Can I dramatically improve handling???
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Joined: Sep 2009
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From: Taipei, Taiwan
2007 E63, 2003 Porsche Boxster, 2006 Lexus 460L
Can I dramatically improve handling???
Long story short, I chased a Maserati Quattroporte for a couple of miles last week through some hilly roads on my way to the golf course. Although I would call it a tie, I was simply disappointed the way my E63 handled through the twists and turns. I know we didn't buy our AMGs for this purpose, but am still upset that I couldn't gain ground on a car that weighed the same as mine, and has "only" 430/440 horses (not sure which version the Maser was). So asking for all your help on any recommendations for a good set-up to improve the car's handling, or what aftermarket goodies I can buy to achieve that purpose. Or....should I just forget it and stop racing people on windy roads??? Thanks.
P.S. My car is currently stock, European version, no performance package.
P.S. My car is currently stock, European version, no performance package.
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Porsche 991S, Cayenne S, 1972 BMW 3.0CS E9 Coupe
Next time use your Boxster. Despite the hp difference you'd still outrun the Maser. 
The E Class are comfort cars with an emphasis on comfort. Airmatic's great for smoothing out any road surface you throw at it, but a car for the twisties it's really not.
On the other hand you can push these cars beyond that initial feeling of not sticking to the road and still stay on the road. With some good performance tires (PS2s work well with this chassis), the tranny in M, and heavy braking (brakes work nice with not a lot of fade), you can do okay. I've kept up with many better handling cars in the canyons. With the good brakes and in the correct gear for max torque, you can get the brake on before the corners just fine and pull out pretty quickly (although it's a bit slower transitioning from the brakes to throttle with a MB auto tranny, and the throttle pedal itself is a bit mushy.) But there's not a lot you can do with the air suspension.
The E Class are comfort cars with an emphasis on comfort. Airmatic's great for smoothing out any road surface you throw at it, but a car for the twisties it's really not.
On the other hand you can push these cars beyond that initial feeling of not sticking to the road and still stay on the road. With some good performance tires (PS2s work well with this chassis), the tranny in M, and heavy braking (brakes work nice with not a lot of fade), you can do okay. I've kept up with many better handling cars in the canyons. With the good brakes and in the correct gear for max torque, you can get the brake on before the corners just fine and pull out pretty quickly (although it's a bit slower transitioning from the brakes to throttle with a MB auto tranny, and the throttle pedal itself is a bit mushy.) But there's not a lot you can do with the air suspension.
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From: Auckland, New Zealand
2006 E63 AMG
I've also found the E63 responds well to, shall we say, assertive steering inputs. If you ease the car into turns I find you don't get as much front end bite compared to a more rapid increase in the application of steering angle.
I think what may be happening here is that the self-levelling character of the Airmatic stops the outer front tyre from loading when you ease it in, a more rapid transition allows for more weight transfer and a sharper steering feel. Without being aggressive in your driving, I think the E63 just goes better when you muscle it around a bit.
Interestingly I found a similar response with my RS6 - the DRC had the same effect of moderating weight transfer - it definitely cornered better with assertive turn in. Ironically race car suspension is often set up to give more apparent dive than you might think - to achieve the necessary tyre loadings.
For its size and comfort I think the E63 does a pretty damn good job of handling. Go back and find the Maserati and have another go!!!
I think what may be happening here is that the self-levelling character of the Airmatic stops the outer front tyre from loading when you ease it in, a more rapid transition allows for more weight transfer and a sharper steering feel. Without being aggressive in your driving, I think the E63 just goes better when you muscle it around a bit.
Interestingly I found a similar response with my RS6 - the DRC had the same effect of moderating weight transfer - it definitely cornered better with assertive turn in. Ironically race car suspension is often set up to give more apparent dive than you might think - to achieve the necessary tyre loadings.
For its size and comfort I think the E63 does a pretty damn good job of handling. Go back and find the Maserati and have another go!!!
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From: London, UK
No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, GLE 400d, R107 280SL, Golf Polo
Dramatically improve handling?
I would say no unless you prepared to gut the car.... and go to town on the suspension.
I would say no unless you prepared to gut the car.... and go to town on the suspension.
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From: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Wrong series for something like that. New W212 would have been fun to try. Leaps and bounds ahead of our poor W211s. Guess we will just have to settle for mind bending straight line acceleration.
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From: Florida-Germany-New York
2004 E55,1969 300SEL6.3,2011 ML350 BlueTec Diesel,2005 ML400 CDI
My test track is the Nordschleife (about an hour away). Here are a few items I have found to be quite helpful:
1. Evosport light weight brake rotors. Saves almost 40 lbs of unsprung weight not to mention the reduction of 40 lbs of rotational mass which is the equivalent to an increase in HP (Can't measure it on a dyno, but it is substantial).
2. Adjustable toe links (Several good brands available)
3. K-MAC bushings. Stiffens everything up.
4. LSD
5. RENNTECH lowering module (Nice to have full ride height control at your finger tips for a lower CG).
Don't kid yourself, these cars properly set up (even with Airmatic) with good tires (Toyo Proxes work well) will approach 1G on a skid pad.
