Originally Posted by Worth the wait

Thanks for pointing that out. Probably should have taken a breath before I posted..lol. Could have sworn it said he was waiting for the dyno on the newest tune...my bad.

Originally Posted by Tony@Eurocharged

Guys I must apologize for going off the deep end here I got caught up in the frustration of people claiming what they know especially when they have never tuned a European car in there lives, the rule of thumb give the car what it likes not what you think it should have.

This will be my last post on this subject because no matter how much people point fingers or say what ever they please to try and shine some light it will just get worse and worse. I will step aside and let the pros here battle it out and ones the proper info is posted on why the engine gave way only then I will speak out.

Also the lawyer thing was taken out of context again, Jerry simply stated until the causes of this get cleared I will make sure my lawyers are involved. Not saying we are going to sue him if he posts, he had every right to do so.

Good luck with this on going feud and I hope those that have taken this all in, have learned a thing or two.

P.S. I apologize for the mispelled words.

Originally Posted by ATL_MB

First off, I want to thank the OP for posting this. It seems that he is trying to be reasonable to both LET and the members of the forum. But while it is extremely interesting that the motor blew just 80 miles after the tune, that does not mean that the tune caused the problem. Lots of people drop dead within days of getting a check up - that usually doesn't mean the doctor was incompetent. However, I am very interested in hearing a professional opinion of what happened -- it seems to me that only the person that tore the engine down can render that opinion. As some have noted, there is a lot of missing information (condition of heads, valves, other cylinders, etc.) that could shed light on this. While it looks like a long shot right now, I hope that the outcome ends up being acceptable to all of the concerned parties.

Also, I find it odd that on most threads like this a lot of new people who have never been members before chime in with very strong opinions - while it may not be the case, it often seems as if these new members have a dog in the fight. When a new member speaks up as an "expert witness", it is reasonable for thread readers to wonder about these individuals' affiliations and experience. Especially since "There is no reason for secrecy in this situation either. Remember, if you post the truth, you cannot be sued. Do not be intimidated, it's your car and your right." (Of course, you can get sued for just about anything in this country.) So, if you are a new member and want your posts to be taken at face value, then you may want to post some credentials. Just my $.02.

I am not trying to stick up for anyone and I am certainly not taking sides - I just want to know who is who so I can weigh everyone's comments appropriately. (I am not a vendor or a tech or anything like that and I don't know anyone on this thread - I'm just a M-B enthusiast interested in knowing what really happened.)

Originally Posted by BenzoManNY

Well guys I haven’t posted in some time because I dumped my 07 E63 because the engine blew from bad cams and host of other crap, 17k miles. This is why I spent over an hour sifting through this entire thread My E63 and E55 were both STOCK when the engines went. I had one of the first 2003 E55K and the engine blew a connecting rod on the left bank with 4k miles on the clock. Videos used to be up on YouTube back in the day and that was also a bone stock car. I guess my luck isn’t the greatest with the Silver Star but thank God for the Lemon Law. This thread caught my eye because
I recently just ordered an SL63 and I can’t wait to get the car in May. Will I tune it possibly in the future and I will pay top dollar for peace of mind.

First and foremost and I mean this goes for each and everyone of you guys who modifies cars. You guys all choose LET/Eurocharged based on PRICE and not experience. There is no way in hell Jerry or Tony have more or equal experience tuning Mercedes Benz cars to the engineers at AMG, Kleeman, Renntech, Brabus or any other top tier tuner. No way sorry guys to bust your bubble but it’s the truth. I mean do you ever think Renntech, Brabus or MKB would ever stoop to the level of selling tunes for $500-$700? I mean guys the engines cost a fortune to repair and replace what can you possibly get. I had a Mercedes field Tech tell me a 63 engine alone was around 50k to replace yikes. Mercedes is very keen to ECU modifications even on my 07 E63 they gutted my car to see if my ECU was tampered with and thank God it wasn’t. My service rep showed me a ML63 that was tuned but a top tier tuner and the ECU case was butchered and the owners warranty voided. Not worth it guys.

