AMGSC

It's been confirmed...I lost another 20% of CR on cylinders 5 and 7. Should I get a second opinion since he told me this by phone? I'm getting a detailed quote from Vadim as I type. Basically an engine overhaul with upgraded components, lower CR but keeping the same displacment because replicating the Nikasil coating on the cyclinder walls is difficult according to Vadim but I just found a bunch of websites that offer Nikasil re-coating. Here's a link
http://kustom-kraft.com/

He advised against the QTurbos (over $10K) for now until we get the motor healthy again. Downtime about 4-8 weeks. Time to ride my Ducati again!

SLK55R

HUH? First they do Havoc's car and increase the displacement to 5.7 ... obviously they didn't put a nicasyl coating on Havoc's cylinder walls ... they probably just sleeved it. Why wouldn't they just do the same for you?

My opinion ... send it to colorado and get it done right. You have wasted untold amounts of money on this car already. Why not get it done right the first time?
To be honest I"m shocked that Kleemann even sold you a supercharger on that wreck of an engine. Instead of mixing and matching different tuners, at this point, I'd stick with one to get it all sorted out.

AMGSC

I'm in contact with Cory all the time including today. He trusts VRP even though they are direct competitors in some areas. The engine was definitely damaged by HPS and not by VRP. However, I must say that the Kleemann SC Twin-Screw kit is pretty awesome in being able to put down a minimum of 450rwtq and 444rwhp as verified by Vadim on a dynojet even on a severly crippled engine to begin with. I have not given up on VRP. They are local, reputable and revolutionary. I simply cannot get custom tuning out of Colorado Springs without major inconvenience.

BENZGal

You know POS ECU software= running rich=8 scorched cylinders=40k engine lost with 20k miles + cost of original mods+ cost of new block+ cost of new mods. Just a day in the park for me. LOL

It's all good, my new engine will be faster, unique, SAFE, weigh less, lower temps, parts heat coated, and the best ECU program around. I should have done it right the first time! A/F ratio's are nothing to mess with!!!!! I was told running a little rich is safer than running lean, but what happens when your fuel washes down all that oil? See above. LOL The ECU is the most important mod as far as I am concerned! I just can't wait to get my foot on that throttle.

Vadim @ FD

Let me confirm that one cylinder was down before we even started. The second one was weak, and now both are down 30 psi vs. the others.

Robert and I discussed this prior to having used Kleeman installed on the car. Were we planning to build up the engine eventually.

As much as 5.7L is alluring, it is out of budget.

I set the car up at high 10 to mid 10s AFR to be safe with 11:1CR and 8 psi. The dyno graph is in Roberts signature. I will repost a better picture later.

blackbenzz

Damn, that sucks! What software were you running and what did your afr's look like?

Havoc

My case was a little different. My engine was totally stock with only 17K miles on her and ran perfect with no issues what so ever. I wanted to install a lot of mods with the addition of some serious boost, but I didn’t trust my bottom to last. So I, not VRP, chose the 5.7L to avoid engine damage later.

rflow306

Timing most likely killed your engine, the rich afr's are a product of the ecu correcting.

BENZGal

It did suck, but the end result is a car that is faster and safer. I am just like all the other HP/TQ junkies and that turned my frown into a smile. I plan on posting pics of the old engine and a video when my car is done. I don't want to hijack his thread.

rflow306,
Thanks for the feedback. I know what happened to my car, and it can't be summed up in the few sentences above. To prevent a hijack and the whole story, I will refrain until my car is done.

AMGSC

Based on talking to Vadim, This is what may have happenned. Vadim's dyno was done last Thursday and he dropped off my car on Friday. He emailed me the dyno showing 11:1 AFR. I take the car down to JBA in SD for an independent dyno but along the way my CEL comes on again (caused by the Kleemann headers). Vadim has acknowledged having a problem turning it off permanently.

Here are the possible root causes of my 14.X AFR aborted dyno result and subsequent further engine damage discovered today witht the compression test.

A) The CEL may have caused the ECU to adjust AFR to lean it out since it thinks the Cats are not working.

B) The Dyno-Dynamics equipment was malfunctioning, i.e sensors not reading correctly. However, the guy at the shop told me they replace the sensors regularly and it's a very busy shop. It would have been discovered much earlier that day since I arrived at JBA at 2pm behind other customers. Furthermore an ODB II scan later that afternoon indicated bank 1 was lean also? confirming the JBA dyno results. VRP told me this was because of further detonation caused by the improper dyno.