1. Evosport light weight brake rotors. Saves almost 40 lbs of unsprung weight not to mention the reduction of 40 lbs of rotational mass which is the equivalent to an increase in HP (Can't measure it on a dyno, but it is substantial).
2. Adjustable toe links (Several good brands available)
3. K-MAC bushings. Stiffens everything up.
4. LSD
5. RENNTECH lowering module (Nice to have full ride height control at your finger tips for a lower CG).
Don't kid yourself, these cars properly set up (even with Airmatic) with good tires (Toyo Proxes work well) will approach 1G on a skid pad.
Last edited by AgSilver; Oct 19, 2010 at 08:27 PM.
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From: ny
2019 s560 sedan
My test track is the Nordschleife (about an hour away). Here are a few items I have found to be quite helpful:
1. Evosport light weight brake rotors. Saves almost 40 lbs of unsprung weight not to mention the reduction of 40 lbs of rotational mass which is the equivalent to an increase in HP (Can't measure it on a dyno, but it is substantial).
2. Adjustable toe links (Several good brands available)
3. K-MAC bushings. Stiffens everything up.
4. LSD
5. RENNTECH lowering module (Nice to have full ride height control at your finger tips for a lower CG).
Don't kid yourself, these cars properly set up (even with Airmatic) with good tires (Toyo Proxes work well) will approach 1G on a skid pad.
1. Evosport light weight brake rotors. Saves almost 40 lbs of unsprung weight not to mention the reduction of 40 lbs of rotational mass which is the equivalent to an increase in HP (Can't measure it on a dyno, but it is substantial).
2. Adjustable toe links (Several good brands available)
3. K-MAC bushings. Stiffens everything up.
4. LSD
5. RENNTECH lowering module (Nice to have full ride height control at your finger tips for a lower CG).
Don't kid yourself, these cars properly set up (even with Airmatic) with good tires (Toyo Proxes work well) will approach 1G on a skid pad.
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From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
work getting wider rims up front..
maybe 9ich by 9.5 with the correct offset will help.
this car give you alot of understeer, so you want to offset it...
The w212 they increased the front width by inches I believe... and they ditch the air matic for the front suspension.
The best way to improve handling.. E90 M5. Good luck with the SMG3
maybe 9ich by 9.5 with the correct offset will help.
this car give you alot of understeer, so you want to offset it...
The w212 they increased the front width by inches I believe... and they ditch the air matic for the front suspension.
The best way to improve handling.. E90 M5. Good luck with the SMG3
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,124
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From: Florida-Germany-New York
2004 E55,1969 300SEL6.3,2011 ML350 BlueTec Diesel,2005 ML400 CDI
work getting wider rims up front..
maybe 9ich by 9.5 with the correct offset will help.
this car give you alot of understeer, so you want to offset it...
The w212 they increased the front width by inches I believe... and they ditch the air matic for the front suspension.
The best way to improve handling.. E90 M5. Good luck with the SMG3
maybe 9ich by 9.5 with the correct offset will help.
this car give you alot of understeer, so you want to offset it...
The w212 they increased the front width by inches I believe... and they ditch the air matic for the front suspension.
The best way to improve handling.. E90 M5. Good luck with the SMG3
Best way to improve handling - - - Porsche 914-6 - - - still the the best if properly set up.
"Simplify and add lightness" Colin Chapman
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 139
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From: Huntington Beach, CA
Mercedes-Benz AMG
Long story short, I chased a Maserati Quattroporte for a couple of miles last week through some hilly roads on my way to the golf course. Although I would call it a tie, I was simply disappointed the way my E63 handled through the twists and turns. I know we didn't buy our AMGs for this purpose, but am still upset that I couldn't gain ground on a car that weighed the same as mine, and has "only" 430/440 horses (not sure which version the Maser was). So asking for all your help on any recommendations for a good set-up to improve the car's handling, or what aftermarket goodies I can buy to achieve that purpose. Or....should I just forget it and stop racing people on windy roads??? Thanks.
P.S. My car is currently stock, European version, no performance package.
P.S. My car is currently stock, European version, no performance package.
The first thing you need to do is lower the CG. A lowering module would help this. Simply lowering the car an inch or so will help. Next I would stabilize the rear with our evosport toe-links. Our links reduce the toe change upon acceleration, deceleration and coming in and out of turns. Lastly I would have a performance alignment done. The front could use some toe-out to induce quicker and more stable turn in and the rear can take a little more toe-in for stability.
Hope this helps
Dale
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From: Huntington Beach, CA
Mercedes-Benz AMG
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
Certainly tires helps a ton.
My P30 has 40-50% higher spring rates which knocks down roll a lot and the LSD digs out of the corners. However, the W212 has wider tires and the 2" wider front track with a true coil over suspension. W211 can not keep up.
I have done a 0.95g in a turn according to my PBOX, and 1.1G with some banking. Goodyear Eagle F1 Asmymetrics.
My P30 has 40-50% higher spring rates which knocks down roll a lot and the LSD digs out of the corners. However, the W212 has wider tires and the 2" wider front track with a true coil over suspension. W211 can not keep up.