My local dealer in NY few years back had a Renntech car with an engine failure and guess what guys? Renntech picked the car up in an enclosed trailer and fixed the engine now that’s warranty and support no wonder they have been in the game since the 1980’s

Problem is you pay for a “Flea Market Tune” and look at the results. I am sure the OP isn’t the only unsatisfied customer and LET/Eurocharged are not large enough to even help the poor guy even on their liability insurance. It’s a total joke. SO what; they can offer a tune that makes decent power cheap there has to be more added value to the equation to take the risk and I honestly feel bad for a lot of you guys.

I think everyone needs to realize you always get what you pay for and if its so cheap its always too good to be true. Its shame because some of you guys really love your cars and just want reliable parts. Look we have seen our fair share of vendor horror stories on the board and I think its time to go back to the drawing board, spend a bit more, work with a trusting company that will stand behind their product and not make excuses or just leave your cars bone stock its plain and simple. I think as a customer a warranty should be expressed in writing to each and everyone to hold its weight in any arbitration or court claim.

Oh one last thing if you guys want to be taken seriously LET/Eurocharged take out a good insurance policy and make things right. I still scratch my head why you guys do business under two names? Is this to shelter such client issues? I dont need to know but Good Luck to the OP and I will be following this thread to see who actually has a worthy business ethic as a supplier/vendor/

Nite nite all.

Originally Posted by MBVert

It's a lot easier for one shop to sue another (as far as a legitimate lawsuit goes) and prove loss of income than it is to sue a customer, so I'm afraid you'll just have to deal with my factual statements vs theirs. Do some homework, you'll see who's telling the truth and who's literally full of it. I've never met either party, but again from what has been posted it's VERY easy for anyone with even basic tuning experience to tell what happened to the motor in question. If you want to know what happened to this motor, read my first post in this thread, the laundry list of evidence that was pointed out has NOT been addressed by the tuner. You can always forward the pics onto another tuner that you know and trust to verify, in fact I think you should.

Originally Posted by BenzoManNY

I mean guys the engines cost a fortune to repair and replace what can you possibly get. I had a Mercedes field Tech tell me a 63 engine alone was around 50k to replace yikes. Mercedes is very keen to ECU modifications even on my 07 E63 they gutted my car to see if my ECU was tampered with and thank God it wasn’t. My service rep showed me a ML63 that was tuned but a top tier tuner and the ECU case was butchered and the owners warranty voided. Not worth it guys.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

Agree 100% with this; clients need to carefully explain their goals, and hopefully the tuner listens. Trying for world-record track times is one thing, having a solid DD is another. They're not mutually exclusive, but close.

Originally Posted by citylightva

And we should just suppose you are an expert because you say so..???

Originally Posted by BenzoManNY

I recently just ordered an SL63 and I can’t wait to get the car in May. Early Congrats, Great Choice

Problem is you pay for a “Flea Market Tune” and look at the results.

Originally Posted by malakasnyc

Im with u , Crackerjack box tuners just equal trouble . Stick to the tops in the game not the ones trying to make a name and u should be ok . And for the money IMO u cant beat a Kleemann tune .

Originally Posted by Eurocharged

I do understand where your coming from you would still be wondering
But we did also offer to have another shop take a look at it and again it was denied


Greg

Originally Posted by blackbenzz

Some of us don't like to get raped for tuning but that doesn't make it a flea market tune. Look how much tunes cost for other cars, why do the big name MB tuners charge so much more? Alot of Renntechs products are MB/AMG parts just slightly modified. I learned that a longgg time ago when I bought a Renntech c/f intake. It is a stock box with a c/f top half Then the million dollar 82mm TB that is a stock factory part with an adapter plate and some modification. Just because some people like to bend over and take it with no lube doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by blackbenzz

Im going for records and drive my car quite frequently. Actually, I would say most board members are the same way

Originally Posted by Worth the wait

This is getting r-goddamnn-diculous....

