahead of me, and your post will require some time to document all of the BS contained within, but I didn't want to leave you empty-handed, so I thought I'd give you a quick teaser. Enjoy!
Hmm, the Vette wasn't stock, eh? Interesting, because the video, which you can watch here (presumably for the first time, unless you're a fool in addition to being a liar) starts off with the following declaration:
Sure, jangy, the Z06 wasn't stock, just like the Z06s in the other were "far more modded" than the one you supposedly raced, just like you invented the internet, the check's in the mail, etc. etc...
This is like taking candy from a baby. Please, for your own sake: get out of that hole and stop digging....trust me, there is *plenty* more to pick from in your last response.
- the CL65 you falsely claimed had the same rwhp as your car now has a) more rwhp stock than your car has now, and b) was modded with an ECU tune. In fact, even though this ECU tune has been pointed out to you five separate times now, you simply refuse to acknowledge its existance, because you know damn good and well that if a stock CL65 puts out around 60 more rwhp than yours supposedly does, yet an ECU flashed CL65 can barely beat a stock Z06 all the way up to 140+, then your supposed 500 rwhp car damn sure won't run one down one after giving him a jump, let alone beat one from a roll, unless its driver is simply too incompetant to drive it.
Sure, jangy, the Z06 wasn't stock, just like the Z06s in the other were "far more modded" than the one you supposedly raced, just like you invented the internet, the check's in the mail, etc. etc...
This is like taking candy from a baby. Please, for your own sake: get out of that hole and stop digging....trust me, there is *plenty* more to pick from in your last response.
Last edited by Improviz; 05-21-2008 at 09:58 AM.
#237
Page 2 has the stock C6 Z06s. I did not find any on page 3. I put *all* of the stockers from page 2. Nothing "hand selected", or cherry picked....you're the one who's been telling lies all through this thread (trust me: that last post of yours was chock full of them, and I'll put each and every one of them up tonight), not me.
I published the weights they got for both the Z06 (several examples) and the E55 (also several examples). I posted a post in this thread which explained this to you. Either you are the most forgetful person on the face of the earth, a possibility given that you weren't even aware that your car's dyno IS on these forums in a thread in which YOU participated again, or you're fibbing. In either case, it's been addressed.
As long as you keep lying about what you've written and what I've written, I will certainly keep documenting it. Stay tuned.
Last edited by Improviz; 05-21-2008 at 12:57 PM.
#238
You don't handle analogy and logic very well, know that?
#239
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
HAHAHA!!!! I love it. Keep up the attempts. Please o please tear my posts up even more. My car is done. Ihave an HD cam. The local GM dealer is willing to play. I will get with him, tape it all and post it.
Haha!! I used to read about cars, too. C&D was so cool back then, until I noticed that they love American cars.......check their ads, too. Why do you always want others to do your work for you? C&D may have tested both cars, but NEVER in a truly comparable way. Their results are simply qualitative. The numbers they publish are simply their snap shot on a particular day. That means nothing here on earth.
Enjoy your CLK. Analogies aside, maybe you can twist the numbers just enough to take a stock E55?
Haha!! I used to read about cars, too. C&D was so cool back then, until I noticed that they love American cars.......check their ads, too. Why do you always want others to do your work for you? C&D may have tested both cars, but NEVER in a truly comparable way. Their results are simply qualitative. The numbers they publish are simply their snap shot on a particular day. That means nothing here on earth.
Enjoy your CLK. Analogies aside, maybe you can twist the numbers just enough to take a stock E55?
#240
Honestly, this is quite sad to watch....I mean, really: you have absolutely no data, so all you do is attack any source which shows you to be wrong, be it me, or Car & Driver, Sir Issac Newton, and probably Einstein were I to cite him.
I see...so now that you've had further mods done on your car, you'll run a Z06, and this will prove how your car ran before these mods were installed...
Wow, that's very logical.
So, I'm sure that if you ran a Z06, and then afterwards he went and got full headers/exhaust installed, then wanted to race you again to "prove" the results of your previous race, you'd be perfectly OK with it.
Of course, jangy, we know, we know....any piece of data, from anywhere, presented by anyone, which doesn't support your argument simply is not credible.
If Sports Illustrated publishes an article about Carl Lewis running a 9.8 second 100m dash, well, that's just a snapshot on that particular day, and simply means nothing here on "earth". Btw, just checking: what color is the sun on the particular "earth" on which you live?
