citylightva

Yeah I agree, between 11 and 12 AFR is a good safe range. I have no idea about timing on the 55's...

TopGun32

good info.

do you know where the AFR is most important.. i would think it would be at peak HP point of the curve.

I have seen dyno plots.. where the AFR starts at 14 (starts the pull) and tapers to 12 at the peak HP. Is this ok?

Thericker

Yes, & normal...

sneakyneon

I think on a dyno it depends on load and gear you use but in what i see on most cars including the 55 is that its lean in first gear for most of the gear but levels out by the shift and will stay pretty flat untill the shifts were it might have another small lean spot but I think the most important is 3rd and 4th gear were load is high and duration of the pull is longest. If that makes sense.
Keep in mind a dyno dose not simulate real world driving. You need to be checking your car in the worst situation.
Again I'm not an expert or a tuner.

Roseylv

To the OP, sorry for your troubles and I hope all works out!

I Should probably start a new thread about this idea but I might as well brain storm in this monster of a thread.

Instead of everyone going out to buy Dataloggers....maybe, just maybe
the community can own one.

Think about it. An MBworld.org datalogger for the community. People basically lease the unit for short period of time and then send it off to whom ever wants it.

Thoughts?

I know I need to log but I don't want to spend $400 + on one.

Better yet, can I lease a unit from someone, or borrow one from someone in LA area.???? sorry for being off topic!

P.S. Why does this have to be my 500th post. Just when I complete my modding on my 3rd AMG :-(

TopGun32

that makes perfect.. since boost is adjusted based on gearing as well. 3rd and 4th would provide full power and thats when AFR is at its critical point.

Does the same apply to timing ( I would think as well).

In my data logger.. timing is pulled by going closer to Zero or positive and timing gained by going more negative.

How would I check if Im adding too much timing on my tune? Most of my old data logs show around -25 degrees + when pushing higher Rpms and around 100mph.

* actually some spots hitting 30's too on a run to 100mph.

sneakyneon

Lets see what others have to say but I would be nervous at 30 with a full bolt on car, Is this on pump gas?

hooleyboy

I've got this big write up about tuning and switching tunes bla bla bla. Ive been adding a bit to when I get the chance. Its kind of lengthy. Its a total hypothetical write up but its interesting info.. Might be time to post that up here on MBW...

Any event The write up touches on..Why I think a post tune, dyno run is very important.

In a nutshell, The post tune dyno run should be done after some good driving, or once the ECU makes some adaptations. Its kind of easy to make an AFR look good on a dyno. When in most, if not all cases the ECU had all adaptations cleared when a new file is uploaded. These days people are wanting very aggressive tunes and or are getting very aggressive tunes. On another note a good dyno operator can spot timing being pulled just by looking at the live graph.

blackbenzz

I just tried to log mine. I might be retarded but this autoenginuity sample rate is slowwwwwww I even got the MB specific one and paid extra. At this point I'm very disappointed. Sent them an email to see how they can help The timing I saw down low in the few points at low rpms were above 30 degrees. Normal?

Benz-O-Rama

Ahmad,

Were you only logging one thing? With the Auto Enginuity, the more things you log, the slower the sample rate. Plus, OBDII isn't the fastest protocol in the world.

AMGfan

Wow...just got through all the pages and I feel your pain brother. I have been there when I had my E55 at Kleeman K2 level. My issue was convoluted since I also had an issue with a fuel leak (like others have) that also may have caused a lean condition...had that fixed and weeks later I'm burning oil like it was going out of style...took it to MB and they took it apart and called in an MB regional specialist to take a look at it...

Needless to say, they pointed fingers at my mods but not identifying what was the root cause...they even kept my car hostage for a bit and would release it only if I PAID for their "diagnostic" disassembly of my engine...After threatening to sue and picket the lot across from MB AND my MB SA calling me on the down low telling me that I didn't sign anything that stated they had the authority to take the engine apart...I got my blown up car back.

