E55Greasemonkey

Part 2 of the test:
Blocked off the #7 post IC, running only the #3 pre SC. Same driving route, although about 3F cooler outside and lower humidity.

Results:

The #3-only pre-SC allowed the intake temps to hit 118F. SC case reading about 20 degrees hotter than both nozzles running; and surge tanks reading about 10 degrees hotter than both nozzles.

Final outcome: #3 pre-supercharger by itself provides little IAT cooling benefit. I forgot to shut the system off to see if it produced any actual result. My fault. However the SC casing felt much cooler than it ever would before the injection system. There is some benefit, possibly more boost.

Here's the good part..the car was an absolute animal. Hitting 3rd gear hard enough to trigger ESP! Strangely the car felt much stronger, crisper, and had more ESP intervention than earlier today, I suspected the cooler drier air was the reason...but it really hasn't changed THAT much in a few hours. Only 3F cooler, maybe drier but it was still wet outside...or was there just too much water in my previous setup?? Hmm..I hope I am on to something here..I was extremely pleased with how the car just felt..where earlier today the car felt a bit flat, and somewhat dissapointing.

Tomorrow, I will swap the 2 nozzles. #7 pre-SC and #3 post-IC, and run them separately as well, weather permitting. A single larger nozzle, pre-SC, if it works, would be very good, due to ease of installation and even mixture/evaporation of the water mist throughout the system.

Kelvin07

Oh man, that is one huge nozzle you're placing pre-SC, everywhere I read the advise is, run a small nozzle pre-blower, even talking to Devil's Own, they advised me to thread carefully, running too big of a nozzle pre-SC could clog it, I'm just saying... Best of luck.

E55Greasemonkey

It's funny I see the opposite advice on other forums? I can tell you though, running only a #3, especially a #1 like they told you, won't do much.

Check this out:

bstudey01

I have also read on other forums that a bigger injector pre S/C is no problem at all, I am considering meth as well and your info is priceless for me. Let me know how the big injector pre s/c works with the one behind the I/C off. Definitely would be the easiest install and should disperse the mix the most evenly

E55Greasemonkey

Swapped the nozzles today. Getting to the post IC nozzle without pulling the supercharger was not fun at all. I had to remove the rubber boot from the bypass valve in pieces, and remove the passenger surge tank (easy part) but got it done in a few hours. I probably could have pulled the supercharger in less time to be honest!

Today's conclusion is at best, I'm seeing 20-30F temp drops at full throttle/boost with the water injection. I hit 128F with only the supercharger nozzle, and 118F with both nozzles. Keep in mind it was 88F outside, and my cruising IAT started around 98F. It's no miracle so far, but I need to stay focused on what the real goal here is. I can't forget this isn't really a power adder. I keep thinking I'm going to feel a nitrous shot (LoL) but that's not what's going on here. Since I am not tuning for the meth, my only aim is to prevent heat soak and keep the power I have. Thinking this way it works...The more I drive the more I can realize this. For those of you who have enough seat time, you know once in a while you punch it, usually from a stop or traffic light, expecting that ridiculous launch and the dizzying torque..and then...bwahhh you think to yourself, WTF just happened as you felt the car somewhat fall on it's face? Well, with the water injection this doesn't happen. I made some full throttle bursts before the off ramp, sat at the light at the end, turned, then another light, then another light!! It was 88F outside today!! Turned into an open road, manually into first and.....POW the car just lurched forward, ESP light flashing like an xmas tree...head back into the headrest. Wow...It's 88F outside!! Usually anything over 80F the car feels a bit sluggish, but not now.

On to the testing. I'm getting a good "feel" now for what nozzle size and how much water the car can handle. The single nozzle post TB and pre SC is no miracle cure. It will not match the temp drop that both nozzles provide. It does cool the SC...but the surge tanks only slightly. One reason I think is because of the intercooler..in some cases the IC may actually be heating the air back up!! But regardless, all the metal after the SC outlet is heatsoked, and needs to be cooled as well!!