But the thing is, we're discussing weights, not times. They weighed these cars. Are you seriously trying to argue that they cannot even be trusted enough to weigh a car accurately?
Or, how about this: actually contribute something to this debate for a change, and provide some data: do you have any data to indicate that a 211 E55 will, w/full tank (this is how both publications I listed weigh their cars), weigh in at anything substantially less than 4200 pounds?
Please provide one example of my twisting any numbers whatsoever in this thread, or in any other thread. I have not.
Wow, that's very logical.
So, I'm sure that if you ran a Z06, and then afterwards he went and got full headers/exhaust installed, then wanted to race you again to "prove" the results of your previous race, you'd be perfectly OK with it.
Haha!! I used to read about cars, too. C&D was so cool back then, until I noticed that they love American cars.......check their ads, too. Why do you always want others to do your work for you? C&D may have tested both cars, but NEVER in a truly comparable way. Their results are simply qualitative. The numbers they publish are simply their snap shot on a particular day. That means nothing here on earth.
If Sports Illustrated publishes an article about Carl Lewis running a 9.8 second 100m dash, well, that's just a snapshot on that particular day, and simply means nothing here on "earth". Btw, just checking: what color is the sun on the particular "earth" on which you live?
But the thing is, we're discussing weights, not times. They weighed these cars. Are you seriously trying to argue that they cannot even be trusted enough to weigh a car accurately?
Or, how about this: actually contribute something to this debate for a change, and provide some data: do you have any data to indicate that a 211 E55 will, w/full tank (this is how both publications I listed weigh their cars), weigh in at anything substantially less than 4200 pounds?
Please provide one example of my twisting any numbers whatsoever in this thread, or in any other thread. I have not.
#241
jangy, there are several threads I found in the 211 E55 forum discussing weigh-in of the cars, wherein owners gave results of their weigh-ins.
First one is this thread, started by Fikse:
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/137332-e55-weigh-post-weight-options.html
E55 fuel tank = 21 gal. So 7/8 tank = 18.4 gal = 147 pounds. Spare tire: around 60. So, add 207 pounds to the two examples which weighed in w/no spare and 1/8 tank of gas.
First was Fikse, who reported 4070 with no spare and 1/8 tank. Adding 207 to give full tank and spare gives 4277 pounds.
Second was E55_baller, who reported a weigh in of 3995 with 1/8 tank and no spare. Adding 207 pounds to this gives a wet weigh in of 4202 pounds.
Third was Enzom, who reported "4340 with me in it and 1/3 tank of gas. My options are in my sig. I only weigh 155 lbs.". 2/3 tank of gas = 14 gal = 112 pounds. subtract Enzo from weight = 4185 pounds, add 112 for full tank = 4297 pounds.
Fourth was rflow306, who reported 4220 with no driver and 1/3 tank. Adding 112 pounds for full tank gives 4332 pounds.
Next thread was this one,
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/111630-how-much-does-she-weigh.html
Only one guy reported a weight, Stephen04E55, who gave track weigh-in at 4220lbs with a half a tank of gas, no driver. adding 10.5 gal = 84 pounds to make it a full tank gives wet weight of 4304 pounds.
Third thread was this one:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ghlight=weight
Unfortunately, only two owners responded, one being Stephen04E55 (already listed above from another thread), the other being E55Jay, but that was a W210.
Next thread:
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/120657-curb-weight-211-amg.html
AmenMercedesGo wrote: "My 2005 E55 weighed 4365 full of gas and I weigh 210 dressed.", which is not real clear as to whether he meant he was in it when he weighed it, but let's assume he was and had his spare in there, which gives 4155.
That's all I could find, if you can find more, post it.
Average weight for all cars above is 4261 pounds. Gee, this is very close to what those awful, corrupt, unreliable, cannot-be-trusted publications Car & Driver and Road & Track reported for *their* weighed-in-with-full-tank W211 E55s.
When I get time I will visit the Corvette forums and look into their reported weigh-ins as well.
First one is this thread, started by Fikse:
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/137332-e55-weigh-post-weight-options.html
E55 fuel tank = 21 gal. So 7/8 tank = 18.4 gal = 147 pounds. Spare tire: around 60. So, add 207 pounds to the two examples which weighed in w/no spare and 1/8 tank of gas.