I have done a 0.95g in a turn according to my PBOX, and 1.1G with some banking. Goodyear Eagle F1 Asmymetrics.
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Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Atlanta
94 Supra 04 E55
R compound tires for the street... best bang for the buck if you want to improve handling.
At my local track Road Atlanta. I went 1:48's in a stock e46 m3 . Did no changes to the car other than some Toyo Ra1's on a spare set of wheels and went 1:43's.
Just have to be careful in rain
At my local track Road Atlanta. I went 1:48's in a stock e46 m3 . Did no changes to the car other than some Toyo Ra1's on a spare set of wheels and went 1:43's.
Just have to be careful in rain
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From: Huntington Beach, CA
None fast enough!
Here is a write up I did on another forum that will help:
When improving the handling of a car, you need to focus on 3 primary areas (there are more, but this is a good rule of thumb for a general discussion).
1. Reduce Weight: You want to reduce unsprung weight as your first priority (wheels, rotors, tires, etc) as this will have a 4 to 1 impact (ie: saving 1lb on a wheel is like taking 4 lbs off of the chassis, thereby, saving 7lbs per rotor with evosport ones is like taking 112lbs off of the "sprung" chassis).
Methods to reduce unsprung weight:
Methods to reduce sprung weight:
2. Improve Mechanical Grip: While it is true that the lighter the car, the better it will grip generally, you want to maximize your mechanical grip as much as practical for a street car (ie: too stiff or low might be ideal for a RACE car, but miserable on the street)
2. Improve Aero Grip: Improving the downforce of the car will help, but only with medium to fast turns
Let me know if there are any questions, hope this helps!
thanks
brad
When improving the handling of a car, you need to focus on 3 primary areas (there are more, but this is a good rule of thumb for a general discussion).
1. Reduce Weight: You want to reduce unsprung weight as your first priority (wheels, rotors, tires, etc) as this will have a 4 to 1 impact (ie: saving 1lb on a wheel is like taking 4 lbs off of the chassis, thereby, saving 7lbs per rotor with evosport ones is like taking 112lbs off of the "sprung" chassis).
Methods to reduce unsprung weight:
- Lightweight Wheels
- Lighter Rotors
- Lighter Tires
- Lighter Suspension/Springs
Methods to reduce sprung weight:
- Lightweight body panels, the roof being the biggest improvement as it is farthest from the ground
- Lightweight seats
- Removing unused interior panels
- Etc. etc. etc.
2. Improve Mechanical Grip: While it is true that the lighter the car, the better it will grip generally, you want to maximize your mechanical grip as much as practical for a street car (ie: too stiff or low might be ideal for a RACE car, but miserable on the street)
- Suspension Improvement: get the best matched shock/spring you can, I recommend H&R coil-overs as I find them the absolute best compromise for this car. I know many recommend KW, but I have never been a fan, YMMV.
- Better Tires: going to a stickier tire, like a DOT-R will help tremendously
- Alignment: correctly adjusting the alignment specs to maximize grip (warning: this may cause premature tire wear)
- Stiffen the chassis: roll bars, cages, strut braces (non-hinged), etc.
2. Improve Aero Grip: Improving the downforce of the car will help, but only with medium to fast turns
- Front Splitter/Rear Wing that are balanced
- Reducing drag: not super practical on a street car, but things like the wing mirrors are not helping!
Let me know if there are any questions, hope this helps!
thanks
brad
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Porsche 991S, Cayenne S, 1972 BMW 3.0CS E9 Coupe
That's all fine but you're always going to be stuck with the base geometry of the car's chassis design. Bottom line is if you want a car for road handling, then buy one that's designed that way from the beginning. The W211 (the chassis in question here) is primarily a comfort car and not a super handling car. You can only go so far without redesigning the whole thing. There's a limit to that economically. It can be cheaper (and better) to just choose a different car.
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
That's all fine but you're always going to be stuck with the base geometry of the car's chassis design. Bottom line is if you want a car for road handling, then buy one that's designed that way from the beginning. The W211 (the chassis in question here) is primarily a comfort car and not a super handling car. You can only go so far without redesigning the whole thing. There's a limit to that economically. It can be cheaper (and better) to just choose a different car.
I still like to enjoy the W211 on a twisty track every now and then though
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From: Huntington Beach, CA
None fast enough!
The OP did not say he wanted a race car, he said he wanted to slightly improve handling - which is 100% doable with over the counter modifications. Let's cut him some slack here guys!
To the OP, if you want to discuss directly, please feel free to contact me and I can recommend specific products that will help!
thanks
Brad
To the OP, if you want to discuss directly, please feel free to contact me and I can recommend specific products that will help!
thanks
Brad
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Posts: 1,717
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From: San Jose, CA
2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
That's all fine but you're always going to be stuck with the base geometry of the car's chassis design. Bottom line is if you want a car for road handling, then buy one that's designed that way from the beginning. The W211 (the chassis in question here) is primarily a comfort car and not a super handling car. You can only go so far without redesigning the whole thing. There's a limit to that economically. It can be cheaper (and better) to just choose a different car.
Which is why once Used 2007 E63 price = (used 2010/1 price)/2 I will swap.
