blackbenzz

I have been running different LET and now a couple EC tunes on my car for the past couple years. The most recent revisiosn (for new mods) being a few weekends ago. The car is driven a considerable amount during the warmer parts of the year and sometimes over long distances (Chicago for example). As most of you know it has more than a few 10s passes under its belt without nitrous and running 93 octane. I have always had 93 octane in my car from the pump (I tried race gas a couple times just for fun). I have yet to have any major problems even though my setup is not the typical modded benz. I also wanted to comment on my trip to EC. The guys were very nice and helpful and were able to tune my car on their dyno to put down good numbers and were accommodating to my special requests during tuning. I have a wideband in my car and I used that to monitor AFR's. I would recommend this to people modding their cars. Their pricing is very good and they actually travelled out to Virginia to tune some of the local cars. None of the other big name tuners were willing to do this, so this was a huge plus in my decision making. Dyno tune or nothing for me (although some tweaking from street tuning isn't bad).

Busta Riles

Somewhat OT,
What do you do if you don't live within 2000 miles of a tuning company but want to do a pulley/tune?

blackbenzz

If you are just doing a simple pulley/tune you can ship your ECU to the tuner since they have experience doing many cars like that in th epast. If you prefer a dyno tune you can organize a group tuning day and EC (maybe other tuners ) will probably come out and tune the cars if you can organize enough people

J 2OOI

You quoted me but did not directly respond to my post. Are you inferring that EC should tell all of their customers that their engine might blow due to the EC tune or parts? Isn't that a risk that the customer should be warned about? Wouldn't this make tuning only for the truly hardcore guys? What would the EC market size be then? How many benz owners would get a tune if they thought an engine blowing was an actual feasible risk they were taking? I would guess that the EC guys are doing the opposite right now- trying to reassure their current and potential customers that they are NOT at risk! So while the EC guys are busy telling people their tunes and parts are safe you are busy telling people that an engine blowing up is a risk that everyone using EC should be aware of?

Ahmad, doesn't your story fit perfectly with my question posed- that EC is great right up until you really really need them?

c32AMG-DTM

Read an eerily similar post on another forum, making the same observation. Maybe there's some truth to it...?

How often do we see glowing reviews like (paraphrasing) "hey guys, I just wanted to share my great customer experience recently. I called Tuner Co. and John Doe answered. We talked for 20 minutes, I explained what car I had and what I was looking for. He suggested A, B, and C parts to help me reach my goals; I agreed, so he took my CC information and said the parts would ship by the end of the week. Thanks Tuner Co.!" Is that all it takes for an "atta boy" from the clientele of the automotive aftermarket? A shame our standards are so universally low, if so.

Of course they would, and you're comparing scenarios that aren't even remotely like one another. Auto manufacturers warranty their own work. If you tamper with their work and it subsequently fails... why should they cover it? Because they're a faceless "big company" with the resources to do so? Not a good reason.

Some tuners comprehensively warranty their own work too. This is more important to some customers than others, and it tends to coincide with the higher-dollar shops. Dinan and Renntech are good examples (and have been in biz for 20-30 years; which makes the warranty potentially more meaningful), among others. What you won't find, is someone covering a claim on someone else's product/service. Insurance policies excluded, of course.

citylightva

Everyone using ANYONE should realize there are always risks involved with taking a stock motor to a non stock condition...Just like JRCart said...Stock motors blow sometimes so what do you think will happen when you push them even harder..?? Life can be a b*tch...

SGTzAMG

nice! yeah Jerry is awesome! ive been emailing him regarding C32 Tune, and hes awesome when it comes to customer service! def shows care for his customers

citylightva

You're right, not really the same at all. Won't Dinan and Renntech only warranty after a tune if you put it on a new car..?? That's just a question. Most of the guys I hear talking about Renn's warranty are throwing those tunes on before leaving the dealership...

Doesn't matter to me, I'm NA so blowing my motor would be really tough and the only real tuning reason for me was to pull off all the limiters.

alumar

I am very neutral on the situation when it comes to who's responsiblity it falls on when tuning. I would submit the following analysis.

1) Would the persons tune be considered custom, testing, trying to get the most out of - Responsibility would fall on OWNER (This example is a "TEST" environment, **** happens, its because tolerances and history have not been followed, you are asking the tuner to take your car to its 'potential' ...which falls on lots of hardware to hold up their bargain) | This is the pay to play situation ...