First was Fikse, who reported 4070 with no spare and 1/8 tank. Adding 207 to give full tank and spare gives 4277 pounds.
Second was E55_baller, who reported a weigh in of 3995 with 1/8 tank and no spare. Adding 207 pounds to this gives a wet weigh in of 4202 pounds.
Third was Enzom, who reported "4340 with me in it and 1/3 tank of gas. My options are in my sig. I only weigh 155 lbs.". 2/3 tank of gas = 14 gal = 112 pounds. subtract Enzo from weight = 4185 pounds, add 112 for full tank = 4297 pounds.
Fourth was rflow306, who reported 4220 with no driver and 1/3 tank. Adding 112 pounds for full tank gives 4332 pounds.
Next thread was this one,
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/111630-how-much-does-she-weigh.html
Only one guy reported a weight, Stephen04E55, who gave track weigh-in at 4220lbs with a half a tank of gas, no driver. adding 10.5 gal = 84 pounds to make it a full tank gives wet weight of 4304 pounds.
Third thread was this one:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ghlight=weight
Unfortunately, only two owners responded, one being Stephen04E55 (already listed above from another thread), the other being E55Jay, but that was a W210.
Next thread:
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/120657-curb-weight-211-amg.html
AmenMercedesGo wrote: "My 2005 E55 weighed 4365 full of gas and I weigh 210 dressed.", which is not real clear as to whether he meant he was in it when he weighed it, but let's assume he was and had his spare in there, which gives 4155.
That's all I could find, if you can find more, post it.
Average weight for all cars above is 4261 pounds. Gee, this is very close to what those awful, corrupt, unreliable, cannot-be-trusted publications Car & Driver and Road & Track reported for *their* weighed-in-with-full-tank W211 E55s.
When I get time I will visit the Corvette forums and look into their reported weigh-ins as well.
Last edited by Improviz; 05-21-2008 at 12:59 PM.
#242
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I wasn't necessarily saying aftermarket air filters. On a 500 hp car, aftermarket filters have shown to give about 8 to 10 whp. I suspect even slightly more for the Z06. But what about removing the air filters all together? Some people actually dyno without air filters and do show up to 22 whp and what's even more impressive is that they achieve much stronger numbers at the track than their usual average numbers.
[QUOTE=Improviz;2834698]Further, you're ignoring one vital piece of information: jangy himself said that the Z06 he ran had intake and exhaust mods. Therefore, if anything these UNDERSTATE the weight/hp numbers in the comparison we're discussing here.
Okay that part I missed. But maybe the Z06 owner did not adjust the ECU to account for the extra air flow. Or maybe something else we're missing.
but unfortunately, try comparing the rwtq of an M6 to a stock E55 some time, and then watch a race between them. rwhp is the better indicator, as power = work/time, indicating which car makes the most power over a time *period*. Torque is an instantaneous measurement. Races aren't, they're done over a period of time, which is why a Ferrari F430 can run 11's despite having far less torque than a Z06 or E55.
Even that calculator is not accurate enough. Consider Enzom's car: it dynoed at 419 whp (504 crank hp) but traps 117 to 118 which by your equation comes out to 558 hp. Enzom dynoed his car and even published the dyno sheets, and his car's dyno numbers fell in between the average stock E55 dyno range.
#243
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jangy, there are several threads I found in the 211 E55 forum discussing weigh-in of the cars, wherein owners gave results of their weigh-ins.
First one is this thread, started by Fikse:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=137332
E55 fuel tank = 21 gal. So 7/8 tank = 18.4 gal = 147 pounds. Spare tire: around 60. So, add 207 pounds to the two examples which weighed in w/no spare and 1/8 tank of gas.
First was Fikse, who reported 4070 with no spare and 1/8 tank. Adding 207 to give full tank and spare gives 4277 pounds.
Second was E55_baller, who reported a weigh in of 3995 with 1/8 tank and no spare. Adding 207 pounds to this gives a wet weigh in of 4202 pounds.
Third was Enzom, who reported "4340 with me in it and 1/3 tank of gas. My options are in my sig. I only weigh 155 lbs.". 2/3 tank of gas = 14 gal = 112 pounds. subtract Enzo from weight = 4185 pounds, add 112 for full tank = 4297 pounds.
Fourth was rflow306, who reported 4220 with no driver and 1/3 tank. Adding 112 pounds for full tank gives 4332 pounds.