The OP went in search of MORE power, was running a BOX tune with ZERO knowledge of AFR, timing, boost or even torque. He openly raced the car with several WOT pulls to redline without ever putting the car on the dyno or doing any data-logging.

And it blew up....shocking!

I am not saying it should have blown up...just that he had NO way of knowing it wouldn't. Trying to push the limits (which he was clearly doing) and get 100 or more whp than AMG intended is risky. Usually you take precautions to avoids the risk - things like dyno time and data logging.

The only thing EC is doing wrong is handing out shelf tunes like there there as safe as dyno tuning. I am not saying a stage one box tune, with just a pulley should require a dyno, but when things get to this level a dyno should be mandatory!

And BTW....every tuner has blood on their hands. We ask for more, more, more than want to point fingers at the ones who provide it.

To the OP, I am truly sorry and good luck with everything. This sucks, believe me I know!

Originally Posted by blackbenzz

What if I told you I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and posted a receipt

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

The tuning and mod preferences of someone who wants a rock-solid reliable DD can set different criteria and priorities than someone who chases owning track records. IMO.

Originally Posted by citylightva

And we should just suppose you are an expert because you say so..???

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

Most? Gotta disagree with you on that one - there's over 140 thousand members on this board. And maybe a dozen or so guys who're chasing any major records. That's a pretty tiny fraction.

In any event, I meant no disrespect, and did say the two aren't mutually exclusive - but, when you're gunning for the ragged edge of performance potential while chasing records, you're probably going to break things along the way - trannys, axles, diffs, etc... motors too, although hopefully not.

The tuning and mod preferences of someone who wants a rock-solid reliable DD can set different criteria and priorities than someone who chases owning track records. IMO.

Originally Posted by citylightva

Oh my god, that was great ...Then I would at your every word...

Originally Posted by 220S

+1

That's the way it's always been. People will devote a "project" car for the track and have a DD for everyday.

They are two different objectives. Why risk a project car on the street or a DD on the track?