Long story short...I had a short block with damaged cylinders and pistons and MB saying they could do me a favor and get me a used short block for 18K WITHOUT labor costs to rebuild it. That is when I turned to the fine fellows at MBWorld (Rflow - Albert and PTE - Pat).

I sent my short block to PTE and a shop he worked with and they resleeved my cylinders, replaced my pistons with OEM MB pistons (those are expensive suckers), and rebuilt the rest of the short block along with adding VRP/PTE cam shafts and with PTE porting the heads...parts and labor were between $9-10K...best decision I have ever made.

Then I continued to mod with mostly VRP equipment (thanks Victor) to the max...but the one thing I asked VRP to do was to have his ECU specialist to keep my timing and boost on the safe/protective side of the A/R curve...I wanted power but not at the expense of longevity...at that point (and NOW) I didn't care about being the top dog with respect to HP/TQ graphs...there will always be something more powerful and faster anyway...

For example my buddy has a beater 1990 300ZX TT that has been reworked to get over 500 hp...beats me every-time we get together but that is ok...he has me by about 900lbs but I still make it respectable PLUS I can seat 4 with comfort and style.

Bottom-line...you mod and you take a risk...the mechanical parts are the easiest to get right but if your ECU tune is off...it can make the sum total less than spectacular OR even worse...KABOOM...engine rebuild time.

Again...good luck with the rebuild.

PS. I really think the Kleeman tune was not the issue. The install and tune done by the tuner house that installed the K2 had been done on several E55's in their shop with no blown engine...to this day I still blame the fuel issue being the root cause...I had fuel in my cabin and overflowing from the top of the tank...I had a FHP trooper stop me since he saw me leaving a trail of fuel...AND I had been driving like this for over 300 mile (I was on vacation in Orlando and it was the weekend or I would have taken it into a shop ASAP)...

Eurocharged Rick

This is just complete madness, I love the way everyone has already blamed LET for this situation especially those that for some reason that don’t like us. So LET me clear this up, I was the one that tuned Loco’s car and his unfortunate mishaps are situations that happen when modding a vehicle. I don’t care the cost of an engine it’s still a mechanical part and still can be damaged to negligence and part failure.

For those that say I run to much timing with my tunes please tell me how much timing that is? Who honestly has done the homework and truly knows how much timing is in a tune when it comes from the factory? I’m sure that only a hand full knows for sure, we shouldn't speculate how much timing is actually ran. That can be very dangerous for those referencing a thread in the future.

Just to clear something up, I am a very conservative tuner and have been for years. I do not compensate a few horsepower for the longevity of an engine. I have customers all the time ask to add more timing so they can make more power. I always say no, and if they persist I always say I will not be held responsible for your engine and they are then responsible for their problems down the road. Also in this thread, I do see that a few things have been referenced to someone that used to work for LET and was never affiliated with Eurocharged in anyway. LET me tell you that all of our base tunes have been fully remapped by myself and Jerry since, and we have had great success in doing so. Those that have had issues with that certain person I have personally done what I could to correct these issues and they are now very happy customers. I have also offered my services for free to make up for what they had paid for, in my eyes an uncompleted tune.

bassan07- I am personally shocked to see that you haven't really told the whole story on your part. Yes LET tuned your car during that dyno day, but the only person you wanted to tune your car was Wayne? Also, he was not even personally there and that I would never understand. To clarify that tune you had on your car was not a representation of our (Eurocharged) current tunes. When he tuned your car, it was well over 100 degrees that day, and may have over compensated on your tune. Everyone that came back for the dyno day after that had great success and gained some really good power because the situations where much better and again more happy customers. I still think there was something deeper to that but no need to go there. If you look closely the competitor is only running .67 degrees less timing. Trust me that’s not going to make or break an engine. There is a window for margin of error and my tunes are safely within that window.

To all of my current customers, guys you have nothing to worry about. I do apologize if you feel a little worried but your tunes are safe. If it was not your cars would have "blown up" a long time ago according to all the pros here that seem to know what I do with my tunes. Everyone is saying that I run to much timing, and I honestly have no idea what they are talking about. I guess when uneducated people get bad information from others that are just as uneducated you would feel that way. This proves that saying of the blind leading that blind.