Next thread was this one,
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=111630
Only one guy reported a weight, Stephen04E55, who gave track weigh-in at 4220lbs with a half a tank of gas, no driver. adding 10.5 gal = 84 pounds to make it a full tank gives wet weight of 4304 pounds.
Third thread was this one:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ghlight=weight
Unfortunately, only two owners responded, one being Stephen04E55 (already listed above from another thread), the other being E55Jay, but that was a W210.
Next thread:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120657
AmenMercedesGo wrote: "My 2005 E55 weighed 4365 full of gas and I weigh 210 dressed.", which is not real clear as to whether he meant he was in it when he weighed it, but let's assume he was and had his spare in there, which gives 4155.
That's all I could find, if you can find more, post it.
Average weight for all cars above is 4261 pounds. Gee, this is very close to what those awful, corrupt, unreliable, cannot-be-trusted publications Car & Driver and Road & Track reported for *their* weighed-in-with-full-tank W211 E55s.
When I get time I will visit the Corvette forums and look into their reported weigh-ins as well.
First one is this thread, started by Fikse:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=137332
E55 fuel tank = 21 gal. So 7/8 tank = 18.4 gal = 147 pounds. Spare tire: around 60. So, add 207 pounds to the two examples which weighed in w/no spare and 1/8 tank of gas.
First was Fikse, who reported 4070 with no spare and 1/8 tank. Adding 207 to give full tank and spare gives 4277 pounds.
Second was E55_baller, who reported a weigh in of 3995 with 1/8 tank and no spare. Adding 207 pounds to this gives a wet weigh in of 4202 pounds.
Third was Enzom, who reported "4340 with me in it and 1/3 tank of gas. My options are in my sig. I only weigh 155 lbs.". 2/3 tank of gas = 14 gal = 112 pounds. subtract Enzo from weight = 4185 pounds, add 112 for full tank = 4297 pounds.
Fourth was rflow306, who reported 4220 with no driver and 1/3 tank. Adding 112 pounds for full tank gives 4332 pounds.
Next thread was this one,
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=111630
Only one guy reported a weight, Stephen04E55, who gave track weigh-in at 4220lbs with a half a tank of gas, no driver. adding 10.5 gal = 84 pounds to make it a full tank gives wet weight of 4304 pounds.
Third thread was this one:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ghlight=weight
Unfortunately, only two owners responded, one being Stephen04E55 (already listed above from another thread), the other being E55Jay, but that was a W210.
Next thread:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120657
AmenMercedesGo wrote: "My 2005 E55 weighed 4365 full of gas and I weigh 210 dressed.", which is not real clear as to whether he meant he was in it when he weighed it, but let's assume he was and had his spare in there, which gives 4155.
That's all I could find, if you can find more, post it.
Average weight for all cars above is 4261 pounds. Gee, this is very close to what those awful, corrupt, unreliable, cannot-be-trusted publications Car & Driver and Road & Track reported for *their* weighed-in-with-full-tank W211 E55s.
When I get time I will visit the Corvette forums and look into their reported weigh-ins as well.
Last edited by MB_Forever; 05-21-2008 at 02:41 PM.
#244
I wasn't necessarily saying aftermarket air filters. On a 500 hp car, aftermarket filters have shown to give about 8 to 10 whp. I suspect even slightly more for the Z06. But what about removing the air filters all together? Some people actually dyno without air filters and do show up to 22 whp and what's even more impressive is that they achieve much stronger numbers at the track than their usual average numbers.
#245
I know you used 18% drivetrain loss (which is okay), but most people here use 17%, so I'll go with 17% . So 469 hp - 17% loss = 389 whp. Unfortunately, the E55 does fall in a wide range of numbers. I've seen quite a big difference in dynos ranging from 390 whp all the way to 425 whp. The E55's ECU is more complex than others, and even changing adaptations of the TCU somehow affects ECU map and shows difference in dynos as well. But here we're comparing one specific E55 to an "average" stock Z06.
But anyway, this is getting to be a side issue, as we're discussing jangy's car, which dyno'd at 503 rwhp. I only mentioned the 430 to point out that E55s are rated at 469, which given the vehicles' trap speeds and dynos that we've seen pretty much everyone here agrees is a ridiculously low number...and again, this itself was to show that using the Z06s factory rated number and "estimate" a dyno figure is not necessarily the best way to go, as there are plenty of stock dynos out there, and we *really* don't know what their driveline loss is (nor do we, for that matter, w/Benz ).