C) The fans were too small and the car was run in 4th gear which caused overheating, therefore detonation (I did not hear anything strange - listen to video clip posted above) but smelled something although my friend said it was the tires rubbing against the rollers when the operator stepped on the brakes and not from exhaust pipes. Shouldn't weak air flow result in rich AFR rather than lean? Cory said dyno in 4th was fine and that it tends to make a bit more power. I've also heard that its 1 to 1 gear ratio and the best measure of power.

D) I dyno'd the car with 91 octane while Vadim dyno'd with 100 octane. I did not know this Should'nt the dyno be done based on real world driving conditions and pump gas? If he did'nt feel 91 was safe for a WOT dyno, what makes him think I won't drive like that on the track on highway? He said he did not tune for 91 but used 100?

I guess one side of me is glad that I get to upgrade my car further but the other side of me (where my wallet is) is a little frustrated that the CEL caused by the Kleemann headers my have caused further damage to my weak but still drivable motor. I somehow feel either Kleemann or VRP should be somewhat responsible for this. Why sell and/or install a product if you can't get it to run right??? If the O2 sensor error does not affect the ECU or cause it to make adjustments to the AFR then I stand corrected and it's not root cause A).

Is there somebody knowledgeable here that can make sense of what the root cause is for the 14.X AFRs which caused further damage on Saturday?

I really respect and trust VRP but before I drop another $7-10K with them, I like to get some more feedback on this situation. The other option is to pay even more and have Kleemann take over the entire engine rebuild and fix the O2 sensor problem permanantly. I am really lost and confused right now.

SLK55R

Its no surprise this is happening now ...

My take is simple :

1. It should have been communicated to you that your tune is for 100octane.
2. It should have been communicated that the dyno was done with 100octane.
3. With a CEL you should NOT have dyno'd your car
if any new damage occurred from the dyno (it is YOUR fault)
who maxes out a car knowing something is wrong???
4. A CEL from headers is NOT acceptable.
VRP should be partially responsible because they let you leave with your car KNOWING that the CEL issue was NOT resolved.

VRP should not have taken your car as a client without a very clear understanding that any engine issues that occur are NOT VRP's responsibility due to the damage already incurred by the previous tuner.

Btw just a little thing ... your cats are working ... its O2sensors and ecu that isn't working well together.

AMGSC

Thanks for the objective feedback!

My friend (Car expert who designed the original ASP pulley and sold the rights) was driving my car to test it when the CEL came on. He did not warn me about going through with the dyno. I guess that makes us both idiots?

Vadim @ FD

Yes, he knows

Please read the thread before posting what has been answered before.

mkonei

from vrps postings earlier this week, his car was tuned for pump gas, not 100 octane. dynos are rough on engines, and 100 octane in the tank is cheap insurance against detonation for the operator. that is just the difference between the way two operators make pulls, but it does not appear that it was required. i would rather be safe than sorry personally. i would never dyno a car with a CEL light on though either

SLK55R

I know they said its tuned for 91 ... I just want to know how they tuned on 91.

I'm assuming they were tuning with a DYNO. Or were they doing all the tuning on 91 octane on the local roads doing data logs?

Perhaps I jumped to a conclusion and assumed that they were tuning on the dyno which would mean they were running on 100 octane. Again, perhaps they finished the tune, then did the specific calculations for that specific brand of 100 octane to reduce the tuning for A/F ratio. Seems a little complicated to me. Most likely they did just tune on the local roads doing full throttle runs on 91 and then dyno'd on 100.

Personally I always run on 100 just to be on the safe side. It has been tuned for 100 octane but its not a max HP tune.

Btw Vadim your comment of not enough airflow on the dyno just means to me you are tuning it right to the edge. Some customers want that I guess but it should be clear. As to the CEL are you implying that just those specific O2 sensors were faulty? OR are you implying that Kleemann still hasn't resolved a CEL with their headers? I know of at least one Kleemann car that was still showing CELs when you pulled the codes. But the light wouldn't come on.

Also Vadim regarding my last comment ... I knew the answer already. I was just bringing it up again so that AMGSC would clearly understand that no one is going to be liable except himself. Personally if I know that a cylinder was already POOR and another was failing ... I wouldn't throw on a supercharger unless I rebuilt the engine. By not rebuilding the motor you are just asking for trouble. To me this is just lack of judgement.