For all of those that have had a blown engine and really want to blame us for it let me start here.

Alexander1099 – why did your car blow up? Because you were told to not hammer on the car with NO TUNE, 180mm pulley, and then add cold weather and you have perfect recipe for destruction. Not saying this is what your saying but of course others are speculating this and it’s not right to point fingers at us, you just abused your car and that’s all to it.

There was a thread that someone started yes it got deleted (by the OP) but it was clearly explained what happened, there was an issue with the cylinder head installation which caused this problem and was fixed and the car still has the same tune on it, car has not blown up.

If I have blown up an engine do to my tuning I would admit it and take care of that customers engine the best that I could. Also if my tune blows up cars, I would have hundreds of blown up engines out there. This misinformation about my tuning "blowing up" cars need to really come to a cease. If there was detonation it would show on the dyno and the car would ping while WOT. I have put a lot of hours into making may tunes and studying an engine even before I start tuning them, with that being said I take deep insult when my tunes are compared to another tuners which is no longer with LET nor Eurocharged.

For those that have modded your cars in the past know that there are risks taken when modding a car no matter if it’s a Toyota or a Mercedes and also know there are extra responsibilities the owner of the car needs to take into consideration. We always recommend data logging with ANY modified car.

So where does the owner play a roll in abuse or negligence? I have heard guys say I have never changed my plugs or I have 25k miles on my plugs do I have to do this? or I don’t change my oil for 8k miles. Come on you don’t take a stock car mod the hell out of it make tons more power and don’t do proper maintenance on the car. So here is some education for those that need it. I will have a write up on this on our website for download.

In many years of collaboration with not only enthusiasts, but professionals, I’ve realized that there is a diametric opposite understanding of vehicles. Misinformation, bad advice, blatantly wrong advice, how ever you want to term it. What this leads to is a disproportionately large base of people who are completely ill-equipped to care for their vehicles.

This is evident in even the new owner who doesn’t do anything to their car. When they put off oil changes till they’re 2 quarts low, and 5,000 miles later. They proceed to attempt to care for their vehicles using the same poor habits, and then proceed to blame the tuner and/or install shop.

It’s incredible what actually causes failures sometimes. Unfortunately, simple care and discipline could have prevented the issue in the first place.

I’d say that the most asked question I have is: “So what should I do to my car?”. The answer has been pretty similar across the years. It’s based on 3 questions I need to ask first.

1. What is the purpose of the vehicle? Do you plan on road racing it? Auto cross? Drag
racing? Street racing?

2. How successful do you want to be in that endeavor? Do you want to run a road course? Want to run 11’s down the track? Beat up on Viper’s at the light down the street?

3. How much are you willing to invest in the inevitable up keep of the vehicle?

People so often overlook that 3rd question. Most of the time people aspire and plan to afford their shiny new exhausts, pulleys, and throttle bodies. Never considering the supporting and ancillary modifications required, data logging equipment, or much less the upkeep of the vehicle from the extra wear and tear down the road.

That is the reality of how things work though. In this community at least, there are pretty understood milestones that represent leaps in cost. For a 5.5l kompressor based vehicles, there are three major groups of investment. Stock, any mix under 450WHP, everything else.

Do not wait till it’s too late to do an oil change or check spark plugs especially if you’re driving your car hard all the time. Have a compression test done before tuning your car, and have your car looked over by a mechanic before having all the mods in the world added to your car. Again pre and post maintenance on a car goes a long way, I have had people call and say after your tune my car done this, after a long investigations they always find something mechanically wrong with the car fix the issue and call to say my car runs fine now thanks for your help. But of course the first thing that comes to mind is tuning what a shame.