For example, some people consider the air filter mod to be stock while others don't.
Yes, but why not until you provide evidence that they are stock, I see no reason to believe it. Anyone can post anything on dragtimes, almost nothing is verified. I can create an account, post some times and some dyno sheets from any car and even dyno videos and it would still not be verified
The thing is, though, that since neither of us has any proof that either jangy's tuner posted an unrepresentative dyno, or that the Z06 dynos presented were not fraudulent, then unless you can give some reason better than a hypothetical to dismiss them, I see no reason to dismiss them.
Further, you're ignoring one vital piece of information: jangy himself said that the Z06 he ran had intake and exhaust mods. Therefore, if anything these UNDERSTATE the weight/hp numbers in the comparison we're discussing here.
Different magazines will report different numbers depending on whether they favor the manufacturer or due to business agreements. Over on the C32 forums, I remember posting 5 different magazine sources showing the 0-60 times of the BMW 335 ranging from 4.8 to 5.2 seconds. Now that's a big difference.
Again: if you have some reason to rule out the Z06 dynos and not jangy's fine, but otherwise this is an apples-to-estimated-oranges comparison.
On freeway runs, the dynamic changes a bit for the E55 because it starts to dip shortly after it's "early" redline, but had it been designed to high rev to 8000 rpms, the difference in torque would stay longer in the rpm band and should overcome the M6 high speed superiority.
Which you were trying to argue it is, by comparing jangy's rwtq to a Z06s rwtq. Obviously, that argument simply does not hold water, because it fails to take into account mass, gearing, range of torque, range of engine rpm, and innumerable other factors.
The reason weight/hp is a good predictor of acceleration is that horsepower is work over time, making it a good number to plug into Sir Issac Newton's equation F=MA, or A = M/F. Here M is mass, F is force, and remarkably enough, this foundation of modern physics has managed to survive, unscathed, for the several hundred years which have elapsed since Sir Issac first proposed it.
But you're getting away from my original point. You cited torque as somehow being "the" deciding factor in a dragrace. It is not. Torque is an *instantaneous* measurement. To measure things over *time*, we look at the integral (calculus) of the power applied to accelerate the vehicle. So while a stock E55 makes far more torque than an F460, it isn't going to out accelerate it, at least not for long.
And yes, gearing is a factor too, never said it wasn't, but take a look at the gearing/final drive numbers for a Z06 and compare them to an E55. The Z has more agressive gearing *and* a lower final drive. This gives it more torque multiplication, so it can be faster despite having lower torque.
Or, if you're inclined: the E320 BT makes 400 ft-lb of torque, an M5 makes 369. Care to wager on which one would win? But if you compare horsepower, it's pretty obvious, which is why, again, weight/hp is the more reliable predictor: Sir Issac was right.
Even that calculator is not accurate enough. Consider Enzom's car: it dynoed at 419 whp (504 crank hp) but traps 117 to 118 which by your equation comes out to 558 hp. Enzom dynoed his car and even published the dyno sheets, and his car's dyno numbers fell in between the average stock E55 dyno range.
Also note that the numbers you're providing are SAE corrected, and I'm not sure if the ones we've seen running 430-ish were, but I'll have to check. Uncorrected, his numbers were a bit higher:
Originally Posted by Enzom
Car put down 419.11 rwhp and 455.82 rwtq. SAE corrected. These are about average for our cars. (Uncorrected, the numbers were 438.08 and 470.47, respectively.)
But again, to use the reasoning you cited earlier in your post: one could just as easily argue (which, for the record, I am NOT, only using this for an example) "well, Enzom's dyno could be phony, his slip could be phony, his car might not have been "really" stock down to the air filters, stock tire pressure, spare, yadda yadda ya...."....so, you know, with that sort of argument, there's not much to discuss, is there?
I mean, if you want to basically accept some data as totally factual but dismiss other evidence as false when both have equal proof, then how can you debate anything?
What I've done is, now that I've seen it, grant the same weight to jangy's dyno as I've granted to the Z06 owners' dynos, which is fair. What you're doing, to dismiss the Z06s dynos while accepting his, is neither fair nor logical, unless you can give some good reason why your argument should only cut one way, in favor of the Benz owner, rather than against him.