2) Proven Tune, you essentially by a copy of a pre-mapped tune for your particular car, that **** blows up after you have it on (melted piston etc) ...the responsibility falls on the TUNER | That tune should of been locked down with acceptable tolerances. Something melts, that 'prefab' tune sucks monkey nuts and they need to get it fixed.

Anytime you try to get take the hardware over manufactured specs, you risk something happening, obviously we all know that. But if a product has been tested and stamped off by a tuner as a VALID product, pre-checked, tested and verified for a particular vehicle, they should be responsible if a set of events take place <pre-defined> that should not from the tune.

If a tuner would spell these out (I.E, you buy my <x> tune, I guarrentee your engines not going to melt from it, provided you have all required sensors in place (O2, MAF if aval) ...essentially everything that f's with A/F.

If you go in wanting something custom, the owner needs to go in it knowing ..."my **** could melt on this dyno, but i have some confidence in teh tuner I have chosen to make a good professional decision in his choices of remapping, because I have confidence in their understanding of the ECU"

Just my 2 cents ... plus a nickel

c32AMG-DTM

Do you see the inconsistency in your comments above? In one breath you're saying that stock motors sometimes fail (M156 isn't immune either, as we know). Following that, you seem to reassure yourself that blowing your motor would be really tough. Which hopefully is true; wouldn't wish a motor failure on anyone - especially one as pricey as the M156. IMHO, Jrcart's point was that if you modify your still-under-warranty vehicle, you should be mentally prepared to cover the cost of anything that goes awry... basically, that you've trashed the remainder of your warranty coverage on modified parts/systems - so don't plan on it being there later if you need it.

As I understand it, many dealerships nationwide are also Renntech and/or Kleemann authorized dealers and installers. They can tune brand new, or used vehicles. The warranty policies of Renntech, Kleemann, Dinan, et. al. can usually be found on their respective websites. Sometimes they have specific language about adding coverage where the manufacturer voids their own coverage for the tuner's hardware and/or software.

J 2OOI

EC has spent countless hours on countless posts assuring their current and potential customers that they are not at risk for a blown motor. Why don't they come out and tell everyone what you are saying- that blowing a motor with their parts and tunes is a real possibility?

These threads are less about the motor actually blowing and more about the customer service, or lack there-of, that was received after it happened. Find me one customer that EC has blown their engine and remedied the situation satisfactorily. So far they are 0/3 that I am aware of.

Like I said, is the moral of the story that EC is great right up until you really really need them?

citylightva

Oh I wasn't reassuring myself. My motor could hand grenade at any moment. I've read about a few M156's that have, though they were bone stock. At this point if it did it would be a build issue, but there is a good chance they would void me out if they realized it even had just a tune on it. That's why i waited until close to the end of warranty to do it. I shudder to think what a rebuild would cost, but I'd probably just sell it as a parts car in that case. JR said that but he also stated, maybe not in this thread, that anyone that mods better be prepared for the worst. Not that it will happen but could. I'm just saying you have a couple sporadic stories and everyone is on this bandwagon of, "Oh its definitely their fault, they should replace my whole motor". Seems to happen every time something happens to anyone with any company/person...

And no man, I do not totally disagree with you, just stating a different side...

citylightva

Oh I totally agree with that. Anyone that make performance parts for any vehicle should state that in my mind. There is always that 1 in 5000 chance, no matter how many times it has worked flawlessly...

Exotic-metal55

I have 11K of hard **** miles on my LET/EC tune and Jerry is the best at customer service I have ever seen.. The tune has been adjusted on the dyno , for every mod I add. Cal1, you add TB and headers, you need to get on the dyno and check the A/F real good. I would recomend tune and it is worth your drive to Chicago.. I think LET/EC has done over 900 tunes in the last year or so..

I understand racing, good service and a good tune.. I have no fear at all for Jerry/EC to keep tuning my car.. He shows me exatcly wht he does on my maps and I know it is safe and to my specs.. When my car gets up to 550 plus RWHP like some of these cars,,, you can bet that larger injectors will go in, fuel pressure checked live in 4th gear (up to 140mph) and a re-tune to tie it in.. I am damn sure that I will not put all that HP on stock fuel sytem and then go crying foul about a tune, if i run out of fuel on old stock injectors.. Those people hurt the whole industy and the people that work hard to create race parts for us.. Really, you think you can add cams, pulley, LT, TB and other bolts, make 560hp SAE corrected and expect stock fuel system to handle 150RWhp over stock? LOL .. Oh yeah, also have a ton of miles and who knows what kind of gas junk pumped into the tank over the years..