The #7 pre SC is too big. The car ran fine, but I have my rain guard and underhood heat blanket removed, and can hear my SC whistle under normal non-boost driving. After a pull or two, crusiing, I could hear the water in the SC, the normal whistle with a gurgling sound, meaning there is still water hanging out in there!! I confirmed it several hours later..removed my intake Y and opened the throttle body..rotated the SC backwards and could fell damp, humid air coming out...it's still wet in there. The #3 post-IC seems a bit small. I'm having less issue with distribution temps from left to right, and after I reconnected it, it did somewhat cool the intake runners.

So what's next? Before I try adding some methanol which I think will drop the temps slightly, due to it's faster evaporation, I'm going to change the nozzles again. I do not like the side injection of the post intercooler nozzle. So, it will be supercharger off, and find a better place probably centered on the bottom shooting up. No way to do any maint. again without pulling the SC, but after today's experience with the lower nozzle it doesn't make much difference. Pulling the SC off, I bet I can have done in 30 minutes. I also have the factory guide pins to hold the gaskets back in place when the SC is laid back down. Makes an easy job. Due to yesterdays one time misfire, I feel the #7 post IC is too big. I'm going to order two #5's for before and after. The top nozzle is easy change..I'll try a #5 there too. If it's still too much, I'll put the #3 back.

One problem I may be having, and I've seen it mentioned, is the boost-based injection amount. Full boost comes on so quick..that I'm pretty much at full injection at 4000 RPM or so...turning the controller for only 50% total injection just doesn't produce much cooling at all. I'm probably in the situation I've seen mentioned where I have too much down low and not enough up top..So I'm working with the nozzles. And I see that pure water does need smaller nozzles than a meth mix. It just doesn't evaporate that quickly. There is only so much heat the straight water can deal with and evaporate.

I will try the two #5's with the possibility of going to a #3 and #5, and later some methanol, maybe 25% mixed in to help with evaporation without getting too rich.

E55Greasemonkey

Curious as to the ambient temps when you made these readings? Based on your 80F start, I'm thinking 60-70F outside? Have you logged your IAT's under boost when it was 85 or 90F outside?

Hulk

Try some windsheild washer aka smurf ****, just to get a little methanol ,maybe 20% so you can use the bigger nozzles

Gadget

The concern I have with the post supercharger nozzle is it may wet the IAT sensor and cause it to give a false reading to the ECU. If the ECU thinks the IAT is much cooler than it really is, it may advance the spark timing to much for the true condition.

Just something to think about.

Run a 50/50 meth to distilled water ratio. Get your methanol from a race gas company so you know for sure what you are getting and use distilled water only to mix it with and shoot it all into the supercharger inlet.

G

E55Greasemonkey

I understand that concept, however my infrared temp readings on the surge tanks match what the IAT sensor reads or very close to it.

I'll pick up a bottle of HEET tomorrow and try it 50/50 with only the SC nozzle.

Will try the HEET tomorrow. Local wallyworld today had summer mix washer fluid..no methanol in the ingredients

Hulk

Goto autozone or discount auto they have the -20F even here in sfl.

StarvingArtist

I'm following this closely, as if it were my future. How about 2 small nozzles post SC, like a pair of #3's to even things out, and a #5 pre SC.

E55Greasemonkey

That is an option I am thinking about.

Today's testing was less than encouraging. I drained the water from the tank, and added 50/50 meth water, using 2 bottles of yellow HEET and same 2 bottles to measure distilled water. I didn't want to run washer fluid- I've seen that stuff clog plenty of washer nozzles and want to keep my meth system clean.

It was hot today. 87 on the cluster but felt like mid 90's. Air was dry though.
I thought the car had really woken up with the meth mix..however it was likely placebo. I ran only the #7 pre-supercharger today. After the dismal results I didn't bother reconnecting the #4 post IC

System ON:
Cruising at 113F IAT, stop and launch, full throttle for a while (longer than yesterdays testing, and on a different road) produced 150F IAT! AFR reading 10.0 at the end. Obviously dumping fuel due to high IAT, plus the meth.

Couldn't believe what I saw, so made another pass with a cool down cruise in-between. System OFF:
Same result!! 113 IAT at launch 150IAT at the end. Identical. Car pulled good, quite surprising with the high IAT. 10.0 AFR. Weird, I ran this same test 1 month ago on the same road and same outside temp,after I modified the intercooler and saw the same IATs, but pretty sure my AF was 10.9 at the lowest. Possibilities..leftover excess mixture in the intake tract/SC from previous run?? Solenoid not sealing causing meth mix to be sucked in? Regardless,there was no improvement in IATs.