Anything else?
Last edited by Improviz; 05-21-2008 at 03:57 PM.
#246
I believe JRocket also weighted his car at around 4200 lbs, but a lot of these E55s come with options. My E63 weighed at 4240 with 70% fuel in the tank. But I think Mercedes' claim of 4050 is with standard equipment only. So we'll have to find an E55 without any additional options.
Says whom?
#247
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But anyway, this is getting to be a side issue, as we're discussing jangy's car, which dyno'd at 503 rwhp. I only mentioned the 430 to point out that E55s are rated at 469, which given the vehicles' trap speeds and dynos that we've seen pretty much everyone here agrees is a ridiculously low number...and again, this itself was to show that using the Z06s factory rated number and "estimate" a dyno figure is not necessarily the best way to go, as there are plenty of stock dynos out there, and we *really* don't know what their driveline loss is (nor do we, for that matter, w/Benz ).
I mentioned "air filter mod" which can be "any" modification to the air filter. Using different ones, using custom ones, or not using one at all, etc....
Well, if you want to go that route, there's no proof other than the tuner's word, who does, you will hopefully admit, have a conflict of interest in that higher numbers = better sales (not accusing them, just pointing out the obvious) w/jangy's car. So one could just as easily cite this as reason not to believe that either, but again: where does that leave it?
The reason weight/hp is a good predictor of acceleration is that horsepower is work over time, making it a good number to plug into Sir Issac Newton's equation F=MA, or A = M/F. Here M is mass, F is force, and remarkably enough, this foundation of modern physics has managed to survive, unscathed, for the several hundred years which have elapsed since Sir Issac first proposed it.
But you're getting away from my original point. You cited torque as somehow being "the" deciding factor in a dragrace. It is not. Torque is an *instantaneous* measurement. To measure things over *time*, we look at the integral (calculus) of the power applied to accelerate the vehicle. So while a stock E55 makes far more torque than an F460, it isn't going to out accelerate it, at least not for long.
Consider the race between the 997 GT2 and Z06 in the following video:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallp...AR=231915&CT=V
Both cars are similarly powered and weight the same yet one easily destroys the other. And this difference will show on your calculator yet they are very close in hp.
Also also note that Enzom's 118 mph runs were done in 52 degree weather, while his dyno results were SAE corrected to Air temp 77 deg F (25 deg C), 29.235 Inches- Hg (990 mb) altitude-corrected barometric pressure, 0 ft ( 0 m) altitude, 0% relative humidity. A 25 degree drop in temperature will result in higher horsepower, and thus, a faster trap. So, to give a truly accurate number, you'd need to correct his trap speed with the proper temp/pressure/humidity data from that day. This will account for some of the error in the hp calculator, which is, of course, supposed to reflect SAE-adjusted hp.
But again, to use the reasoning you cited earlier in your post: one could just as easily argue (which, for the record, I am NOT, only using this for an example) "well, Enzom's dyno could be phony, his slip could be phony, his car might not have been "really" stock down to the air filters, stock tire pressure, spare, yadda yadda ya...."....so, you know, with that sort of argument, there's not much to discuss, is there?
But that's NOT equal proof. Maybe similar but definitely not equal. Jangy's car can be dynoed at any time; you can come watch it on the dyno, and verify it yourself. It also has been verified by very well respected members on the boards while the dragtimes Z06 times (up to now) are unknown. Anybody can post them.
#248
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Because Mercedes defines curb weight as weight with standard equipment (does not include ANY options).
According to members here, all 2003 E55s had no navigation and no spare (except Presidential edition came with Navi but not sure about spare). Please run a search.....
According to members here, all 2003 E55s had no navigation and no spare (except Presidential edition came with Navi but not sure about spare). Please run a search.....
Last edited by MB_Forever; 05-21-2008 at 07:07 PM.
#249
I agree.... no body really knows the drivetrain loss unless they dyno the engine at the crank then dyno at the wheels, but we can estimate an amount. Most experts seem to agree on 15% loss for manual and 20% loss for "regular" automatic. For high performance automatics like our AMGs, it is estimated to be 17 to 18% which is better than "regular" automatics, but still not as good as manual.
Shoot, at one time lots of people would have "vouched" for jangy's dear friend Eric Fletcher, and, well, we all know how *that* turned out.
OK?