Jerry/EC even made custom Long Tube headers for my CL class frame (been trying to find some for a year) and then offered to come over and help with the install.. Said he just wanted to make sure everything was they way I wanted and fit was good.. Oh yeah, and Gregg miced everything and sent a part back, as it did not meet his spec.. Then second day aired them to me to make up for the delay.. Damn! That is good customer service!

J 2OOI

Right. But shouldn't we look at how many failures occur vs the total number of tunes? I have heard of 3 blown motors out of "hundreds" of tunes according to Tony. 3/300 is 1% for complete failure. Draw your own conclusion on whether that's acceptable. A 1% complete failure under most reputable standards is a horrible and completely unacceptable failure rate.

Also, knowing that stuff can happen, doesn't that make the response from EC that much more important? Maybe EC wants to do the right thing, but can't afford it, maybe they don't want to do the right thing, who knows. Either way the customer is stuck.

c32AMG-DTM

No worries - hearing "a different side" helps us learn and further evolves our way of thinking about something, me included. Hopefully does, anyway.

Oh, FWIW, I'm the same way - usually wait until my cars are out, or at least almost out, of factory warranty before embarking on anything extensive mod-wise. Just seems more prudent, but everyone's different on that topic.

citylightva

For sure..!!

I think the warranty thing is like a safety net in my mind. Who knows what all MBUSA will decide to void if you change one thing in the engine. The tranny and rear end too.?? That's why I usually wait. I don't want to give em a chance to sneak out of an actual defect with the excuse I voided it

c32AMG-DTM

Haha; agreed 100%.

motorkas

Lost me with that statement. . .personally think you may have become a little over-zealous in your attempt to prove your point.

I personally have also had great dealings with the guys at EC that leads me to believe that their customer service and products/promises are top notch. Granted, as you have so eloquently stated, I have not had an engine blow, and therefore, have not had to deal with them from that perspective. That being said, the dealings that I have had with them have been top notch. And if that places me in a 99% majority, well, I think you would be hard pressed to find a similar satisfaction rate across a WIDE variety of industries (not insinuating that they, indeed, have a 99% satisfaction rate but meerly using the numbers you have provided).

If true, that the tune is responsible for the detonation of the engine, I agree with the assertion that EC should be responsible. Does that statement change how I was treated in my dealings with them? Simply, no. One has no bearing on the other. I had a positive experience, the other person did not. Our ability to relay positive experiences with a vendor are just as vital to the forum as the unfortunate members who have negative experiences. Both provide valuable information for other members in order to make an informed decision.

Sticking with what I know (and addressing my original statement): the five year survival rate for a kidney transplant patient is:

White: 73.9%
Black 60.8%
Hispanic 75.%
Asian 79.6%

Much lower than your 1% acceptable threshold (as with most things in the real world). The vast majority of your argument, I found myself agreeing with (still do); maybe it's just me, but the area I work in, the acceptable statistical confidence intervals are 5%, 1% risk in my book is completely and totally acceptable.

J 2OOI

First off, excellent post. I understand your points. I've decided to respond to them individually.

First, I realize that failure rate is typically measured in units of time (hence the word "rate") however, for purposes of this argument it is very difficult to analyze it in that manner. I never said anything about satisfaction level. I was only talking number of blown engines that have (on this website) been attributed to EC vs the total number of tunes they have done (estimated by Tony). That has nothing to do with satisfaction level. It is a measurement of known blown engines vs known tunes, hence 3/300 or 1%.

Again, I don't disagree with you but I would ask: How many customers treated "right" for minor issues make up for one treated "wrong" for a major issue costing tens of thousands of dollars?

Aren't kidney transplants performed when death is imminent without it? Wouldn't a better surgery related analogy be for something that was done not based on imminent death but based on "enhancement" as with a tune? A quick search yielded a study completed in 2000 of over 500,000 patients of liposuction surgery. The death rate in units of deaths/liposuction surgery was 1/5,000. That's 0.02%.

loungn14

wow really stretching on this one aren't you. The gentelman that you are speaking of in your 1/3 that did post and definately said it was a hardware error with our tech not installing the head correctly that caused the engine to pop. And what happened. We admitted it was our fault and replaced the engine as was posted by the owner and us in the thread. Mercedes came to the conclusion that the gasket sealer blocked the return. We caused it, and we replaced the engine. And I don't know why I need to get into the details as we both know you know the story. You also know that it was a hardware error, same reason the tune wasn't changed when the new engine was put in and he has driven many many miles on it. We did the right thing no?