AMGSC

Does the O2 sensors trigger to the ECU to adapt to a lean AFR setting?

I would appreciate answers from Certified Mercedes Technicians, Professional MB tuners and possibly mechanical/electrical engineers only. I will not reply but only read silently out of respect for others.

I'm now going to take this off-line and decide which direction I'm going to go.

Thanks all! I hope some of you can relate from my experience and learn a bit more about what to do and NOT do with our prized posessions.

My next car is going to stay STOCK! Just buy the most powerful stock car out there and don't mod unless you know a lot about cars yourself. Lesson learned...The Hard Way.

psk145

man, I dont know the whole story, but it sounds like you have a handful. You are a patient man though!

I know the feeling somewhat, but I dont think my costs/downtime/issues were as extensive as yours. Years ago, Vadim swapped a bmw 3.2l M3 engine into my 325i after the RMS tuning for the supercharger popped the engine.

Hope you get it all straightned out soon!

psk145

I said the same exact thing when I bought a C32. Modded out that car. Said the same thing again when I bought the E55....

Its like crack. Its never going to happen. We all know it You need to buy a POS, that way there's no upgrades available!!

JamE55

Already learned that from your original 100+ page HPS thread! Thanks.

Your next car won't be stock. You'll always find something to change. If not the engine then the aesthetic part of it. But it's ok since it's a way of a car enthusiasts life.

jangy

Wow, isn't it interesting how SLK55r and I are always on opposite sides? Homey needs to check who he hangs with . Defective sensors (whats the odds that 2 were bad?) or defective technical support? Nice question

AMGSC, I feel for you for having dumped $ and tried so hard and yet not getting the car right. I swear I do, but you need to take some responsibility for the car's "life". Go look up your own previous posts and tell me why Vadim and PC even took you in? Dip SLK55r wants to act all mighty saying Vadim should never have taken the car or that kleeman can fix it or whatever, but you and I both know you were lucky to even have them try. Like a prior member posted, you should never have pushed the motor with dead cylinders. You should simply have rebuilt first, unless you were simply buying parts and waiting for the motor to blow? Either way, how can you blame VRP?

AMGSC

If money/price is NOT a factor, how would you rank the following tuners in rebuilding and radically upgrading the motor itself?

1) Brabus
2) Kleemann
3) Renntech
4) Evosport
5) VRP
6) Mechtech Motorsports
7) MKB
8) ??? Your other choice.

If money/price is a factor how would the ranking change?

I definitely want equal or better quality parts than OEM AMG, possibly more displacement, lower compression but extremely high output, EFFECTIVE yet SAFE TUNING and service reliability backed by a warranty. I also don't want games being played with bait and switch tactics (i.e. found more damage after engine removal, etc..). A bore scope and other methods to determine the extent of the damage such as scorched nikasil cylinder walls needing new a block should not be discovered later. Finally I don't want to wait 3 months or longer to get the entire job done.

One thing about Brabus is that they are local and the most well-known for engine upgrades/rebuilds but the quality and reliability may justify the prices.

jangy

If money were no object, I'd send it to AMG. Brabus is the ony one I know of that has been displacing motors for some time, but understand that doing that will make it less reliable. It is like anything with precision. the more intricate, the more the maintenance. Think of it like a race motor. they are strong, but need rebuilds very often.

If money were an object, I would have Vadim work on it.

AMGSC

I may have to sell some stock but the assurance of having a warranty with the engine rebuild as well as the Prestige of a Brabus 7.0 under my hood could be well worth it especially if my engine is toast anyway. My encumbent not being able to Nikasil coat after the rebuild worries me.

SLK55R

saying a brabus motor is less reliable than a Renntech/Kleemann/Carlsson modified E55 motor is just STUPID.

jangy

I wasn't even considering RennTech/Kleeman/Carlsson. Honestly, i already said i wouldn't do it. It isn't worth the money. Buy a new C63 and move on. Now, why wouldn't i go with them? Because they haven't even shown good tuning on the OEM cars, much less a build up. I never liked how Kleeman handles their high end clients and all the issues are too much. Just too many CELs. RennTech has lost their focus and is simply concerned with MB dealership sales. Carlsson makes wheels. Heck, their ELM is still analogue. Keep laughing bro. The Shine has worn off of that penny. They want back in, they gotta win over the enthusiasts and not just the spenders.