Frustrating, couldn't feel any difference in power ON or OFF. Nor could I really with the water only on the highway. I did verify that the system is working, and turning on/off, with the exception of verifying the solenoid is sealing...although it is working on/off, I can hear it click.

Previous to these test runs, some short bursts, pulled over, checked the temps and the SC case and tanks were hot, real hot, didn't seem to be any cooling going on here.

So, there it is. I guess I'll try and add some more water to the mix tomorrow 75/25 and see if any cooling takes place.

Kelvin07

I agree, there is not way your car will run cooler than ambient temp (unless you are using a killer chiller), even running a BIG front mount intercooler will give you at least 10F-20F above ambient.


Run an additional IAT sensor if this is a concern (I do it). Also, if your goal is COOLING?, then run straight water, water's cooling properties are far better than meth.water mix. The problem is, water takes much longer to evaporate than meth (which is basically instantaneous), if you want to cool your SC, I don't see the need to use meth, water is the best for that.



Again, water by itself is much better than 50/50 water/meth if your goal is cooling.

I hear you, I have come to the conclusion that using water/meth alone when your engine is very hot to begin with, makes little to no difference. Because probably you are heat soaked by the time you push the gas pedal.

That is why I bought a killer chiller to keep IAT's low at cruising speeds and water/meth to cool the top end, I spray the mix using a programmable ZT-2 alarm, to go off once I reach several parameters, including, RPM (4500+), TP (55%), IAT (110, I run an independent IAT sensor), and at 8 or 9PSI.

If your thing is cooling, you will need other solutions other than water/meth injection. Some people run a trunk tank with ice during some very hot days or when tracking the car, I personally won't track my car, so all those "racing" solutions, are not my cup of tea.

Are you running a custom tune?

E55Greasemonkey

I have a Eurocharged box tune which seems to be doing good, A/F's look ideal when not completely heat soaked. I have a modified stock intercooler...rewelded into a single pass with 3/4" fittings, 3/4" hose throughout the entire system, split cooling with dual bosch pumps in series. Just a small resevoir. INtercooler wrapped in heat barrier. A lot of work and seems like not much result. Not interested in ice at the track either.

Thinking about going back to straight water, the #3 again pre-SC, it seemed to cool the SC case pretty well, and relocating or running dual nozzles post-intercooler, maybe a #5 there or two #3's. The post IC nozzle does cool the surge tanks, I just think I had too much water spraying. ...Then call it a day. It seems this isn't the miracle cure for IAT. No wonder there isn't much hard data about it for our E55's, like dyno with/without, or 1/4 mile times with it on/off.

Kelvin07

I would highly advise a custom tune to maximize your set up, you have a lot of mods.

Intercooler doesn't help much if your ambient is at 90F, you're still running around town with 115-125 IATs or worse, I speak from experience.

StarvingArtist

I'm hoping you will continue to experiment. Since methanol is flammable, can't you run double the nozzle size at a 50/50 mix?


Hope the 150* doesn't have anything to do with the label on your meth source

Hulk

Run about 10-20% meth with water, meth can really richen up the mixture and sometimes make you lose power, you want to try to stay close to the afr from your tune, unless you tune for meth then you use 100% meth and gain good power but if tuned for meth and something goes wrong you can damage the motor

rockthemullet

You would be correct. I generally see a 15±3°F difference between ambient and my IATs. Unfortunately (or fortunately), I haven't seen 85-90°F ambient temps since I installed the injection system late last year. I'm up in Michigan.

An update from before the weekend, I did some pulls and checked the distribution between the two surge tanks. I did notice a very slight temperature difference between the left and right tanks coming out of the Y-pipe but toward the middle of the tanks this difference was negligible. I may still change to two nozzles in the future but just for piece of mind. (for reference I'm running a single #7 post IC)

I'm very interested in this. I just picked up the ZT-2 with some goodies to better datalog. Previously, I couldn't log my AFRs with the rest of my parameters and that bothered me. I'm using the Cooling Mist kit and the solenoid uses boost for actuation but I worry that it's not dependable enough. Can you tell me how you have this alarm wired and what extra components you needed to pick up from Zeitronix?