Loco there are so many parameters to look at in your situation, when the last time you had your plugs changed? How many miles did you have on the oil during that time? What was each cylinders CR? I’m sorry if you did have all this work done on your car and your mechanic and tuner then did not provide this info to you before your car went under the knife. When I have cars in my shop these measures are done making sure things are solid before hand. You did mention you had all this work done by TTM and never had the car on the dyno how do you know the tune you had in the car wasn’t the cause of this issue and giving the car the power it should have had didn’t just make that issue worse? I happen to see the competitor’s tune and I showed you and the other guy the tune, there was absolutely no timing nor was fueling changes in that tune, only torque management and a few things in the background done. But since I was the last one to tune it I am being blamed for it. I know you are doing your homework which I do appreciate very much but I don’t really think the true answer will come from it and if it does I can’t wait to see the results. Good luck with everything and I hope you find the answer you’re looking for.

bassn_07

If you are seeing anywhere near 30 degree while at WOT you will soon share the same faith as the OP. My car doesn't even come close to seeing numbers like that .

As for logging, MB straight sucks going through the OBD and the sample rates are very slow when compared to other cars . I believe the best I've seen is 3 samples per second while logging 3 parameter, less than impressive. I basically log AFR's, Boost, Knock sensors 1 and 2, fuel pressure, EGT's, and TPS directly. Timing and IAT's are done through the OBD but that is in the process of being changed.

Here's a sample of a 1/4 mile run.

bassn_07

Tony, I have no idea what you're talking about...not telling the whole story??? I have a 3 page post that tells all . Wayne even posted up in that thread and told his side but now you say "you haven't really told the whole story on your part". Please feel free to elaborate and tell me what I haven't openly posted. I have no intention of getting into a debate over this because I already posted my opinions on this matter.

Like I always said, you guys gave me great customer service but I wasn't personally satisfied with your tune, that's all. I'm just sharing my own personal experience from LET.

I just reread you post and yes I did want Wayne to personally tune my car do the success stories I heard but in the end both you and Jerry tuned my car...right? Over compensated??? Do you think it's a possibility that you over compensated once again with Loco's tune? I understand mistakes happens and if it did owning up and taking responsibility would be a great step in the right direction.

TopGun32

just a pulley... no headers, no TB on 91 pump..

I have a LET tune from around August 09 and AFR was good on the dyno run.

timing.. is something I will monitor closely.

Esh

Gotta give props to Tony for gettithinks side and name out in the open. If everything takes place backstage there is no need to mention it here without a name. That's how we get 6 pages of speculation.

There are always risks in modding, especially when modifying high performance AMG's. It sucks, but good luck to all parties involved.

c32AMG-DTM

Tony - thank you for posting, it's good to get the vendor's side of things too. People can't really form a full opinion on the matter otherwise, my $0.02.

Serious question: with modern full-synthetic oils and iridium plugs, what is the recommended change interval on a modded engine? Your post seems to suggest that 8k oil changes and 25k plug changes is negligent... I wouldn't have thought that prior to reading your post. So, what're acceptable intervals? TIA.

AMGfan

People have told me its a waste of money...every 3K for me...but its my money.

BenzoBoi

I personally do it every 5k miles. If I was a lil happy, then I do it every 3k miles. That's just me though...

Rock

Haha.....Loren my old friend, you live. I see a slight mark-up on that engine of yours but considering the impending Obama tax increase, the mark-up is acceptable.

Still have the SRT8? We miss your presence around here.

c32AMG-DTM

Thanks guys - I usually do around 6-7k in my C32... but it's pretty tame by comparison.

How 'bout plug changes?

Gondon

It' every 5K miles for Oil Change.

Eurocharged Rick

Again your tune is fine and safe, you have ran on our tune for how long? Come on Ahmad you are a very knowledgable person please do some homework before you believe the crap, just cause they like some other companies tunes don't give them the right to just lie.

Lets do what has been said before remove timing and fuel and make much more power so you can pick up 7mph on the back half and run in the 9's

Here are stock timing values for your car.


Here are your values, do you see anything overly agreesive? there is much more room there but like I said I dont compisate HP for longevity.

Faast

......and for the same very reason i just bought 60q of Mobil 1 0W40 .....Cheap insurance.....

nick 55

I did that too, actually, I bought 18 cases of it. It doesn't last real long when you have 3 cars that take it.

Nick