I was citing measured rwtq on jangy's dyno vs. the C6 Z06 dyno. What you're doing is citing measured rwtq from jangy's dyno and then *calculating*, using an *estimated* driveline loss figure, what *you* think the Z06 *should* be getting.
Big difference.
We don't know how much hp the car he raced actually has. But anyways, assuming the stock Z06 makes 505 hp and 470 tq at the crank, then how come you drop the hp to 440 to get the wheels but the torque to only 440. The hp dropped 65 hp but torque dropped only 20 to 30 hp.
Well, I'll read it again, but I don't recall anyone listed in that thread you provided, and jangy has already said that he wasn't present. But even if it was, this hardly proves that the dynos at dragtimes.com were not.
So were the E55s ahead to at least 115 mph? From countless 1/4 mile times on here, m5boards, and dragtimes, we know that in the 1/4 mile, the E55 puts at least 2 to 3 car lengths to an average speed of 114 mph. That would mean, the M5 made up the difference between 15 mph.
Beyond that speed, the gearing advantage of the M cars allow them to pull away, because after that point, the superior torque multiplication of their gearing overcomes the E55's to-that-point relative parity in torque-to-the-wheels once the E55's engine runs out of steam in third and its torque multiplication in fourth drops off sharply.
Also, you're forgetting that the horsepower of these cars is the same. I've asked you this once, and I'll ask again: why cannot a 400 lb-ft E320 BT outrun a 369 lb-ft M5?
Lastly, the science behind automobile acceleration is well-established, and I'm really not inclined to waste an entire afternoon going back and forth about it with you ad infinitum. If you want to understand what I'm trying to say, read this, it explains it very well:
Torque and horsepower: a primer
Otoh, we know it to be modded (per jangy), so why are you not accounting for this in your hypothetical numbers? ItallianStallion pointed out that an air intake gives 10-15 rwhp, and jangy said the guy had intake mods.
Did you factor that in?
No.
Jangy said the car had exhaust mods, probably good for another 20-30 rwhp.
Did you factor that in?
No.
So you're using ideal stock numbers to calculate data for what jangy has said is a modded car. If you want to do it that way, you should at least give the thing another 30-45 rwhp to be halfway fair. Don't you think?
Consider the race between the 997 GT2 and Z06 in the following video:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallp...AR=231915&CT=V
http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallp...AR=231915&CT=V
Motor Trend tested a GT2 and ran a 11.4 @ 127.9 in it, which is definitely faster than they got in the Z06 they tested...not enough for a margin like that, but they've got competent test drivers.
Also bear in mind that standing-start, P-cars have a huge advantage thanks to having most of the weight over the real wheels, so they can be launched more agressively than the 'vette, and if you add LC to that mix, it's a pretty huge advantage off the line, especially when matched up against a clearly underpowered example...there are plenty of tests in Europe and here of Z06s running faster than that, and check out Fifth Gear's Z06 test to see how the two cars' lap times compared there--with the same driver.
Unfortunately, we're talking about a rolling-start race between jangy and the vette, not a standing start where one car has an enormous traction advantage over the other and where (in your vid) the other is clearly a weak example.
As to driver skill, I've said from the beginning, if the Z06 driver in question drove incompetently, of course jangy could have won. What I'm saying is that with a well-driven Z, this would not have happened as he described it. And, with all due respect, so far nobody has presented anything that shows that it should have happened as described, excluding egregeous driver error.
Lastly, as to the calculator: Motor Trend tested a GT2 and ran a 11.4 @ 127.9 in it, which is a bit faster than they got in the Z06 they tested. And my handy-dandy calculator gives me (w/150 pound driver) about 540 hp, 10 over rated, i.e. within 2% of rated. Not bad!
No?
So why assume this to be so, then? It *could* happen, but one would have to investigate them, in turn, before simply dismissing them out of hand simply because of a maybe!
But that's NOT equal proof. Maybe similar but definitely not equal. Jangy's car can be dynoed at any time; you can come watch it on the dyno, and verify it yourself. It also has been verified by very well respected members on the boards while the dragtimes Z06 times (up to now) are unknown. Anybody can post them.
Yet you are acting as though it has been, and there's simply no reason to presume this is true.
#250
jangy's.
Is jangy's car a stripper with no options?
No.
So I ask again, why is this relevant?
jangy's car is not a 2003, it is a 2006, so this too is irrelevant.