Hulk

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zavt/zavt.shtml

rockthemullet

Ah, I did browse that, should've taken a closer look. Thanks Hulk!

Denroll

Adding that IAT parameter might not be such a good idea. Whenever it cools below 110 (which is almost instantly once the spray hits), it will shut off the alarm signal and stop the pump. You'd end up with this weird ^v^v^v on/off oscillation and it's pretty close to that 120 degree timing reduction threshold.

Do you have the audible alarm turned on on the alarm module?

Joncl

e55greasemonkey after reading your post and the trouble you have had with the devils own kit is it possible it wasn't spraying because no difference in iat between system on and off doesn't sound right no what matter mixture

Kelvin07

I see your point, I won't include the IAT parameter.

Denroll

I know what you were thinking as I thought the same thing when I was setting mine up. It would be nice to have a way to customize that parameter further to say "When temp = xxx degrees, then this parameter will = true for xx seconds"

E55Greasemonkey

Kelvin,

I will have Eurocharged dyno-tune me after I have the meth system worked out, and not for a few months until the weather cools again.

Joncl,

The system is working, I checked everything, read below why there was no difference on/off.

Starving artist:

"I'm hoping you will continue to experiment. Since methanol is flammable, can't you run double the nozzle size at a 50/50 mix?"

No, that will give me too much fuel!!

Today's tests, luckily close to the same weather as yesterday: I added the rest of the gallon of water to the system..so, somewhere around 80% water 20% Methanol.

It was hot today...ambient 91F. My IR temp gun crapped out so no hard numbers..but could feel the heat differences with my hand.

First run, now with more water, only #7 pre SC.
Same result as yesterday 50/50 mix:Starting at 113 IAT, at top of run IAT hit 150F. However, after,supercharger case, was able to hold hand on it; yesterday too hot to touch. So, now more water means we are cooling again.But, no effect on IAT reading. Surge tanks too hot to touch.

Reconnect #3 post IC (also with #7 still connected). Repeat run. Beginning IAT slightly higer at 116F. IAT peaks quickly and holds at 122F. Continue through pull IAT continues to hold 122F. AFR at 10.5-10.6. After run, SC cooler to touch, tanks able to hold hand on top. NO noticeable difference from L to R side tanks.

1st Conclusion: #7 spraying into the SC has no effect on IAT, even if SC case is somewhat cool. Theories...Not enough volume? The mixture may be evaporating completely before it exits the SC...A bit scared to go #10 or #12 before SC. Or, discharge temp of SC high enough to heat whatever remaining water mixture is coming out ? I'm not a scientist, who knows? Or, intercooler core reheating fluid? I am going to call Devilsown and pick their brain..can I run a bigger nozzle pre-sc? This would be the ultimate setup if it worked..easy to get to, equal distribution. Intercooler may be the thing keeping this idea from working. Too much fluid will pool when it hits.

2nd conclusion: It seems a nozzle post IC is 100% needed to cool IATs. 122F IAT on a hot day, with 116 IAT cruising is impressive in itself. To only gain 6F from cruise (actually stopped) to full throttle pull of 7-8 seconds is damn good. I don't know the physics of heat transfer, but perhaps 30F~ increase over ambient incoming air is the limit, no matter what. How low can it go? The smaller the nozzle here, the less likely to cause temp difference between left and right sides. I am thinking the smaller water fan spray is the reason. Other thought- the nozzle is so close to IAT sensor, it doesn't have enough time to evaporate and show a lower IAT like what would be seen in the surge tank. However, it is working, as after this run I could hold my hand on the surge tanks. 1st run, could not. Also, the SC is cooler..likely because the intake runners are part of the casting, when those are cooled it helps keep the entire SC assembly cool.

What's next? A call to Devilsown, problem is I lost my voice today. Questions are- can I run a larger single nozzle pre-SC. May order some #5 nozzle for before and after.

The slight meth mix, although the AF was a bit rich..seemed to make the car respond better and more forgiving with the water injection. Of course, it's flammable..my theory..the water does not burn at 100%, and takes up space in the combustion chamber. Adding this small amount of fuel replaces that space. I think a 10% mix would be even better and put my AFR almost back to normal. That little bit of blend seems to make everything run better.