Originally Posted by MBVert

Based on the pictures posted my opinion on the most probable cause this motor met it's demise was quite simply Detonation--too much timing. This is and has been the conclusion of every reputable tuner that's come across these pictures as well. There are several tell tale signs of detonation (which is caused by running too much timing advance) this motor shows all of them. Hot spot in center of piston between the exhaust valves (that would've been a hole, not a shiny spot, had this motor continue to run), melted plug electrode, hell there's even a hole in the sleeve and you burnt clean through the ringland past the rings. There could literally be no more OBVIOUS answer to this question. What would be great to see? Show some pictures of the heads, the valves and more importantly the seats. Detonation has a way of beating the crap out of the seats by causing the valves to slam into them. They may even be loose to the touch after long periods of detonation. Regardless though, just based on what's been posted in this thread the cause is crystal clear. As for my background: Yes I have seen the inside of a ME2.8 (that has zero relevance to this discussion as well) however I don't tune European vehicles, just domestic using mainstream hardware as well as standalones like Big Stuff III, FAST DFI, etc. I have tuned countless positive displacement blower applications including 2v,3v,4v with Roots, TVS, and Twin Screw blowers. Most make 600rw+ some into the 4 digit range. I'm responsible for over 600 tuned motors, quite a few of them pure race, and NOT ONE has ever popped due to detonation. So yes, I'm prepared to back my statements with real world experience should it be called into question. Other things worth noting, you NEVER bend a rod due to detonation, in fact the ONLY time you'll ever bend a rod is due to hydralock or if a valve drops and there is PtV which causes a catastrophic failure to the extent that you will window the block. Even posting that as a potential reason for failure is an obvious and misleading digression. SRTs running 16:1 A/Fs ???? I don't care if they're N/A, at WOT that's just NOT acceptable. Remember, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Anything over 12.5:1 on pump gas and you're on borrowed time with a PD blown motor. I run my PD cals in the 11.4-11.6:1 range because the extra fuel helps cool the incoming aircharge (which heats up significantly in PD applications). I cringe anytime I see a 12:1 A/F with PD without Race gas. Unlike pump gas, race gas is formulated with the same ingredients and percentages everytime, pump gas has NO set ingredient list meaning what you get from station to station varies, let alone brand to brand or state to state. For this reason alone you can get far more aggressive with race gas files, however I still won't go over 12.5:1 even on leaded (the real stuff) race fuel. For anyone to say that plug change intervals need to be 3-5k miles, you're simply dreaming. This is not a NHRA blown alcohol funny car motor--yes I've helped tear them down and build them as well between passes. Also as far as the gentlemen with the former N/A motor now supercharged and the reference made to the original file by the tuner and it being safe by comparison...You do realize he is now running as posted 10lbs of boost on top of that high compression N/A bottom end. The timing advance posted is more than I run on 50% of the N/A motors I tune. Someone's got some serious cojones to run 24 degrees of advance or more at WOT on that bottom end, especially on pump gas. INEXCUSABLE. I would not have posted however what I see this tuner doing (blaming everyone but themselves) and posting misleading information about tuning in general is just not right. It makes everyone look at the aftermarket in a different/worse light. Own up to what you've done, I'm sure you have commercial liability insurance, we all do, USE it. I have also been told (by the vehicle owners themselves) this is NOT an isolated incident and that "at least" a handful of other AMG E55 2003-2006 cars have also "LET" go in the recent past--all were tuned by the same tuner. Vehicle owners should NOT be afraid (even if threatened with false legal means) to post their truthful and honest take on what happened to their motors. We don't see this on the vette/viper/ford boards, if someone blows a motor, everyone in the world knows that day. There is no reason for secrecy in this situation either. Remember, if you post the truth, you cannot be sued. Do not be intimidated, it's your car and your right.

Originally Posted by Eurocharged

I do understand where your coming from you would still be wondering
But we did also offer to have another shop take a look at it and again it was denied

Also if you look in the past with the last car that something happened we went ahead and took full responsibility and replaced everything at our cost

We were also the ones who looked over the car and found out what happened . Did we keep it a secret???? NO we let everyone know what happened when it was posted on the forums and stood behind our work

On the other note it is amazing that you "MBVERT" would pick today to sign up as i never seen you on the boards and claim that Tony is not a certified tuner how would you know this ??? when you just joined today??? when he has all documentation and has been tuning for over 6 years

Why dont you tell us who you really are instead of hiding behind the new name

Greg

Originally Posted by MBVert

There is no need for you or anyone to know my name or shop affiliation. I'm simply here to post facts. Based on the data provided the reasoning behind the failure of this motor is clear as day. Fact: A certified master tuner wouldn't run 24+ degrees of advance at WOT with 10psi on a N/A bottom end. A certified master tuner doesn't cause motors to fail, he makes them last. A certified master tuner wouldn't bring up a broken rod as a potential problem of detonation. A certified master tuner wouldn't reference anything 16:1 A/F. I'm here to post my experience on the facts, so let's talk facts.

Originally Posted by MBVert

You don't have to take my word for anything, just look at the facts/pictures presented. If you know what you're looking at they speak volumes. Notice how "Tony" conveniently avoided answering any of the issues I brought up about clear cut signs of detonation? There are several reputable tuners in the DFW area, show them the thread/pics and ask them their opinion.

Originally Posted by blackbenzz

Thats not true. I drive my car very often as well as many of the other fastest MB's. Who builds a MB race car anyway?

Originally Posted by 220S

But you have other cars, right? If something went wrong it's not your DD. That's what I meant. I have mine as a DD and I won't be doing any mods, I prefer 100% peace of mind and 100% warranty. I have a Porsche for the track and for driving "very often" during the week and weekends. If it blows up then that's the way it goes. But I can still get around.