So on to aleks. So, mercedes says it was a stock tune on the car when it had its error. Yup, that must be a tune error as well. It was an 03 with a ringland failure that caused the issue. (documented by a few on this forum to have the same problem on their stock and modded 03's) Not to mention the owner did things like put an extra heat exchanger held on with coat hangers. You read that right, coat hangers.

This newest problem will be well documented for all to see, and you know I am looking forward to it. There is more to the story and that will be shared in due time. We have always stood behind the products and will continue to do so.

Bottom line is no matter what you do to your car with anyone, things can happen, with ANY modified car.

E55Bullet

IndyJoe, I regret to inform you that you will not be able to attend any track meets with us. Its not that I don't consider us friends, nor do I dislike your car, I JUST DONT WANT TO GET BEAT BY AN SLK! HAHAHHAHAHA



ps. Ill let you know. ORP opens at the end of the month, my new nittos drag radials will be in on tuesday! see ya buddy!

motorkas

Fair enough. . .you did not say "satisfaction level" during any point of your post. It was something that I extrapolated. The reason that was done is there seems to be an assumption that "blown engine=dissatisfied; non-blown engine=satisfied". I fully concede that there are other members on the board who have had EC tunes that did not blow their engines AND were not satisfied (but it remains to be seen if the dissatisfaction was do to the tune not living up to their expectations, or if it was EC customer service - I have my own personal opinions but I realize I do not have all the info so I won't express them).

I find this more of a philosophical question, similar in the vein of "how many convicted criminals should go free so one innocent man shall stay out of prison". Everybody is going to have a different opinion based upon their own experiences (being a victim of a crime v. wrongfully accused of one comes to mind). I would, however, offer another philosophical question that has already been raised in this, and other threads: At what point does an individual take responsibility for their own actions? Once again, opinions are going to widely vary on the subject. I will say this. Once this all hit - I could have flashed by ECU back to stock. I'm not going to lie, I didn't wide open throttle it until I go more info but the fact remains the same. I didn't, if the engine blows thats on me.

Whether it was intentional, or not, the perception that "If you have an EC tune, your engine is a time bomb" got out. What I find interesting was so many people came to the same conclusion. Thats not an accident. All of this was done before a diagnostic of the actual problem was done. Is it right to put that perception out there without having the post mortem? Once again, opinions are going to vary.

I really don't have a dog in this race. I do have an ECU tune by them (no pulleys or anything else) and I bought my CF air intakes from them (love 'em). I enjoyed both transactions and interactions and am a very happy customer. If they have something that I need at a competitive price - I will continue to do business with them.

Throwing those stats out there was a lazy move on my part (they're accurate and it doesn't change the point I was trying to make but it was lazy nontheless). To answer your questions, kidney failure does have an adverse effect on your overall health and does decrease your life expectancy but death (for the most part) is nowhere near imminent. Surprisingly enough, heart failure, in VERY SIMPLISTIC terms is similar in the sense that machines (LVADs and dialysis) and drugs can manage it up to a certain point (eventually you will die-with heart failure alot quicker than kidney failure). Liver failure is the only one out of the main three types of transplants in which death is imminent (usually days - and we're taking low single digits).

I see your point as far as enhancement surgery being analogous to a tune, however, you would surprised how easy it is to have an infection caused by a surgery kill a patient and not show up as a surgical death because the patient died of an "infection". I'm not saying that is the case with what you quoted, but 500,000 patients, by definition, cannot be adequately controlled or followed. I was using transplant data because comparatively speaking, it's a small patient population that easily followed and all data is monitored by an independent third party UNOS. Does it make it 100% accurate. No. But it's fairly decent data.

Even though we differ in certain areas, I really do like the way you present your point of view

cal1

Thanks 930chas, Blk04cobra1 and Exotic-metal55 and everyone for the discussion on AFRs. I talked to Jerry and you guessed it, I’m making the drive to EC next week for a dyno tune. They are going to set me up with a conservative tune. I guess I’m putting my money were my mouth is on this and showing the true confidence I have in EC.

cal1

We need to make a run up to Muncie for some real fun. The hay seeds are serious about their American muscle and the owner is serious about well prepped tracks unlike ORP. I could use some company. Oh, and the competition. Normally I’m the only MB… well let’s say, non American car out there. There were some ricers from Fort Wayne once. We kind of huddled together like outcasts. That was until we ran down the track and earned some respect. I don’t think the hayseeds expected to see a Benz run sub 12 or a Lancer turning 12 flat. Muncie is a long haul though for a Wednesday night “Test and Tune” especially for the Lafayette boys. I guess ORP will do.